[ENTP] Non-machiavelian ENTP?

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I just recalled an old INTP appreciation thread and Sub's comment about associating INTP with intelligence. It's helpful to find primary associations between subjects, but what more is there? He rightfully asked what other qualities there are with INTP in addition to intelligence. I think the thread eventually evolved to finding other qualities, too.

I've been partly proud, mostly sad for having ENTP seen as basically immoral but successful figures. Is there talk about someone obviously fake, a cheater, a con-artist? Hey there's the ENTP.

The hegemony on the subject is too great to endure.

So how does ENTP show the qualities of ENTP without cheating everyone?

Does the idea of a "giver" apply to ENTP as it does to ENFP, in our popular opinion?

Personally, I think I go a struggle between some "dark side" and a good one. I love the good feeling of being honest, lawful, direct and open. Then again, not everything I do is good for everyone to know. Some things I do in secret, but I think I'm extremely tuned in to the mores of the society, and find some clever ways to preserve them. I'm a moral guardian, moral libertarian, having some amalgam of morals from many sources. I think I'm good for the society.

I think my worst part is being a moral liberal by my word and a moral conservative by my actions. I keep good standards internally, but talk about carefree values to most others - perhaps to the detriment of everyone else. I can't be sure what kind of an effect I have. I do not know.

So, I'm an ENTP and low-mach. Should I consider myself as a normal ENTP or a speciality, the rare ENTP who doesn't betray and manipulate people with his devious plans?

What about other ENTPs who don't subscribe to the standard of a con-artist? Do we have anything within the MBTI to describe them?

 

[Valiant]

The descriptions that says bad stuff about certain types are biased. I'm a fairly kind ENTJ. Really. Many bosses are ENTJ, and thus many people judge the whole type by the actions of a few. I once had an ENTJ boss, and that was one evil son of a bitch. If I could have, I would have unscrewed his head and shit down his throat

 

[Cypocalypse]

Being immoral and successful is more like an ENTJ trait.

I see ENTP's as more like existentialists, as opposed to INTP being the rationalists.

 

[Badlands]

I think all of us will have some issues with how our types are presented. Personally, I'm a little tired of people automatically assuming any "nerd" who comes up with all these freaky ideas is an INTP. A lot of INTPs are like that, but some skip the process of actually evaluating the person's attitudes and just say "nerd = INTP". I just think of how INTPs are positively portrayed; that we have changed the world with our groundbreaking ideas. I think while ENTPs can be portrayed as con artists, I think ENTPs are colorful, multi-interested people who have also changed the world with their groundbreaking ideas.

 

[LucrativeSid]

I never deceive or harm others for personal gain. If I have to lie, cheat, beg, or steal to get something, then I don't deserve it and I don't want it. I want to be proud of everything I do. I want to be able to tell people about it and show them how I did it and not have to worry about trying to cover anything up. (I do make mistakes but I have no problem admitting to them.) I want to set a good example. I'm probably not the most giving person in the world but I certainly do try to remain fair at all times. I'm not greedy or selfish, although I have no problem watching out for my own best interest. Most of what I plan to do with my life revolves around helping and inspiring other people. I am assertive because I believe it's a crime to let something unjust to happen to me. Not only does it slow me down, but it let's other people think they can get away with it. I have no enemies. When people push me, I push them back just as hard as I have to in order to make them understand that it's not happening again. If I show someone a boundary and they maliciously refuse to respect it, then, and only then, will I aim to crush them. I fight for what it is right, not for personal reasons, so once it's clear that I'm victorious, I will help them back up and probably become their friend or at least find mutual respect.

 

[nemo]

I honestly *never* heard ENTP = Machiavelian con-artist until I came to these forums. Can anyone provide a source for this? (Socionics doesn't count.)

Personally, I find con-artists abhorrent.

Supposedly there's some correlation between ENTP and Enneagram type 3s, so maybe that's where all this con-artist nonsense is coming from.

