[MBTI General] INFJ female seeks help understanding ESTJ female and former friend

[mwv6r]

Hello,

So I'm an INFJ female who loves personality type, and I'm always trying to use MBTI to help me understand any conflicts I encounter with other types. So, at the risk of sounding like an overly sensitive, self-confessing NF, here's my situation that I would love help sorting out.

I'm engaged to a really awesome guy who's an ESTP (my opposite). About a year and a half ago (before getting engaged) we had some problems because we started hanging out with a new coworker of his, an ESTJ female. His workplace is very social and we get to know a lot of our good friends, male and female, through the mixers and things that his company holds. She was fairly new to our social circle, and honestly she kind of made me anxious because I sometimes felt she was hitting on my boyfriend. But whenever it got bad enough that I thought about putting my foot down and cutting ties with her, she would be extremely nice to me and then I would say to myself, "Well maybe she's just really outgoing. I shouldn't jump to conclusions." So for a few months it went on like this, with me vaguely suspicious of her, but not enough to break ties, and we'd all hang out at bars and such with groups of other people. I never talked to my boyfriend about my anxieties over her because I didn't want to seem insecure or overbearing, and in retrospect I see that I should have just been upfront with him the whole time.

So a couple months after we start hanging out with her, my boyfriend got a big promotion at work... to be her boss. Suddenly what had been only an irritating suspicion for so long became very obvious -- she was suddenly all over him, constant non-work-related texts and phone calls, constantly talking to him about her prospects for moving up at work, hanging all over him and making me feel like a third wheel whenever she was at the same social event as us, etc. I was furious, and I kicked myself for not acting on my spidey sensors earlier. (As an introverted intuitive and NF, now I'm learning to trust my intuitions and insights about people more.) I finally told my boyfriend what I was observing and that I was angry at her but also very angry at him for even letting it go on, especially since in retrospect I was now quite sure that the flirting had been going on for quite a while, though less explicitly before she was his subordinate. He quickly cut non-professional ties with her and seemed genuinely remorseful. In the end I think this was good for our relationship because as an outgoing, life-of-the-party ESTP he had seemed to think that flirtations were okay as long as he did not initiate them and did not act on them, but now he understands that I take those behaviors very personally, and since then we only hang out with coworkers who are respectful of our relationship. Things have been great between us since then.

Here's the thing though, I still feel very angry whenever I see her at company social events. Luckily that is not very often, but it's often enough to get under my skin. She heard through the grapevine (we have some mutual friends) that I didn't like her and didn't want anything to do with her (I never went bashing her to any of those mutual friends, but if I was out with them and they suggested giving her a call to come out, I would ask them not to). Nonetheless, for a long time she would still come up to me at those mixers acting all friendly and complimentary towards me. I would literally pretend not to see her and walk away, because I got the feeling she was looking for a way back into our social circle and thought that kissing my ass would get her there. Finally she stopped, but now I hear that she is telling people she has no idea why I'm being so mean.

Here's where I would like some help. Is it really, really possible that she doesn't know why I don't like her? I have a lot of trouble imagining someone that emotionally dense, but maybe that is a trait of certain poorly-developed ESTJs? What do you guys think? Any advice on how to deal with her or with people like her in the future? What especially bothers me is that she seemed to think I was a doormat who could be manipulated with compliments.

One more question about ESTJ females, and lest you think I'm hating on that type, I assure you there are many ESTJ females who I know and love, including my fiance's sister and one of my favorite aunts. But I have noticed a pattern in a few of the ESTJ females at my fiance's job. Just like this girl who pissed me off, they seem willing to use sex appeal to try to advance in the company. Not all of the ESTJ women at his job are like this, of course, many are respectful and perfectly nice. But the ones who are seem to have no qualms about throwing themselves at a male superior, even if both parties are married, and I've heard about instances of adultery with two of them. All three who I've seen doing this are quite attractive, very outgoing, and demand a lot of attention. Has anyone else noticed a tendency in attractive ESTJ females to act in this manner at work? It surprises me because what I've read about ESTJs is that they are devoted to family and so it seems strange that these women would sacrifice their marriages in this way... Again, no disrespect to ESTJs, the majority of whom I've found to be very admirable people.

