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  1. #21
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    Critical Thinking and Hemlock

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Why spend so much time on something you seem to dislike so much? Are you trying to convert us away from MBTI? Or what?
    It's called Critical Thinking. It is an acquired taste.

    And Critical Thinking is appropriate at the Tertiary Level of education. At the Primary and Secondary Levels, we are learning our culture, but at the Tertiary Level we learn to critique our culture.

    Critical Thinking causes cognitive dissonance which is emotionally painful and so is inappropriate to those learning at the Primary and Secondary Levels.

    However the cognitive dissonance of Critical Thinking is like stretching an unused muscle, and the more we stretch it, the more supple we become.

    And also the reward of Critical Thinking is the discovery of new insights.

    Western Civilization began our journey in Critical Thinking 3,000 years ago in Ancient Greece with the philosopher Socrates.

    And Socrates was poisoned by those who felt the same way about Socrates as you feel about me.
    Last edited by Mole; 12-05-2012 at 09:45 PM.

  2. #22
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It's called Critical Thinking. It is an acquired taste.

    And Critical Thinking is appropriate at the Tertiary Level of education. At the Primary and Secondary Levels, we are learning our culture, but at the Tertiary Level we learn to critique our culture.

    Critical Thinking, though, is emotionally painful and so is inappropriate to those learning at the Primary and Secondary Levels.

    However the emotional pain of Critical Thinking is like stretching an unused muscle, and the more we stretch it, the more supple we become.

    And also the reward of Critical Thinking is the discovery of new insights.

    Western Civilization began our journey in Critical Thinking 3,000 years ago in Ancient Greece with the philosopher Socrates.

    And Socrates was poisoned by those who felt the same way about Socrates as you feel about me.
    Well, if you consider yourself the equivalent of Socrates (and me of one of the poisoners) I guess there is no more to be said...
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  3. #23
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Victor is a fixture here. I'd actually miss these threads if Victor went away.

    Victor is just Victor.

  4. #24
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It's called Critical Thinking. It is an acquired taste.

    And Critical Thinking is appropriate at the Tertiary Level of education. At the Primary and Secondary Levels, we are learning our culture, but at the Tertiary Level we learn to critique our culture.

    Critical Thinking, though, is emotionally painful and so is inappropriate to those learning at the Primary and Secondary Levels.

    However the emotional pain of Critical Thinking is like stretching an unused muscle, and the more we stretch it, the more supple we become.

    And also the reward of Critical Thinking is the discovery of new insights.

    Western Civilization began our journey in Critical Thinking 3,000 years ago in Ancient Greece with the philosopher Socrates.

    And Socrates was poisoned by those who felt the same way about Socrates as you feel about me.
    Interesting points on critical thinking and I believe we have crossed paths on this subject before.

    However for me critical thinking has a purpose, it throws open the often unwelcome perspectives on the subject of it's examination to allow new perspectives as you said. And through these perspectives do people change their approach to themselves, each other and the world around them.

    But I think of it as a privilege to the cognitive reasoning abilities of an individual...if that individual is not careful with their critical considerations they can find that they are JUST critiquing alone, without any purpose or real consideration. To the point that all they do is tear down, without wondering if what they are tearing down truely is as subject to the critical elements such thinking observed in the first place.

    Afterall everything can become a delusional state of perception. Or perhaps it always is. But often I find it is a good idea to build upon what has been torn down. Although this is not possible with all subjects.

    Especially those that only exist to be examined critically; usually that which is taken inherently by many without critical thinking.

    As for insults...I agree with your explanation of belonging and the inducing of others to worthlessness because they are outside the group. But I think you dont divide it enough.

    The groupings you present represent a rather strict 'me vs them' attitude. By that same token an individual can make themselves worthless under the assumption of a representative performing a group attack, regardless of whether the attacks exist under that banner or not. But there are groups within groups and there is no single person who is without a group in some form, even if it is merely one person to another. This does not stop such individuals who, by a strange twist of irony, enjoy the idea that they are opposed by a group.

