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  1. #21
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Because it is quite simple to transition one-on-one communications to forum posting.

    For example this post right here, I quoted you, and I'm responding to you. Very much like one-on-one, only everyone can read it.

    LOL, I'd like to see the day we'd have to ban you!
    But then I jump in, and suddenly it's not like one-on-one, because I become a second unit to deal with, as I say comparing this communication to one-on-one communication is flawed. I should know first hand, because I really feel more comfortable with talking to one person at a time, alone. I don't become actively incourteous in a crowed, but I think I become passively incourteous, because I get overwhelmed and then effectiveyl disconnect from reality (at which point, don't expect me to respond to "excuse me").

    And further more, my international relations analogy is a lot more accurate than anyone is acknowledging.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I don't buy this argument either.
    Either? It wasn't an argument, it was a statement. I have no "argument" to put forth as it applies to the banning. Jennifer states it - the measurement that matters is public civility. The Mods stance should only be that - it is a flawed argument to support it by saying there are no behavioral differences for individuals in different social contexts. It weakens the fundamental point.

    We're not just talking about being socially FLUID in both domains, we're talking about being civil and courteous.
    Introducing your own definitions to segment similar concepts does not change what is being described, no more than it excuses social behavior. Anyway, fluid is not a separate measurement from civility, they are continiums in this case.

    Civility and courtesy are skills that you don't suddenly FORGET when you're in a crowd, you just willingly neglect them.
    Self control under stress, such as in the introverted example, are not under "willful control".

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    But then I jump in, and suddenly it's not like one-on-one, because I become a second unit to deal with, as I say comparing this communication to one-on-one communication is flawed. I should know first hand, because I really feel more comfortable with talking to one person at a time, alone. I don't become actively incourteous in a crowed, but I think I become passively incourteous, because I get overwhelmed and then effectiveyl disconnect from reality (at which point, don't expect me to respond to "excuse me").

    And further more, my international relations analogy is a lot more accurate than anyone is acknowledging.
    Yes, but then I j-j-just simply adjus-s-s-s-s-s

    {censored} you, you {censored} little {censored}!!!1!!!!

    I can't handle it!!!!!!!!!!!!

  4. #24
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Introducing your own definitions to segment similar concepts does not change what is being described, no more than it excuses social behavior.
    Aheh. Wha? I wasn't CHANGING what was being described, I was clarifying.

    Anyway, fluid is not a separate measurement from civility, they are continiums in this case.
    No they're not. They're related, but that doesn't mean they can't be independently measured or independently preserved by a person. I can be courteous and shy together, or discourteous and extraverted. The fact that they exist on a continuum is questionable and irrelevant.

    Self control under stress, such as in the introverted example, are not under "willful control".
    Maybe, but why do you automatically assume that public discourse is stressful? Maybe it just creates conditions for anonymity and irresponsibility.

  5. #25
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Yes, but then I j-j-just simply adjus-s-s-s-s-s
    {censored} you, you {censored} little {censored}!!!1!!!!
    I can't handle it!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Now look.
    You made a clown cry.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Maybe, but why do you automatically assume that public discourse is stressful? Maybe it just creates conditions for anonymity and irresponsibility.
    You can name the prompts to different behavior however you wish. It's simply not accurate to say that 1:1 and 1:many are equal conditions, or that people respond equally. It is also irrelevant, as the behavior is the issue and what the judgment should be based on. Doesn't matter if people are rude 1:1, or 1:many, either is sufficient to be a nuisance.

    (But I have to ask, how do "public" discourses create conditions for anonymity over private conversations...? You mean play to an audience, I presume. Or be afraid of social rejection. Or any number of factors unique to public conditions? Because that's what I'm talking about.)

  7. #27
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    This is going to be my last post. You can respond afterwards if you'd like.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    You can name the prompts to different behavior however you wish. It's simply not accurate to say that 1:1 and 1:many are equal conditions, or that people respond equally.
    True, but this is also a argument. No one argued that they're equal in every way which is what "respond equally" means, only that there are certain traits, like civility, that survive the transition from private to public discourse. That's all that's needed to make sense of the original statement questioning the assertion that someone can "suck" at foruming but other be a swell, likable guy.

