Toxic Leaders On The Rise And Taking Society Down

[Mind Maverick]

This is becoming vague almost to the point of tautology, and I didn't need to assume your thoughts to explain mine. You can decide whether you agree with them or not. Even in the realm of ideas, it is simplistic to assume animosity among people with different opinions, or monolithic thought within a group sharing similar opinions.

In addition to what you've said here, even if this were to come about, it'd only further support the idea that psychological education is important, considering that's the very thing that actually aims to work through the underlying problems that can be seen in the concerns that Dareyth has expressed that she has. Some examples are conflict resolution, emotion management, healthy and effective communication, empathizing and listening to others, and not simply invalidating their side.

The problem isn't in how we think, but how we deal with different thoughts outside of our own that we disagree with. Humans generally demonize the outgroup and rationalize unfounded beliefs as to why they could possibly believe it. That there, lies in the problems. Humans stopped seeing people as humans. They only see them as flaws, or something that is stupid/needs to be educated. Instead of respecting them as an individual of equal quality, and intellect.

Everything talked about here only further supports the idea that education IS needed in this particular instance. What's essentially being implied here is that people need to learn healthier ways to navigate disagreements and conflicts; effective emotional coping skills so that they manage their anger more appropriately, which helps to prevent emotional reactions that go too far, and it enables people to actually present and express their concerns, feelings, opinions, judgment, etc. appropriately and without all of this hostility described; empathy, which promotes listening and understanding (and should be taught to children early on because if you look at narcissism as an example, it's not born, it's made, and this is in part done through kids not learning empathy and by parents neglecting the child's emotional needs while recognizing and promoting achievements). The very thing that's being rejected here is the one thing that would actually offer solutions to the problems that are presented in this argument.

Furthermore, I honestly don't think that this is a catch 22 at all if you're not thinking of things in black and white, all or nothing (no offense, just examining all of this as only information, as if it were only a puzzle, not as some kind of personal fault or something). The reason is that there are some times when education genuinely is needed in response to someone being incorrect, and what's being implied here is that it's somehow wrong to hold or share that opinion, or suggest education as a solution to what someone perceives as misalignment with the truth. If someone says, "COVID-19 is not contagious," it's very appropriate and helpful to suggest education as a solution. It's something we know for a fact is completely false. The problem doesn't lie in saying that some idea is wrong and that the people who disagree need to be educated, but in poorly managed emotion (anger, frustration, impatience, etc.) causing people to express that opinion in inappropriate ways and to navigate these disagreements in inappropriate ways.

Tbh, it reminds me of toddlers. Toddlers throw tantrums and act out, but as part of the growing process they need to learn that it's no longer appropriate to use emotional reactions as communication the way they did as a baby, they now have to advance beyond this phase of development. Hopefully, they're also being taught that using their words and being well behaved is a more effective method for getting the results they want by seeing that the parents aren't succumbing to their feelings from the tantrums and that it's also easier for their needs/wants to be met when the parent actually know what the child needs/wants.

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Out of time for now, I'll reply to other things later...but I will quickly add

Aerix referenced the idea of teaching kids what is "normal" as well, but as you point out, normal will vary with culture. At times kids were taught it wasn't "normal" if their mother worked outside the home, especially in a well-paying position of authority. Some kids today are still being told it isn't "normal" to have two dads or two moms. I like instead the focus on what is good for the child. Working mothers and same sex parents cannot be shown to be harmful for children, for instance, and in some cases have been shown to have benefits.

What I was really trying to say when I used the word "normal" was more along the lines of healthy VS unhealthy...understanding that things like gaslighting, incest, punching the kid, spanking them so much and so hard that they're bruised and bleeding by the end of it, etc. are not normal or acceptable no matter what your culture is. In my original post I provided a link to a post that was written by a girl who was taught at a young age by her parents to perform sexual acts on her father and didn't know it was abnormal until she left home to go to college, so much that this did not stop until then. They told her she would die without her "medicine" (his semen) and needed to "take her medicine every day." If she had known something was wrong and had a safe place to tell someone (counselor at school) years of damage could've been avoided and she could've gone through therapy as a kid for what already took place rather than shaping her life all the way into adulthood, affecting her relationships in adulthood, etc.

Whether two parents of the same sex is harmful or not is very controversial, but you wouldn't go to therapy and have a therapist say "whoa, wait, that's not normal, let's work on you getting away from that toxic situation for your own well-being." I'd definitely never suggest that this should begin happening, either. This should really be left up to parents and not included in schools.

