[SJ] Responding to an SJ

[Fidelia]

StormySunshine, I very much identify with what you said, both about wanting to be understood as well as trying not to cry in front of an SJ because it creates more problems. I also remember my Dad saying when I was young and a kid was either sad or upset or mad, "Get happy!" in a decidedly unhappy tone. What he didn't understand is that his response provokes more emotions that further delay getting happy and that also just wiping away the natural response does not mean that the feelings have disappeared immediately as well. Like you said, usually gentleness, or listening and some show of love like a hug would diffuse the situation. I think the problem is that tears evoke a sense of panic in SJs at not being sure they will know how to handle the situation, and they also tend to take them as a personal, intentional insult, rather than as an involuntary response. One thing I've found SJs also assume is that tears are being used to manipulate them, which with NFs is seldom the case.

The reply from Saslou is interesting because it is also typical of how many of the exchanges between me and my boyfriend went. Because of us communicating so differently, we had a real problem. On the one hand I knew that being myself in front of him would bring about more unresolved conflict and frustration to him, which would end up in apologies from me, as well as lasting resentment and frustration, then ignoring/forgetting from him till there was a highly stacked pile of dynamite. On the other hand, I really wanted him to know me completely be authentic in front of him. I tried choking the stuff down that really bothered me, but that just meant that there were less and less areas topics of conversation that were open. By then end, we were down to things like the weather and what we were going to eat.

He was competent, smart, responsible, showed love through doing things for me etc. and I recognized and appreciated that. However, at the end of it all, we could not overcome the communication barrier.

My mum and dad also suffer from this problem. She's a tough lady and she also cares the world about their relationship. She cries infrequently, but when she does, he can walk away and ignore it and never mention it again. Areas of conflict are never voluntarily addressed and when they are, they are not resolved. And then they are completely forgotten (he literally doesn't remember they happened) while she remembers them vividly. I think it is because he is not sure what to do and also that he involuntarily deflects thinking about it because it evokes vulnerable feelings. However, it's interpreted as a lack of interest or care.

Thanks Saslou for helping develop this discussion and add to seeing where the differences in perspectives lie.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

My mum and dad also suffer from this problem. She's a tough lady and she also cares the world about their relationship. She cries infrequently, but when she does, he can walk away and ignore it and never mention it again. Areas of conflict are never voluntarily addressed and when they are, they are not resolved. And then they are completely forgotten (he literally doesn't remember they happened) while she remembers them vividly. I think it is because he is not sure what to do and also that he involuntarily deflects thinking about it because it evokes vulnerable feelings. However, it's interpreted as a lack of interest or care.

.

isn't this just so common for our parents' genre? yet they find a way to stay married through it all.

 

[briochick]

isn't this just so common for our parents' genre? yet they find a way to stay married through it all.

lol, yup

 

[Saslou]

Traditionally I have problems with SJs, especially ESJs, who seem to have a knee jerk response of hating me.

Saslou: thank you for your input. It's always interesting (if not at times a bit personally upsetting) to get such a different perspective from my own.

OK, my heart strings have been pulled at. I don't hate anybody, i don't have that bone in my body. This i find is the problem with the internet, i am unable to attach feelings, unable to see body language, hear your tone of voice so i can only guess what is being said and how it is being said.
I don't think people hate you, just maybe different communication styles.
When life beats the shit out of you, you have to stay strong and one step ahead of the game. The weak get trampled on, i can't get trampled on. That is why i have the tough exterior (i can't speak for other ESJ's)
Luckily, there are a few that get to see the softer side.

StormySunshine, I very much identify with what you said, both about wanting to be understood as well as trying not to cry in front of an SJ because it creates more problems. I also remember my Dad saying when I was young and a kid was either sad or upset or mad, "Get happy!" in a decidedly unhappy tone. What he didn't understand is that his response provokes more emotions that further delay getting happy and that also just wiping away the natural response does not mean that the feelings have disappeared immediately as well. Like you said, usually gentleness, or listening and some show of love like a hug would diffuse the situation. I think the problem is that tears evoke a sense of panic in SJs at not being sure they will know how to handle the situation, and they also tend to take them as a personal, intentional insult, rather than as an involuntary response. One thing I've found SJs also assume is that tears are being used to manipulate them, which with NFs is seldom the case.

Thanks Saslou for helping develop this discussion and add to seeing where the differences in perspectives lie.