Also, any suggestions on how I can let go of my anger toward this girl, because I hate feeling like steam is coming out of my ears when I have to encounter her on occasion.

Thanks for your help! Sorry this is so long )

 

[SillySapienne]

My older sister is an ESTJ, and hmm, your story here, is very interesting indeed.

First off...

My sister works in production, and she happens to be in a niche in the field where her higher-ups tend to be female.

She is, however, very work-conscious, and she would and does do things that some of us, (myself included), would find phony and generally inappropriate to get "in" with her superiors.

My sister is not flirtatious, by nature, however, though I have seen her be "nice" to males who were in some kind of position to potentially give her something that she wants.

My sister is very popular, probably due to her physical attractiveness, and her unquestionable confidence. Despite this however, (my IsFP sister and I talk about this all the time), she is honestly the most socially retarded popular person we have ever met, meaning she generally fails in picking up social cues, and can rarely tell how people feel, whether it be positive or negative unless this is explicitly expressed/overt.

When my sister is *genuinely* attracted to a male, she will have no problems pursuing him, even if she happens to be in a relationship, but from what I have gathered thus far, she views married men as categorically off-limits.

Perhaps this girl simply wants to gain your hubby's favor so as to climb the corporate ladder, and as I have alluded in my post, this is something an ESTJ female would very likely do.

 

[Neo Genesis]

Its possible that she doesn't know why you dislike her so much, sort of a repeated situation between your fiance and you, in that she sees nothing wrong with being "overlyfriendly" with him. Honestly, I don't think I can help you that much, but my advice would to be upfront with her the next time you two meet. If she truly doesn't know why you never liked her, then I doubt she'll pick up on your cues to stop, and will continue pursuing either you or your fiance until she feels she is back in your social group. I definitely see this tension between you two lasting for a LONG time, so, again I'd suggest you nip it in the bud right now.

On another note, I'm think you're giving her the opportunity to completely play the victim, what with your passive-aggressive approach to the situation.

 

[SillySapienne]

Its possible that she doesn't know why you dislike her so much, sort of a repeated situation between your fiance and you, in that she sees nothing wrong with being "overlyfriendly" with him. Honestly, I don't think I can help you that much, but my advice would to be upfront with her the next time you two meet. If she truly doesn't know why you never liked her, then I doubt she'll pick up on your cues to stop, and will continue pursuing either you or your fiance until she feels she is back in your social group. I definitely see this tension between you two lasting for a LONG time, so, again I'd suggest you nip it in the bud right now.

On another note, I'm think you're giving her the opportunity to completely play the victim, what with your passive-aggressive approach to the situation.

Oooo, Neo brings up a valid point.

Passive-aggressiveness is not a language my sister speaks.

Aggressiveness/blunt-forwardness is.

And believe it or not, my sister, as formidably aggressive as she might be, actually responds well to people who stick up to her and she'll instantly gain respect for them.

 

[Spartacuss]

I wouldn't give her too much of a pass, if I were to go by experience with an ESTJ guy friend. He was very friendly to then bf - probably had the best rapport with him of all my friends. Let's just say he went out of his way to make it clear to him he liked him.
This is the same friend that would try to insinuate himself into my good graces and give praise bundled with subtle snide comments about the relationship as if to suggest he'd be a better fit. Normally, he'd be subtle about it so as not to be obvious that it was a dig at the guy, since that would obviously get him booted from hanging out with us. Nobody could accuse him directly of plotting anything, but his comments or the way he acted made you wonder, yet remain silent because you're not sure where he's coming from.
Shortly after the BF became an EX, guess who became more blatant about his intentions? The same one who would kiss his ass. It was all about biding his time but insinuating himself until he felt the timing was on his side. I don't mean to alarm you, but I think your spidey senses may have been correct and that she has a very good idea what she was doing.

 

[runvardh]

I have a hard time believing she has NO idea; from my own life experience S does NOT mean stupid. See two options, she knows and is trying to make you out to be the mean quiet bitch; or she doesn't know and is hoping her plays are still underground.