Where I see a problem with things is in topics like transgenderism, which psychologists and some parents may have vastly different views on. As a solution to things like this, parent permission could be required beforehand for the child to participate.



Culture was mostly (but not completely) irrelevant to my suggestions, as I was not suggesting that people should be taught how to think or behave to that extent. My idea was more along the lines of things like...

• "This is what abuse is, and it's not okay for you to be treated like this."

• "Here are some coping strategies to use when you're being bullied at school (rather than so many kids going to school and shooting people or going home and committing suicide)."

• "Your parents fighting with each other all the time is not your fault. Don't blame yourself."

• "This is what healthy romantic relationships look like (including normal arguing) and what kinds of behaviors are toxic (compare to name calling, attacking self-esteem, excessive aggression, coercion, domestic violence, etc)."

• "How to change negative thinking and defeat your inner critic."

• "Self-acceptance and other keys to healthy self-esteem and self-image (you are not stupid, worthless, undeserving of good things, etc.)."

• "What kinds of things are safe to base your sense of value for yourself on (like being a kind person), and what should you avoid basing it on (like receiving approval, validation from others, and conditional love)"

• "What are some good habits that can help you stay positive and happy (such as thinking of things you're grateful for, setting and accomplishing goals, exercise, doing little things that make you feel good about yourself - whatever that may be, not doing things that make you feel bad about yourself such as being too lazy, etc.)"

• "Being mindful of your values when dealing with people in authority (Milgram)"

• "How to recognize when your empathy is being taken advantage of (avoiding being an enabler, giving more chances than you should, etc.)"

• "Effective coping strategies for difficult things everyone goes through such as breakups, deaths"

• "Friendship building skills"

• "How to deal with difficult people"

• "Ways you can assert your boundaries without aggression (not peer pressure only, but it's one example)"

• "Healing your insecurities"

• "Recognizing and dealing with your things that trigger you"

• "Guarding yourself from emotional manipulation"

• "Compromising and negotiating"

• "How to get through teenage difficulties like finding who you are and what your place in the world is"

• "Coping with stress in healthy ways"

I don't think I need to add more, you get my point.

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I have more thoughts I'd like to add to other things on this thread later as well.

 

[Mind Maverick]

In response to the idea that it should be up to parents and not a part of standardized education...I would argue that toxicity is passed on through generations. People need to first learn to be healthy in order to raise kids in healthier ways. Educating people on how to be healthy has to begin somewhere.

Interest and engagement may be difficult in some ways, but I actually think this subject would naturally grab peoples' attention more than what we see in schools now. What they're studying isn't just grammar rules, formatting essays, math problems, what happened way back in year whatever which had nothing to do with them. I guarantee you that teenage girls caught up in their relationships (typical teenage girl tbh) are going to hear it when you start talking about what relationships should be like, and they're going to be comparing their past and current relationships are like to what they're hearing, and that's going to plant seeds in her mind if her standards and expectations should be higher. She's going to realize there is better out there, and that if she leaves it doesn't mean she'll never find someone else because she's so horrible (which their partner convinces her of). When she's 26 years old and deciding whether to get married to a particular person, she's going to look back on when she learned about healthy relationships and make more educated decisions about this person she's considering settling down and having kids with (impactful on many things: divorce rate, domestic violence / child abuse and therefore mental illness, overall quality of life ["baby mama drama" lol], sometimes career choices, sometimes financial hardships that result from relationships gone wrong, the example the kids have, etc.). When you talk about struggles with self-esteem, how people feel when they have low self-esteem, and the inner critic, and that hits home because they're extremely self-critical, they're going to hear you. When you start showing them how to deal with difficult parents they're forced to live with as minors, they're going to listen. These are things that pertain to their everyday lives, things that affect them on an emotional level, things they're already trying to navigate as it is.

 

[The Cat]

In response to the idea that it should be up to parents and not a part of standardized education...I would argue that toxicity is passed on through generations. People need to first learn to be healthy in order to raise kids in healthier ways. Educating people on how to be healthy has to begin somewhere.