    Afterall what greater way to nuture the sense of self and it's identity than to picture one's self as opposing an army of worshippers or a collective, whose only goal is to assimilate all dislikeable dissenters to their ranks, or else cast them out and destroy them.

    Yet that type of person will only end up creating their own situation, all the while believing or perceiving that an attack has been launched under the guise of group demand. What a terrifying existence that must be.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

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    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
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  5. #25
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So what is an insult? An insult is like spitting in someone's face. It is showing our victim is worthless.

    And we show our victim is worthless because we want to belong, we want to them to be like us. We want them to be worthless like us. So we insult them in order to belong.
    An insult cannot show someone is worthless; that requires an objective critique. An insult simply reveals the subjective opinion of the speaker about the other person. I see insults used more often to try to exclude someone, and make the point that they do not belong. ("You're not like us; you don't measure up to our standards somehow. You are different, and not in a good way.")

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And Critical Thinking is appropriate at the Tertiary Level of education. At the Primary and Secondary Levels, we are learning our culture, but at the Tertiary Level we learn to critique our culture.

    Critical Thinking, though, is emotionally painful and so is inappropriate to those learning at the Primary and Secondary Levels.
    Critical thinking is appropriate at every level of education. If people grow up with it, they will probably not find it so painful as do those exposed to it only later in life.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Western Civilization began our journey in Critical Thinking 3,000 years ago in Ancient Greece with the philosopher Socrates.

    And Socrates was poisoned by those who felt the same way about Socrates as you feel about me.
    Why do you typically have to ruin your provocative ideas by tacking on these personal slights at the end, that put down those you disagree with and elevate you to someone smarter than them? Or why not take it in the other direction for once? In this way, you are contributing to your own cycle of discontent here... you end up either rightly being criticized, or people simply isolate themselves from you, and you help create your own situation.

    Some people here are frustrated by you, but I don't think people want to murder you. I also think it would be helpful if people worked harder to understand your ideas, and you worked harder to communicate in ways you know would better convey your insights.

    ... but whatever. You certainly already know all that.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    I respectfully disagree Victor. I know you and I have had disagreements in the past, but I would say the reason the insults exist is to demarcate delineations between the respective individuals. It's a way of associating -against- of non-identification not to feel shared worthlessness, but to intimate superiority so that the group(s) the individual is signalling to will identify with the aforementioned and accept them into their clan
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Why do you typically have to ruin your provocative ideas by tacking on these personal slights at the end, that put down those you disagree with and elevate you to someone smarter than them?
    I agree this is a character flaw of mine. And I do it out of malice and to shore up my fragile ego.

    I doubt if I can put an end to my malice or even shore up my ego.

    So I guess this is the price you pay for my provocative ideas.

    The alternative is to put me on Ignore.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Well, if you consider yourself the equivalent of Socrates (and me of one of the poisoners) I guess there is no more to be said...
    I am Western and so Socrates is my inheritance. And as I intend to spend my inhertance profligately, Western Civilization will continue to flower. Every day I pick a flower to wear in my buttonhole to remind me I am a son of Socrates.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    An insult cannot show someone is worthless; that requires an objective critique. An insult simply reveals the subjective opinion of the speaker about the other person.
    Insults hurt us emotionally, insults smart, insults cut us to the quick, and so insults mobilize our emotional defences.

    This is because insults are intersubjective.

    No man is an island, and insults link our subjective islands.

    One of the advantages of homo sapiens, conferred by natural selection, is that we are intersubjective. In other words, I can know what you are thinking and feeling and you can know what I am thinking and feeling.

    And intersubjectivity makes civilization possible. Intersubjectivity makes lying possible, and so advertising, and so propaganda, and so education, and even conversation. Without intersubjectivity, Central would be impossible.

    Without intersubjectivity I wouldn't be able to lie to you, but trust me, I would only lie to you if I could get away with it.

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