 

[SillySapienne]

I have a hard time believing she has NO idea; from my own life experience S does NOT mean stupid. See two options, she knows and is trying to make you out to be the mean quiet bitch; or she doesn't know and is hoping her plays are still underground.

Female Ts, and female STs, in particular, can be quite clueless when it comes to what most of us would consider obvious social cues.

I cannot speak for all ESTJs or Ts in general, but my ESTJ sister and my InTP best friend are both quite oblivious when it comes to reading people, they also both, my ESTJ sister even more so, have relatively low EQs.

 

[Neo Genesis]

I have a hard time believing she has NO idea; from my own life experience S does NOT mean stupid. See two options, she knows and is trying to make you out to be the mean quiet bitch; or she doesn't know and is hoping her plays are still underground.

If I had to guess, I'd say its the former, but my imagination does run rampant sometimes.

 

[King sns]

Who the heck are you kidding. I think she completely knows, and she sounds like a total bitch. :steam: (Speaking from personal experience and bitterness )

Anyways, don't let her get under your skin!!!

 

[runvardh]

Ok, it is possible most of my family is SF, though there is my uncle and aunt... Eh, it's likely possible their normal social attempts just creep me out.

 

[SillySapienne]

Wait, let us find out more about this chick, if her T is relatively low, then perhaps she does know, but if it is relatively high, she probably doesn't.

Also, in what ways was she flirting?

My sister is very much so a one-of-the-guys type of gals, and she has a bazillion more male friends than she does female ones.

I think this woman is being methodical in the ways she is acting towards your fiance, unless of course, she *genuinely* likes him, which might be a possibility.

However, I think the fact that she has no idea that you dislike her acts as evidence towards the fact that she does not actually fancy your fiance, but rather views him as a person who can get her a promotion she so desperately wants.

 

[Colors]

Acceptable levels of friendly flirting vary from couple to couple, and honestly, how is she supposed to read your mind? To cut her off like that is cold.

 

[mwv6r]

The flirting was enough that other friends began commenting on it to me, and when I confronted my boyfriend he acknowledged that she had been acting inappropriately. Examples of the flirting were large volumes of phone calls and text messages, cornering him at parties and talking his ear off with lots of flattery, telling him about her love life in detail and asking him to help her find a guy, turning the conversation back onto herself and into a one-on-one interaction with him if I ever tried to interject, etc.

Thanks for all the comments, this is all very interesting. I had been pretty certain that this girl knew what she was doing and was just being very calculating and manipulative. I still think that's very possible but I'm not positive anymore. Thinking back, there are little instances that could seem to support either theory. I do think she's very strong on the thinking end and has a lot of trouble reading people. However, I also think she harbored some sort of feelings for my fiance (she seemed to get jealous if he paid me a compliment in front of her, and once I saw her get this look of unguarded happiness when he gave her a rare compliment). I've seen her flirt with a lot of her male coworkers (almost exclusively those who are her equals are above, she doesn't pay much attention to those below her), but she seemed particularly enamored with the ones who seemed immune to her wiles (such as my fiance). But whether that means she liked him or just liked the chase I'm not sure. She did seem to have feelings pretty bad for an ENTP coworker who is a friend of my fiancee's. He was the only one I can say 100% for sure that she had genuine feelings for. This guy knew she was infatuated with him, went on a couple dates with her, and then henceforth seemed to get pleasure out of tormenting her by talking to her constantly about how he liked some other girl. Before she was all out trying to get her claws in my guy I felt bad for her over that situation, but now of course I just think it's funny. (Karma!) What really strikes me in that situation though was how oblivious she was to the fact that Mr. ENTP clearly did this just to get under her skin, and how unguarded she was in her crush on him, even after he turned out to obviously be a jerk. That definitely makes me think she is way at the far reaches of the thinking scale, to have such little self-awareness and understanding of peoples' emotional motivations. Either way, I am glad she finally stopped trying to approach my fiance and I at parties/mixers. She got a promotion out of my fiance's office and seems to now be saving her flirting for bigger fish. I know some posters commented that I was being too passive aggressive with her, and that may be true, but I don't mind her making herself the victim in her own mind if it means she'll stay away from me. I just hope it lasts! I get the sense that if I lifted my guard with her for a moment she'd try to get right back in. Anyone else with insights about similar ESTJ women? I am kind of mystified by her behavior and would like to hear more insights or similar stories. Most of the ESTJ women I know may be assertive and blunt (among many positive traits, of course), but they don't approach anything near this girl's level of emotional coldness and unabashed flirtation. (I would say calculation but now I'm not completely sure that she's aware of what she's doing...)