Interest and engagement may be difficult in some ways, but I actually think this subject would naturally grab peoples' attention more than what we see in schools now. What they're studying isn't just grammar rules, formatting essays, math problems, what happened way back in year whatever which had nothing to do with them. I guarantee you that teenage girls caught up in their relationships (typical teenage girl tbh) are going to hear it when you start talking about what relationships should be like, and they're going to be comparing their past and current relationships are like to what they're hearing, and that's going to plant seeds in her mind if her standards and expectations should be higher. She's going to realize there is better out there, and that if she leaves it doesn't mean she'll never find someone else because she's so horrible (which their partner convinces her of). When she's 26 years old and deciding whether to get married to a particular person, she's going to look back on when she learned about healthy relationships and make more educated decisions about this person she's considering settling down and having kids with (impactful on many things: divorce rate, domestic violence / child abuse and therefore mental illness, overall quality of life ["baby mama drama" lol], sometimes career choices, sometimes financial hardships that result from relationships gone wrong, the example the kids have, etc.). When you talk about struggles with self-esteem, how people feel when they have low self-esteem, and the inner critic, and that hits home because they're extremely self-critical, they're going to hear you. When you start showing them how to deal with difficult parents they're forced to live with as minors, they're going to listen. These are things that pertain to their everyday lives, things that affect them on an emotional level, things they're already trying to navigate as it is.

And who, (or whom?) gets to decide what "should" looks like?

 

[Maou]

I think child birthing and raising is a human right, even if parents do it like shit. The potential for good parenting, which can greatly impact psychological health, is still present in society. Just because everyone doesn't get a good one, doesn't mean it needs torn down. I don't really have any faith in the government, or any institutuon, teaching people how to be good people. Sure, it might help some of the toxicity, but you are fucking around with one of the most natural and fundamental parts of society that breeds individuality, personality, and diversity of thought. This be some dystopian shit.

I don't think certain ideas/feelings can exist, without some struggle on the expense of a few individuals. Take into account, how much this would affect the population's personalities if you completely abolished the family and have everyone raised by state mandated educational child rearing centers from the ground up. How souless would this eventually become. Sounds a lot like "The island".

 

[SirCanSir]

I agree that children should have access to knowledge that could encourage them to think critically about their circumstances at home, their possible psychological or mental issues and the standards relationships should be held to be healthy. That said as the school system is right now, this idea would be a far cry from being realized. That is because of the most fundamental issue education has, the teaching methods dont adapt to individuals but to the mass. Its obvious that those kind of problems are extremely personal in their required approach so if a kid doesnt talk with a professional in a 1 on 1 session i doubt that stating the general impact of disorders and naming a few of them is going to help at expanding their understanding at all.

Telling a kid about the existence of s psychological issue and how to resolve it, wont automatically make the kid aware of it nor interested in taking the lesson seriously. Thats because kids usually understand the best what is relatable and relevant to their lives. So unless you find a kid who sees something in that said lesson as relatable, its most likely that the lesson will be treated as social science/education, music, "education around professions" (i really dont remember how half of them are spelled right now, not to mention several others i ve forgotten and that says a lot about the treatment those subjects get in school) and so many others none took seriously in their school years because they were taught in a method that requires memorizing unfamiliar words and concepts for the sake of "knowledge" instead of focusing in the individual understanding and application of that knowledge.

My point is that no matter how serious a subject is, kids will eventually only take seriously, what they enjoy, find relatable or what is relevant (what is required for them to get to a college or uni). The rest will be treated as a joke. And i cant blame them, thats how kids are, they learn through experience and they reject anything forced on them. So that is a subject that cant be taught in the traditional way since it would only be useless. Imagine having to mark children on their ability to recall disorder terms. Talk about making them hate the subject even more.

If it could be implemented differently though, in a way that would develop their own understanding through research and would boost their critical thinking.... then yes, that is actually the only way the reinforcement this addition would provide would be significant.

In conclusion, i think that children need to be educated in order to have better self awareness and be able to judge or accept the ways their family treats them so they can speak up if they need to before its too late. That said this cant be implemented through shallow means like teaching the masses of the existence of something they dont understand or trust. They need to reach to the conclusion on their own instead. Mental health matters are complicated because nothing can be resolved if the patient themselves isnt self aware.

PS: I agree with what yami says though im not sure what she is replying to. Its impossible to raise everyone to be the same way anyway. Teach them how to research and understand on their own instead.

 

[Mind Maverick]

And who, (or whom?) gets to decide what "should" looks like?