    It is also irrelevant, as the behavior is the issue and what the judgment should be based on. Doesn't matter if people are rude 1:1, or 1:many, either is sufficient to be a nuisance.
    ?

    (But I have to ask, how do "public" discourses create conditions for anonymity over private conversations...? You mean play to an audience, I presume. Or be afraid of social rejection. Or any number of factors unique to public conditions? Because that's what I'm talking about.)
    Here's the first link I found. The Impact of Anonymity on Disinhibitive Behavior Through Computer-Mediated Communication This thesis looks at anonymity when people post in a newsgroup.

    "Over the years, technological advancements in communication have allowed us to reach out and touch someone even as computers have managed to physically isolates us. Computer-mediated communication, for example, allows us to contact thousands of people within seconds without actually standing in their presence. This anonymity affects how we perceive each other and ourselves, how we interact with these perceptions of others, and the degree to which our social environment restricts us.

    Many users feel uninhibited and unrestrained because of a lack of social context cues and therefore exhibit more "disinhibition" in the form of insults, swearing, and hostile language (Walther, 1993) than if they were communicating in a face-to-face situation with the same people (Siegel, Kiesler and McGuire, 1984). The lack of social context cues can cause excited and uninhibited communication..."

    In my own words, when you talk to people privately, they're the only ones that read it. When you talk to people publicly, multiple people read it. It doesn't feel like you're talking to one person, but to the forum. So, other people become anonymous. You also don't feel like anyone's watching you as intently, because you're just one name with one post in a sea of posts, as opposed to conditions in private discourse. Anonymity, disinhibition, and violence is pretty well established, both in research and experience. "Mob mentality" is a classic example...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangingMinds.org
    We normally carry our sense of identity around with us and are thus well aware of how we are relating to other people. There are ways, however of losing ourselves, including:
    • Becoming a part of a large group, such as a mob or army.
    • Becoming engrossed in an interesting task, such as a hobby.
    • Meditation and other contemplative activities.

    Deindividuation into a group results in a loss of individual identity and a gaining of the social identity of the group. When two groups argue (and crowd problems are often between groups), it is like two people arguing. The three most important factors for deindividuation in a group of people are:
    1. Anonymity, so I can not be found out.
    2. Diffused responsibility, so I am not responsible for my actions.
    3. Group size, as a larger group increases the above two factors.

    When you are in a group, you may feel a shared responsibility and so less individual responsibility for your actions. In this way a morally questionable act may seem less personally wrong. You may also feel a strong need to conform to social norms.
    I'm going to split this conversation into a new thread. It's interesting and also tangential.

  8. #28
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Moved from Forum Announcement.

  9. #29
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    For some, there is quite a difference between private (1-on-1) discourse vs. public discourse. Some people are just more reserved, and prefer 1-on-1 conversations. The rudeness difference may result from distrust in a public (group) situation. At the same time, a person should have more control over his/her courtesy in public vs. private situations.

  10. #30
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    I had a couple of PMs with Nihilen & after he explained his point came across as a thoughtful fellow. As Night said, his only problem (and it's a big one) is his inability to make his point in a way people may take less offence to.

    That said, he was fine person-2-person; he just sucked at posting. And came across as a dick - even though I don't think he is one or intended to be.
    I'm not defending him. I have no idea what he did to get banned in the first place. Seems from reading this thread that he might have some behavior quirks. Would he be the same person if he did not have those quirks? Does he provide value to society as he is? I can't answer that question because I don't know him. What strikes me is people's obsession with him. I don't know if that says much of anything. People also get obsessed with people who have a negative impact on society.

    after he explained his point came across as a thoughtful fellow
    If he does have these behavioral issues, and assuming based on this quote that he's not a sociopath, how would he go about correcting them? Does anyone know that he has a clear idea of what it is that offends people?



    UPDATE:
    Quote Originally Posted by TheChosenOne View Post
    The rudeness difference
    This explains it. People think he's rude. I can see now how my "sense of humor" can come off as rudeness. I find something assuming, other people find it rude. I did say I am socially retarded.

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