Tears are not good, I never want to see anyone upset. I see that as a problem that must be fixed. It is hard to fix a problem though when we have such a personal investment in it. Manipulation, we're known as door mats for a reason, we take an awful lot. In my case, you become jaded after awhile so the tears don't work (how awful eh?). Where are all the honest people in the world?

 

[briochick]

OK, my heart strings have been pulled at. I don't hate anybody, i don't have that bone in my body. This i find is the problem with the internet, i am unable to attach feelings, unable to see body language, hear your tone of voice so i can only guess what is being said and how it is being said.
I don't think people hate you, just maybe different communication styles.
When life beats the shit out of you, you have to stay strong and one step ahead of the game. The weak get trampled on, i can't get trampled on. That is why i have the tough exterior (i can't speak for other ESJ's)
Luckily, there are a few that get to see the softer side.

Hmm, I didn't mean to pull at your heart strings, but I'm not going to complain if I did. I was actually thinking of some others, and an ESTJ specifically, from this last year. She was particularly cruel to me. But, such is life sometimes. Her old students liked me better so I was content.

Tears are not good, I never want to see anyone upset. I see that as a problem that must be fixed. It is hard to fix a problem though when we have such a personal investment in it. Manipulation, we're known as door mats for a reason, we take an awful lot. In my case, you become jaded after awhile so the tears don't work (how awful eh?). Where are all the honest people in the world?

Really, you feel that way about tears? I didn't know that. I feel quite differently. I see them in most cases as a personal expression of an intense emotion that should be left to the person feeling the feeling and not made a big deal of. My father also used to not let me cry, so now I feel everyone should get to cry. I think you'll find many honest people who are Ns, but the ironic thing is that our honesty can be seen as manipulative plays. On another note the Ns (if they become bitter or sadistic or jaded or dysfunctional) can be *the* most manipulative.

 

[Fidelia]

Saslou, do you prefer people to pretend they don't feel sad, or how in your eyes should they best deal with it? Is there any way to detach enough and realize that it is more an expression of them, than a request or demand toward you to fix things? I do not cry easily, and I sure don't like doing it in front of people, and I particularly do not like to do it in front of people that hate it. However, there are moments of extreme emotion that are very difficult to hide it without hiding most of who I am. If I can't be honest about things like that (as long as it is extreme cases only and not a manipulative habit), then I also have to wall of many other aspects of who I am towards the person. This will almost kill me. In a relationship, you can imagine how bad the outcome is. Either the SJ is with a resentful and distant person, or else they have to learn to not take the emotion expressed or a problem discussed as a personal insult. Neither is pleasant for the SJ and yet, I still see many SJs going for relationship with NFs. Also, where does this deep suspicion of manipulation stem from? All of the SJ types I have talked to about this have expressed that tears are nearly always used as a form of manipulation. Sometimes, this really is not an accurate assumption to make! What should be done?

Are there any circumstances under which you cry? What causes it? Do you feel uncomfortable with it? If so, what is the fear that it brings up? I'd just like to have a better understanding of this. Thanks for being willing to share!

 

[heart]

Although the accounting and analytical..ness sounds Tish, I have to say that the throwing fits, the poutiness, the overreactions, etc. Sounds more like an unhealthy ISFJ than an ISTJ. I know someone who is very similar to this, and she's ISFJ as far as I know. That's my take on it.

Yes, I agree. I know a female ISTJ (a close relative) and she can have pretty thin skin with me but she's more apt to be snappish than hand wringing. More likely to play the "I do so much and no one appreciates me."

Plus there's the of one doesn't know what her limits are until one crosses them and once crossed, there's no reaching her for a time, I just back off and make a mental note about where that emotional mine was. For this reason, I find female T's so much harder to reason with when they have hurt feelings than F's with hurt feelings. At least the F will admit to being upset or hurt and it can be talked about openly.

 

[Saslou]

Hmm, I didn't mean to pull at your heart strings, but I'm not going to complain if I did. I was actually thinking of some others, and an ESTJ specifically, from this last year. She was particularly cruel to me. But, such is life sometimes. Her old students liked me better so I was content.

Really, you feel that way about tears? I didn't know that. I feel quite differently. I see them in most cases as a personal expression of an intense emotion that should be left to the person feeling the feeling and not made a big deal of. My father also used to not let me cry, so now I feel everyone should get to cry. I think you'll find many honest people who are Ns, but the ironic thing is that our honesty can be seen as manipulative plays. On another note the Ns (if they become bitter or sadistic or jaded or dysfunctional) can be *the* most manipulative.

