[ISFJ] ISFJ friend being stalked, advice?

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Copied from my blog entry. I think I should ask help for this thing.

Update: edited for general audience.
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Eh, some (male) neighbor is harassing and stalking my ISFJ female friend..

No, seriously, she got an annoying problem. The man follows her to her house, he forcibly entered one time, he distracts her life in several ways.. the man imagines they are having an affair, and accuses her of infidelity. He follows and keeps track on her life patterns, visitors and relationships. He's threatened to make her male guests leave, so that he could have her for himself. Clearly a completely sick mind.

She's a nice person, having hard time to exert enough rudeness to drive him away. I had some friends invited to a dinner at my place, her included, and I listened to her complaints about his behavior. The man insists they are having an affair (a secret one, he says!), although she just actively avoids the man.

I was surprised when she brought this up on a dinner with two friends of mine. So I just gave a short speech along the lines of "straighten up woman, have some self respect and stop that stalker right now!" Ok, she told what she's been trying to do.. and she was left to wonder why such things often happen to her. She's a loser magnet. She's incapable of communicating her disinterest in a strong enough manner. She tries.. she even uses direct and strong words, but she fails. Over and over again. With different losers, stalkers and other nutjobs. I'm just wondering how someone may feel so much empathy toward their antagonists that they don't dare to win them. Then again, her vivid explanations of the events make it seem like she's having a hard time with no reasons at all.

Of course, that's partly true. She doesn't deserve to be stalked.

Then again, people usually develop skills to handle all kinds of different problem behavior they don't deserve. For people usually, that's just a starting point. For her, it's the end. She's noticing someone to stalk her, and she expects the problem to go away when she acknowledges it.

I'm feeling empathy for her.. she's and old friend, a dear friend of mine.

When she had returned home after our visit, she told me to have cried when she got home. Well, ok.. I understand I was matter-of-fact, and I was offering advice. She needs the advice, too. She could spare to survive living in that neighborhood with less drama and invasion of privacy bordering on the illegal. But.. it was just too hard on her to realize her weakness and incapability on this issue. I should have realized.. I've also felt helpless on some serious issues some times.

It's just that.. I wouldn't have believed her to be helpless, see.. I was there to advice her! I thought that the stalker would be quickly gotten rid of with my helpful advice

Must be hard for her.
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So, she's a very nice person, smiles a lot, she's sweet.. I've got the idea that people often mistake her for being interested of them, when she's just being herself.

I wouldn't stop being nice just to drive unwanted people away. But.. this kind of thing continues for her over and over again. This was the thing with her last boyfriend.

Hm, I have one answer. She hasn't learned a proper idea of independence until recently. She's somewhat emotionally dependent on people she cares about. We're friends because I don't abuse that, instead I assure her that I care about her, and she should be more certain of herself, because she deserves it. She's said I've been the first decent man she's known in her life. I practically carried her on my shoulders emotionally when she had more difficult time. Now, I've taught her some independence, and she's liking it.. She's more emotionally secure now.

She has also taught me to accept and resolve my feelings after my major burnout and resulting depression, and I'm in enormous gratitude towards her for being with me in the difficult time.

I have an idea. What if she emotionally attaches to abusing people? This is what happened in her childhood home.

Any advice?

 

[Rhadamanthus]

Any advice?

The man follows her to her house, he forcibly entered one time

...Did she call the police? If he's stalking her, and he's forcibly entered her house, then she should call the police and file a restraining order against him or something if it continues. If she won't contact the police about it, then you should.

I don't have any advice for preventing stalkers, though.

 

[Athenian200]

Well, did you ask why she's not discussing this with the police?

Also, what kind of things has she said to him? Anything along the lines of "I don't like you, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stay away from me?" Or can she not do that?

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

She got a response from the police, that it's hard to accumulate enough evidence to warrant a restraining order in these kinds of cases. Still, some kind of evidence would be needed.

I also think she accepted it as a matter-of-fact situation.. it is indeed hard to get the evidence, and she's considering moving away now. Not seriously tho, I know.

 

[Athenian200]

I also think she accepted it as a matter-of-fact situation.. it is indeed hard to get the evidence, and she's considering moving away now. Not seriously tho, I know.