There are many contradictory statements about ENTPs when you compare some of the talk on these forums to the literature. For instance, one member (I won't name names) theorized that ENPs get their self-esteem from impressing other people, but Lenore Thompson writes of ENTPs:

... the type's disinterest in hierarchy and displays of status can result in a disarmingly direct and unpretentious style of relating. A shipping clerk who had been talking to a famous ENTP scientist in the hall of a major research center was amazed to find out who his conversational partner had been. "He didn't talk like he was important; he seemed like the kind of guy you'd go bowling with."

http://www.entp.org/discuss2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

 

[edel weiss]

I'm not a Machiavellian con-artist. I don't deceive people, and try my best to be as truthful and straightforward as possible. I don't cheat people either. I believe that doing so just makes your life unnecessarily complicated and comes back to bite you sooner or later.

Sure, I've managed to convince people of the most ludicrous things, I'm a good liar when necessary, and I'm also been very successfull at pulling off a variety of pranks. All done just for a few laughs. (Admittedly, some people don't find that very funny)

But I don't lie or cheat in general. I usually say exactly what I'm thinking. On the whole, I hold myself up to very high standards. I generally don't judge other people very harshly.

Turned up as a high Mach on one of those online tests, though. While I can manipulate situations and people just for fun, I don't recall ever doing it to hurt somebody or to gain something for myself.

In fact, I want to be the lind of lawyer who fights for justice and for the rights of the downtrodden, without too many money considerations.

So... con-artist? Nah. Perhaps a la Robin Hood, at the most.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I honestly *never* heard ENTP = Machiavelian con-artist until I came to these forums. Can anyone provide a source for this? (Socionics doesn't count.)

Uberfuhrer

 

[matmos]

I'm not a Machiavellian con-artist

Thank heavens for that! If you were, though, would you say?

An ENTP drinking pal of many years often confuses me with his sometimes highly suspect ethics. On the one hand he's straight down the line, would do anything to help out friends and is generally a good egg. On a few occassions he's told me about some dreadful things he's *had to do* at work - real toe curling stuff - as a conversation filler. He shrugs this off as "just business", reasoning if he didn't do it *someone else would*. He's also slightly Machiavellian but isn't very good at it (dunno if that counts).

 

[nemo]

Thank heavens for that! If you were, though, would you say?

An ENTP drinking pal of many years often confuses me with his sometimes highly suspect ethics. On the one hand he's straight down the line, would do anything to help out friends and is generally a good egg. On a few occassions he's told me about some dreadful things he's *had to do* at work - real toe curling stuff - as a conversation filler. He shrugs this off as "just business", reasoning if he didn't do it *someone else would*. He's also slightly Machiavellian but isn't very good at it (dunno if that counts).

Do you think the fact that he's "slightly" Machiavellian has anything to do with him being an ENTP?

Honestly, I'm kind of sick of the implication that Machiavellian => ENTP or ENTP => Machiavellian.

(You're not making those implications, I'm just using this thread as an excuse to rant. )

The most "Machiavellian" people I've ever met were not ENTPs.

I've also yet to find any reference to that in *any* of the official literature on MBTI types. The closest I can find is vague correlations between ENTPs (as well as many other types, tyvm) and other personality systems where that kind of thing is mentioned.

 

[Nocapszy]

I honestly *never* heard ENTP = Machiavelian con-artist until I came to these forums. Can anyone provide a source for this? (Socionics doesn't count.)

Well, most of the people who've got sites on typology, also have books out. If they have negative things about any of the types, then everyone who's taken the test and is of that type won't buy the books. It's marketing.

Personally, I find con-artists abhorrent.

Supposedly there's some correlation between ENTP and Enneagram type 3s, so maybe that's where all this con-artist nonsense is coming from.

There are many contradictory statements about ENTPs when you compare some of the talk on these forums to the literature. For instance, one member (I won't name names) theorized that ENPs get their self-esteem from impressing other people, but Lenore Thompson writes of ENTPs:

In the movie 21, the guy who organizes the whole card counting team is a con artist. He's an ENTP. Plenty of the people in oceans eleven are ENTPs.

Think of it this way nemo. ENTP is the only one clever enough to pull con's off. Everyone else either has too much of a conscience, or isn't that smart. Not that we always do it.

I'm not a con-artist. You're obviously not one. How come we don't just drop the stupid stereotypes?

 

[matmos]

Do you think the fact that he's "slightly" Machiavellian has anything to do with him being an ENTP?

Probably not!