People are cruel sometimes. I think it is just easier to write it off then allow it to get to you. Noone should have that kind of power over you.
Do you ever feel or think you are out of place, like you don't belong in this time frame? I know the saying goes 'what doesn't kill you, makes you strong', but don't you just wish you could live a harmonious life where people were genuine and honest?
(i apologise, i am derailing as i am skimming the surface only)

 

[Saslou]

Saslou, do you prefer people to pretend they don't feel sad, or how in your eyes should they best deal with it? Is there any way to detach enough and realize that it is more an expression of them, than a request or demand toward you to fix things? I do not cry easily, and I sure don't like doing it in front of people, and I particularly do not like to do it in front of people that hate it. However, there are moments of extreme emotion that are very difficult to hide it without hiding most of who I am. If I can't be honest about things like that (as long as it is extreme cases only and not a manipulative habit), then I also have to wall of many other aspects of who I am towards the person. This will almost kill me. In a relationship, you can imagine how bad the outcome is. Either the SJ is with a resentful and distant person, or else they have to learn to not take the emotion expressed or a problem discussed as a personal insult. Neither is pleasant for the SJ and yet, I still see many SJs going for relationship with NFs. Also, where does this deep suspicion of manipulation stem from? All of the SJ types I have talked to about this have expressed that tears are nearly always used as a form of manipulation. Sometimes, this really is not an accurate assumption to make! What should be done?

Are there any circumstances under which you cry? What causes it? Do you feel uncomfortable with it? If so, what is the fear that it brings up? I'd just like to have a better understanding of this. Thanks for being willing to share!

People have the right to 'feel' sad and even cry but if i can't fix the problem then i have failed as i don't want to see anyone sad. Is it possibly a flaw in my personality? Maybe. I think in relationships, feelings take over logic thus nothing really gets sorted esp during heated arguments. I was the same in that i wouldn't cry infront of people. My children now see me cry and i am trying very hard not to see it as a weakness. As you said, its just a reaction to a strong emotion. I can use logic to rationalise it.
Speaking in PM's and on here, you know where my problems stem from. To an extent, its like my views are not my own, almost brainwashing yet i am unsure which views are mine and which belong to that person.

What should be done? I honestly don't know. We are sensitive souls (just watch a butterfly someday interact with its environment). I don't know many people who haven't manipulated me for their advantage yet i still do it. It's a scary thought. I am a fucking strong individual, yet i allow people to play me.

I was thinking the other day (the lightbulb turned on) that i must assess situations where i am trying to be considerate, helpful, understanding and compassionate. What are the chances of me being hurt by being there for the other person in their time of need. I told myself, this is something i really need to do. Then a book came through the post that i ordered. The 16 personality tyes, description for self discovery. I read about me and felt so deflated. I can't do the above even though it makes logic perfect sense as i then go against what i am. I can't change my personality.

This is a snippet-
Theme is providing, ensuring that physical needs are met. Talents lie in supporting others and supplying them with what they need. Genuinely conerned about the welfare of others, making sure they are comfortable and involved. Warm, considerate, thoughful, friendly. Want to please and maintain harmonious relationships. Thrive on helping others and bringing people together.

So as much as this typing helps me find my strengths and weaknesses. I can't at the moment be content with who i am. Unless i find people to be in my life that are willing to support me as much as i support them. Thats not fair either. Arrghhh.

So to answer some of your questions.
Are there any circumstances under which you cry?
I only usually cry in relationships.

What causes it?
When i know i can't cope anymore or fix something. My body has to release the tension.

Do you feel uncomfortable with it?
Being told they were crocodile tears and not being shown the support to my emotional state.

what is the fear that it brings up?
Fear, failure, weakness, not having the control over my feelings.
Book called 'Women who love to much' Robin Norwood.
Me to a T.

I am going for a well earned cigarette now i have disected my soul.

 

[Saslou]

OK .. Question for Briochick and Fidelia.

Your personality principles are similiar to mine.

INFJ - Use their insights to deal with complexity in issues and people. Talents lie in delevoping and guiding people. Trust their inspirations and visions, using them to help others. Thrive on helping others resolve deep personal and ethical dilemmas.

INFP - Talents lie in helping people clarify issues, values and identity. Support anything that allows the unfolding of the person. Loyal advocates and champions, caring deeply about their causes and a few special people.


So how easy is it for you to be manipulated by others? You seem very sensitive yourselves so how are you able to stop people playing you?
Do you view the above as a strength or weakness? Do people (friends and partners) gain from your postive abilities then just leave when they believe what you say?

Elaborate if you choose.