I'd probably move away in that case myself. If the police won't do anything, then my only options are really to take it and risk something happening, or leave. I'd influence her to move away, and to do it as sneakily as possible so he can't trace where she goes. Possibly even change her name.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I also think the kinds of things she's said to him show pretty good determination sometimes. So it's not just that she lacks the drive and the ability to express herself. She has the words okay, but there's something revealing about her psychological strength which invites stalkers. I think it would be best to offer some point of advice in this respect.

Or then, maybe it's not her, perhaps it's just some coincidental factors accumulating and making her susceptible to this. I'm not sure.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I'd probably move away in that case myself. If the police won't do anything, then my only options are really to take it and risk something happening, or leave. I'd influence her to move away, and to do it as sneakily as possible so he can't trace where she goes. Possibly even change her name.

Hm, that isn't too extreme, so it's possible. You are right. Her father badly disrupted her life in her previous apartment, and she arranged for her phone number and address to be kept secret. The secret leaked out somehow, but she was harassed less in the new apartment.

So there's the factor that she might not be able to keep her new address secret either. It's not about her abilities to do it, but it's about the many ways in how you can get information you're not entitled to. Some stalkers just find their way. They just ask someone who knows. If they don't find such person immediately, they search. I guess the official registers leak information, too.

 

[alcea rosea]

I was tired of her bitching about the problems when I was trying to enjoy our evening. So I just gave a short speech along the lines of "straighten up woman, have some self respect and stop that stalker right now!" Ok, she told what she's been trying to do.. and she was left to wonder why such things often happen to her. She's a loser magnet. She's incapable of communicating her disinterest in a strong enough manner. She tries.. she even uses direct and strong words, but she fails. Over and over again. With different losers, stalkers and other nutjobs. I'm just wondering how someone may be so spineless. Then again, her vivid explanations of the events make it seem like she's having a hard time with no reasons at all.

Of course, that's partly true. She doesn't deserve to be stalked.

Few things caught my eye in your writing and made me a bit annoyed (bolded). You really cannot blame somebody for being sweet and it's certainly not fair to say she is spineless! ISFJ's are usually sweet and nice persons and it's really hard for them to be blunt with people. It's like acting against their own nature. You can figure out something that is extremely difficult for you and try to do it. It's not easy.

You just giving her a speech don’t really help things. I think she needs more concrete help. Go with her to police station; figure out with her how to get evidence against the stalker. Take some of your friends with you and go to talk to the stalker on behalf of her. Do something, don't just nag at her! Friends should be there to help each other.

Nobody deserves to be stalked! One friend of mine is ESFP and she was stalked too. And she told the stalker several times very forcefully that she did not want anything to do with him. And he didn't listen. So, you really cannot blame somebody’s personality type for the fact that they are stalked. It's like blaming the rape victim of being guilty of the rape. Anybody can be stalked and the stalkers are not people who act normally so they probably will not listen to anything no matter how it is said, ISFJ or not ISFJ.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Yeah, I know I just rushed to move the discussion to some other topics and I'm not proud, it was just my first reaction to problems I'd be ashamed to have. I was ashamed of me when I couldn't get rid of a female stalker myself at one time.

But.. I'm conflicted. She's got such a friendly, happy and active approach to life.. .. I wouldn't want her to stop all that just to turn stalkers away. I'm not really fully appreciating her if I criticize her for what's a natural outcome of her personality, even tho it's something that could be objectively criticized. She's not someone who accepts hard objective criticism without tears.. something that I work around almost always and try to make my message easier on her.

Well I'm glad I didn't say half the things I thought, just told her to deal with it.

Advice of gathering the evidence with her is good! Only practical way I know would be to carry a recorder (and keep it on) all time when going home and coming out. I'll have to ask if it's legal to record their conversations and if it's ok to use the recordings as evidence. Here are some laws that restrict people to make recordings of discussions without prior consent from everyone involved, but it only applies to some situations. I should find out which situations it applies in.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Correction

I'm seeing that the term "forcible entry" refers to breaking the door

This didn't happen. The man used force to move my friend away from the door and to enter her apartment, but it didn't leave any marks on the door as nothing was broken. Hope this clears up why I said there's no evidence. Moreover, the local police department tells that the situation isn't probably "serious".