And as rants go that was very civilized.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

The main character from "Thank You For Smoking" is an ENTP. That's about as Machiavellian as they come. At the same time Doc Emmett Brown ("Back to the Future") and Wesley/Dread Pirate Roberts ("The Princess Bride") are also ENTP. ENTP's come in a variety of flavors.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

I'm an ENTP and I'm not a con artist.

I'm a good liar, and I do make up tall stories sometimes, mainly just to see if I can convince people. Just for fun. And I do mess with people who I don't care about, like telemarketers and such, but they don't even count as humans.

Apart from the fact that I like to lie and I'm very good at it, I don't think these stereotypes are true (although that's been established, but to answer your question). The only time I really "manipulate" people, is when I've screwed up and I convince them to like me again.

It sounds so much cooler when I write it. I'm a loser in real life. *sigh* But I'm not someone who decieves and cheats for my own personal game. That's more of an ENTJ thing. And I don't glue people's furniture the the ceiling either. Of course not *shifty eyes*.


Nah, it's all BS. They're all just jealous because they can't be ENTPs.

 

[white]

SweenyTodd, another ENTP?

Go make an introduction thread!

 

[mippus]

I'll have a try. Don't shoot me for it.
What I admire in ENTP's is their sense of humour, their social adaptability and the ease with which they fool around with people, often making them believe the hilarious. They often like to play. And yes, one might wonder what could happen if they would abuse these skills, but that does not make them Macchiavellan. I also like their directness which is often a form of openness. Nicolo wouldn't praise that, I guess...

 

[white]

Ok, to answer this properly, Machiavellianism to me requires an intent/purpose to shape according to a desired order. ENTPs are good at getting people to buy in to ideas, by their enthusiasm. It is not a desire for an order to set into place. It is a longing to explore. Machiavellianism is gaming for control.

For a healthy ENTP, the intent to me is different. The ENTP genuinely believes in his/her ideas, and is good at getting the support to play with the ideas, simply. More often than not, the ENTP is burnt by his own ideas. A machiavellist would have a better instinct of self-protection.

Any unhealthy type can be manipulative. I'd think the card of manipulation lies with Fe and Te, and the former is the tertiary of the ENTP, while Te does not exist in the first 4.

So, no. I don't think ENTPs are machiavellian. They are charmers, usually alive, sweet-talkers, enthusiastic and brimming with ideas. Because of that it could appear manipulative to folks who do not understand why they are going along with a dumb idea.

But the difference is the intent in determining Machiavellianism. A healthy ENTP does not seek to hurt nor to establish his order. Just because you enjoy playing a good hand, doesn't mean you are a cardshark, simply.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I never deceive or harm others for personal gain. If I have to lie, cheat, beg, or steal to get something, then I don't deserve it and I don't want it. I want to be proud of everything I do. I want to be able to tell people about it and show them how I did it and not have to worry about trying to cover anything up. (I do make mistakes but I have no problem admitting to them.) I want to set a good example. I'm probably not the most giving person in the world but I certainly do try to remain fair at all times. I'm not greedy or selfish, although I have no problem watching out for my own best interest. Most of what I plan to do with my life revolves around helping and inspiring other people. I am assertive because I believe it's a crime to let something unjust to happen to me. Not only does it slow me down, but it let's other people think they can get away with it. I have no enemies. When people push me, I push them back just as hard as I have to in order to make them understand that it's not happening again. If I show someone a boundary and they maliciously refuse to respect it, then, and only then, will I aim to crush them. I fight for what it is right, not for personal reasons, so once it's clear that I'm victorious, I will help them back up and probably become their friend or at least find mutual respect.

Oh my god, you just wrote what could have been my self-written manifesto. Did it really read LucrativeSid and not my name on the side?

 

[Mort Belfry]

Meesterrrrrr Todd.


"No one's gonna 'arm you, not while I'm around."

 

[digesthisickness]

for me, while i'll admit that i definitely have it in me to be very machiavelian, it's not my first inclination. i can do a lot of things, but it doesn't mean any of those things would be my first choice. and, when it comes to that, i have to be driven in some way to go there.

many people assume that just because you have an ability, and they'd use it as a first choice if they had it (or if they do have the ability and do choose to use it first), that you will too. while others tend to be paranoid and go with their fear, so they worry that you'll do your worst just because you can.