 

[Fidelia]

I think, Saslou, that being sensitive and caring about other people is ultimately a strength. It's a matter of having enough self-confidence and respect though to draw boundaries for others at an appropriate time instead of leaving it all in their hands. It is natural for people to test the limits to see where those boundaries are, much like kids do. They actually like and appreciate knowing that you have some, and will respect you more for defending them. This comes out of a place of believing the best in people and having confidence to care for yourself. You teach people (kindly) how to treat you. They actually will show you a lot more respect if you show them where and how by treating yourself with that same kind of respect. The wonderful thing about this, is that you don't have to do it as a knee jerk reaction, expecting that they are probably out to use you. You are helping them to act in the way that you need them to, so that you can continue on together. I find sometimes that it is invaluable to keep my circle of support close enough that they have some barometer of the dynamics between me and other people. That way, I also can see what the perceptions and reactions of people who really have my best interests in mind are.

My cousin, in particular, spent years becoming increasingly isolated from her family and friends because of her negative and insecure husband. Finally in her later 30s, she decided to stay with him, but have her own life as well - going to family gatherings, having friends - normal things. That ended up giving her the confidence to decide to lose a significant amount of weight. She realized that she needed to carve out time for her to walk, so that she was around for her family later and emotionally had something to give them. There was huge resistance at first, but she stuck to her guns, which she had never done before. Her husband was discouraging and did not want her to do it. However, over the course of a couple of years, she had lost 90 pounds, felt more confident and also noticed a huge difference in the way her whole family treated her. They expected that she would need time for herself every day. They were much more appreciative of the things she did for them than they had been before. Her husband could needle her with comments about her weight as justification for his own behaviours, and even quit smoking himself. He also started getting worried that other men might be attracted to her! He ended up not wanting to be left behind, so he made more efforts to be nice to her friends and family and sometimes come along with her when she went to visit without being rude to them. The kids have, for the first time in years, been freer to spend time with grandparents. I have become close friends with my cousin and our friendship has been mutually beneficially for us.

The point I'm making, is that paradoxically, the way you treat yourself has a big influence on how others think of you and act towards you. Not only that, but it brings about bigger growth and happiness in the people around you. As a result of what happened, her marriage was improved by re-drawing some boundary lines, she gained more friendships, she lost weight, she was happier, she had a circle of support, her kids learned more about how to be strong and also had the benefit of new people in their life and her husband quit smoking and also widened his circle of support. Of course this did not happen overnight and it is not an easy process to establish healthier patterns and boundaries than those in place for the previous 15 years. It is something she is still working on, but at least now has the confidence and other's perspectives encourage her to continue.

One of my problems is that I really like to understand what's going on and why someone acts the way they do. Therefore, it takes me awhile interacting with them to figure out the patterns, and then to be sure of my perceptions. Unfortunately, I then spend a lot of time exhausting every possible way I can see to fix the situation. Only after I have tried everything (and even then reluctantly) I walk away. However, I do understand when people are overstepping their boundaries. Usually I have chosen to allow it for a limited period of time (I'm not talking about hugely bad behaviours though) to get it figured out.

Over the years, I have had to decide where to draw the boundaries of what I will tolerate or not. This does not have to be in an angry way, but just very matter-of-factly. It is absenting yourself when it is appropriate or recognizing a behaviour for what it is, in a very unemotional, calm manner. There need to be some behaviours that are outside of a big black line. People cannot go there without there being very serious consequences. However, you do not just start dealing with it when the big worst behaviour manifests itself. Usually there are littler ones leading up to it. That is when it is time to make it clear that you will not accept it (verbal/emotional abuse, sulking, lying etc) and be prepared to back your words up with action if it is required. Your behaviour needs to change so that it does not accommodate others' bad behaviour.

 

[Fidelia]

One other thought - you have to accept that the only reaction you are responsible for is your own. You cannot control how other people feel or what they say or do; you can only control how you respond to it. This in a way lifts a huge burden. When people cry then, you can consider what the other person's need is and what the appropriate response is to their need, rather than being distracted by how it makes you feel and how to fix the situation. The feelings you are describing are typical of many of the SJs I've interacted with and love dearly.

 

[Saslou]

Thank you ever so much for responding.

I think i need to lay some boundaries and change my thinking process.
First thoughts are that i am going to go against the grain, but i need to be responsible to myself.

Your a diamond.
(i won't derail the thread anymore)

 

[Fidelia]

Back atcha, baby! It'll be hard to do the boundary things at first, but it's very worthwhile!