 

[Totenkindly]

I did have some of the same reaction that Alcearos did, with the language that was used to describe your friend. It came across as sort of condescending and not really understanding where she's at, who she is, or what strategies SHE can employ. (I have no doubt YOU could handle this stalker, because your personality is different, but she's highly vulnerable because of her past and her personality.)

I didn't think the man broke the door, I was perceiving he just forced his way in. Really, what's a woman to do at that point except for macing him or screaming or making a HUGE deal... which would embarrass her, possibly provoke him, and draw lots of attention she doesn't want? For an ISFJ, such things would just highly embarrassing.

You have to remember, if you look at the three anxiety-reducing strategy, she's a "move towards" person. She deals with anxiety and conflict by moving TOWARDS the person, trying to console, ingratiate, and get on their good side. Someone who Moved Against or Moved Away would do better with stalkers... but her natural skill and instinct is to negotiate with people so that everyone is happy and they are no longer displeased with her. Where she is weak is that she's not willing to live with anxiety that she sometimes must suffer is she is to protect herself.

It might gall you that she is not acting as independently as you would like, but I think she's going to need more support than you'd expect. And to be taken care of, to some degree. Guys like you to get involved and get rid of this guy. Even if she should be developing more independence, she can't do enough of it to save her from this creep.

I would probably try to keep convincing her that this guy is NOT part of her social circle, she has no commitments or obligations to him, he is crossing her boundaries, and thus she needs to see him as an interloper and someone she can truly "lock out" rather than trying to engage, placate, salve, or maintain a relationship with. Even that it's better for her to feel harsh, cruel, evil, or mean than to keep allowing him to violate her boundaries. She might need to support to just let her know she's not any of those things for cutting him out.

I don't know, obviously you know her so much better so perhaps my advice is off a great deal. But I would not hesitate to step in, in this situation, and help her "take care of this problem." Some people just need that level of support, even if we would not.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I did have some of the same reaction that Alcearos did, with the language that was used to describe your friend. It came across as sort of condescending and not really understanding where she's at, who she is, or what strategies SHE can employ.

It was more of a blog writing style, I was lazy to edit it for general topic areas. Done editing now, see OP . Thank you for pointing it out. It was bad from me to express such harsh views in here.

I didn't think the man broke the door, I was perceiving he just forced his way in. Really, what's a woman to do at that point except for macing him or screaming or making a HUGE deal... which would embarrass her, possibly provoke him, and draw lots of attention she doesn't want? For an ISFJ, such things would just highly embarrassing.

Yeah it's true, little can be done, but she managed to do it. I think she handled it superbly.

You have to remember, if you look at the three anxiety-reducing strategy, she's a "move towards" person. She deals with anxiety and conflict by moving TOWARDS the person, trying to console, ingratiate, and get on their good side. Someone who Moved Against or Moved Away would do better with stalkers... but her natural skill and instinct is to negotiate with people so that everyone is happy and they are no longer displeased with her. Where she is weak is that she's not willing to live with anxiety that she sometimes must suffer is she is to protect herself.

This is all new to me, tho I suspected something of the kind. Yes, this kind of mutual solution seeking it is.

It might gall you that she is not acting as independently as you would like, but I think she's going to need more support than you'd expect. And to be taken care of, to some degree. Guys like you to get involved and get rid of this guy. Even if she should be developing more independence, she can't do enough of it to save her from this creep.

Yeah I didn't want to turn this whole thing to complaining about HER. The narrative was from my blog, where I first had a quick gut reaction to this and I was later sorry, because I heard her having cried because of my perceived rudeness. Only then did I begin to really empathize with her situation, and I apologized her for dismissing her situation as something trivially solvable. Now I do want to help her without making her feel guilt.

If he harasses her when I'm visiting her, I'll do my best to get the message clear for him. I'll discuss with her to plan what would work best. Other than that, I'll support her emotionally in this issue, and arrange a pocket recorder for her to help her get the evidence.