No different than who "decides" it--which I would argue is learning it--now. Trained professionals. What goes into it when they do though? Research, studying, examples, experience with similar cases. What goes into it when the child "decides" what these things "should" look like without having any of that? These kinds of decisions have to be made one way or another. Isn't it better for people to at least make more educated decisions based on learning about studies, etc. that have been done, and based on the guidance of trained people who study and work with these things professionally on a daily basis? If decisions must be made, at least make educated ones. The alternative without it is pretty much just inexperienced young people with no education on the matters, and whose prefrontal cortexes (involved in making judgment calls) are not even fully developed. Would we let a toddler just walk out to the street for them to learn to look before crossing? Or do we educate them and warn them of what's ahead and how to stay safe? Do schools not already try to teach about bullying and peer pressure (albeit in horribly stupid ways)? Who decided that was what should be done? What I'm talking about is no different than what's already out there in the psychology world today...we already can go to therapy and listen to these professionals explain what's healthy and what isn't.

People get very protective and cautious when you say things should involve authority because they think it might be too imposing, controlling, etc. but educating people is not the same as taking away someone's free will, it's still their lives and they're still able to make whatever choices they want, the difference is that now they can take more into consideration when they do and have better control over how their lives play out. Furthermore, it's really not much different than the way people already learn in college. Who "decides" what contents are in those courses, and what "should" be done in therapy?

Even in cases where psychology is inaccurate, like...at least you're then TRYING to do the best you can despite our limitations as human beings...that's a lot better than basically just being clueless and blindsided...

 

[Mind Maverick]

Will reply more later but real quick, what I'm saying is not parenting, and it's not a substitute for parenting. What I'm talking about is stuff that parents don't even have the professional skills / training / knowledge to know themselves. Seriously, how many kids can go up to their moms and say, "Hey mom, what's narcissism? How do I recognize the signs of a [insert controlling, manipulative, abusive, narcissistic, or whatever else here] friend or partner?" and then receive an actual educated response such as "they try to keep you isolated from your friends and family, they try to make you feel like no one else will love you, they gaslight you, they play the victim to gain your sympathies for X, Y, and Z reasons," etc.?

 

[The Cat]

No different than who "decides" it--which I would argue is learning it--now. Trained professionals. What goes into it when they do though? Research, studying, examples, experience with similar cases. What goes into it when the child "decides" what these things "should" look like without having any of that? These kinds of decisions have to be made one way or another. Isn't it better for people to at least make more educated decisions based on learning about studies, etc. that have been done, and based on the guidance of trained people who study and work with these things professionally on a daily basis? If decisions must be made, at least make educated ones. The alternative without it is pretty much just inexperienced young people with no education on the matters, and whose prefrontal cortexes (involved in making judgment calls) are not even fully developed. Would we let a toddler just walk out to the street for them to learn to look before crossing? Or do we educate them and warn them of what's ahead and how to stay safe? Do schools not already try to teach about bullying and peer pressure (albeit in horribly stupid ways)? Who decided that was what should be done? What I'm talking about is no different than what's already out there in the psychology world today...we already can go to therapy and listen to these professionals explain what's healthy and what isn't.

People get very protective and cautious when you say things should involve authority because they think it might be too imposing, controlling, etc. but educating people is not the same as taking away someone's free will, it's still their lives and they're still able to make whatever choices they want, the difference is that now they can take more into consideration when they do and have better control over how their lives play out. Furthermore, it's really not much different than the way people already learn in college. Who "decides" what contents are in those courses, and what "should" be done in therapy?

Even in cases where psychology is inaccurate, like...at least you're then TRYING to do the best you can despite our limitations as human beings...that's a lot better than basically just being clueless and blindsided...

all this has happened before and all of it will happen again. The wheel in the sky keeps on turning, and the more things change the more they remain the same. You're gonna have to serve somebody...

 

[Virtual ghost]

And who, (or whom?) gets to decide what "should" looks like?

People and the experts should nudge things in a right way and try to root out evidently wrong things through clear communication.
It really isn't rocket science. Especially if you manage to quiet down all the shit that is coming from pseudo professional media.

 

[The Cat]

People and the experts should nudge things in a right way and try to root out evidently wrong things through clear communication.
It really isn't rocket science. Especially if you manage to quiet down all the shit that is coming from pseudo professional media.

Of course...."if"....

 

[Mind Maverick]

all this has happened before and all of it will happen again. The wheel in the sky keeps on turning, and the more things change the more they remain the same. You're gonna have to serve somebody...

So what would you suggest? Do nothing just because it seems hopeless?

 

[The Cat]

So what would you suggest? Do nothing just because it seems hopeless?

Not at all, I'm merely curious. Things don't particularly seem hopeless to me. No walk in the park either. But then nothing is.