I would probably try to keep convincing her that this guy is NOT part of her social circle, she has no commitments or obligations to him, he is crossing her boundaries, and thus she needs to see him as an interloper and someone she can truly "lock out" rather than trying to engage, placate, salve, or maintain a relationship with. Even that it's better for her to feel harsh, cruel, evil, or mean than to keep allowing him to violate her boundaries. She might need to support to just let her know she's not any of those things for cutting him out.

This is a helpful perspective. I'll discuss this with her.

I don't know, obviously you know her so much better so perhaps my advice is off a great deal. But I would not hesitate to step in, in this situation, and help her "take care of this problem." Some people just need that level of support, even if we would not.

It ain't off, it hits the spot

Thank you

 

[FDG]

Become her boyfriend, that's the solution. You can kick the ass of the people that stalk her then, and so get a good workout too, isn't that sweet.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

There will be no roleplaying to knight-saving-the-princess -scenarios in here No tough guy attitude either. I'm interested of other women and she's accepted it; my relationship to her is that of a friend and it'll stay that way.

 

[Athenian200]

I really don't care for the accusations Alcearos and Jennifer have leveled at Santtu. His reaction may have been a bit condescending, but I think the way you two reacted to it shows that you weren't making much of an effort to understand where he was coming from either.

It was clear to me that he was frustrated because he cared what happened to her and wanted her to be out of the situation, not just because he thought she was "stupid" or something for not being able to get out. I agree that he didn't express it in the best way possible, probably because his mind was meandering, thinking of all the options that seemed simple enough but wouldn't work, and thus getting frustrated.

The general tone of the post was that he thought it was a bad situation for her, and he wanted to know what should be done, because he wasn't sure how to work within her situation, essentially admitting that he was having trouble understanding just how this was for her, and thus how/whether he should help her. Instead of responding to that, you zeroed in on one interpretation of one aspect of what he wrote and made an accusation against him out of it.

One more little thing: I think he mentioned the definition of "forced entry" to point out frustration with the narrowness of what the police would accept, and not to imply that she was overreacting to him shoving his way inside as some of you seem to have interpreted that remark.

With that said, I understand how it could be interpreted that way (even though I didn't interpret it that way), but I don't think it merited the severity of your reactions/condemnations to it. I think it should have been pointed out to him, certainly, but not emphasized to the degree it was. I'm also willing to admit that with this post, I may be guilty of doing to you (to some extent) the same thing I think you did to Santtu. I hope not, but I'm aware that I might be.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Thanks Athenian, I indeed care for her, but I accept Alcearos' and Jennifer's view as well. Everyone's entitled to their own thoughts, even if rude - but I displayed lack of understanding by not editing them into a more acceptable form. I think we've established that condescending attitude and blaming is not my only feeling in here.

The background for my frustration with her is simple: I was annoyed that when I came back from the kitchen in my dinner party, she had brought down the mood and wouldn't stop talking about her problems. I saw that my friends weren't enjoying the monologue.

We always knew what kind of forced entry it was and what's required as evidence, but I was disappointed of conveying an inexact message - a more dramatic one - to my audience. I will stay clear from drama if at all possible.

 

[alcea rosea]

The best way of getting evidence for police would be taking a video of this stalker's behavior. She might need help in getting some video shootage of the situation and I think a friend could help her in that.

 

[MC2456]

Ask her to call the police! . Because he's too much!

 

[Electric]

I can relate well to this thread,

I have a good ISFJ friend and she always get into problems that she can never solve. Especially in her job where her partners slack off on the task, she does all the work by herself...She thinks that it's worth it since it will help her keep her job as she is a role model worker. IMO This is really stupid as it causes more suffering. This had been going on for five years and her health was declining because of it. Since her supervisor currently was relocated, she had a better one that made everyone work. I have always been supportive of her, but sometimes it's meaningless when she doesn't listens to your advice and wants your support only.

ISFJ IMO aren't good in external affairs. The thing that exacerbates the situation even more is that they don't look hard enough to solve their affairs. People can easily take advantage of their will to work hard. They are overoptimistic with strangers.

 

[LostInNerSpace]

Any advice?

Pepper spray? That's risky though. She would only be justified in using it if she felt she was in real physical danger otherwise he could press charges against her. And it may or may not be illegal in your state anyway.

Better idea would be to get her to move.