 

[SillySapienne]

How sure are you that she is an ESTJ?

 

[Spartacuss]

It may not even be calculating. Some people lack introspection and just kind of careen into action after action without acknowledging their motives to themselves.

 

[mwv6r]

Pretty positive she's ESTJ. Very extroverted, traditional, conservative. Very work-oriented and talks about work a lot in social settings. Seems to enjoy managing others and can be bossy. Very critical of people she considers inefficient or not good at their job. Attractive but dresses conservatively. Attends church regularly, spends a lot of time with family, etc.

Do you think she might be a different type? It is kind of strange seeing her personality traits on paper because it's hard to get my mind around how she can be so traditional and respectful of social traditions in many ways yet at the same time be such an attention seeker and flirt...

 

[SillySapienne]

Pretty positive she's ESTJ. Very extroverted, traditional, conservative. Very work-oriented and talks about work a lot in social settings. Seems to enjoy managing others and can be bossy. Very critical of people she considers inefficient or not good at their job. Attractive but dresses conservatively. Attends church regularly, spends a lot of time with family, etc.

Do you think she might be a different type? It is kind of strange seeing her personality traits on paper because it's hard to get my mind around how she can be so traditional and respectful of social traditions in many ways yet at the same time be such an attention seeker and flirt...

Yeah, hmm, my sister, who is very much an ESTJ is very extroverted, aggressive and assertive. She is work-oriented simply because she is good at what she does and it pays very well, (she is a fan of acquiring lots of money), but outside of work she likes to pursue/engage in things that she enjoys and usually the last thing she wants to think about, let alone bring up, is work affairs.

My sister isn't really conservative, per se, she is just very stuck in her ways and adheres to the most efficient and effective ways/methods in which to obtain the things she desires. Regarding her dress code, she does not dress conservatively but rather comfortably, she will however dress up every once in awhile.

My sister is NOT a flirt, however, nor is she really an attention seeker though she may and does get a lot of it because she is an attractive, loud, domineering girl.

Also, I am unsure if this is characteristic of the type in general, but my sister is pretty damn masculine, and this is evidently/apparently so.

The girl that you describe sounds uber-girly and cunning in the way that she flirts, whereas my sister is kind of a retard in this department.

 

[Alpha Prime]

I've got the best solution for you: You are attracted to her, she is attracted to your bf, and your bf may enjoy a fling with her. Why not a menage a troi!

 

[mwv6r]

I know this thread is long dead but I have an interesting update... After finishing most of my library's books on Myers-Briggs personality typing I've recently started reading about personality disorders in my spare time -- how everyone has a primary and a couple of secondary disorders that they are prone to and have some characteristics of but do not demonstrate at the level of a full-blown disorder. (Only about 10% of people ever develop actual personality disorders.) For example, I learned that I am prone to an avoidant personality, my fiance is prone to an aggressive personality, my parents are prone to obsessive-compulsive personalities, but we don't cross the threshold into actual personality disorders, etc., etc. Well, long story short, after reading about narcissistic personality disorder it suddenly occurred to me that that label fit my former ESTJ friend to a t. (Not just being prone to narcissism, but I believe she has the actual disorder.) Self-absorbed, arrogant, need to be the center of attention, jockeys for power through manipulation and flattery, inability to relate to others' feelings, etc. In light of that all of our interactions with her make a lot more sense to me! I read that the best way to deal with narcissists is to ignore them (apparently confronting them will enrage the narcissist and may make them hell-bent on destroying you... so I think I'll stick with ignoring her, lol.) Anyway, I recommend The Personality Self-Portrait by John Oldham and Lois Morris if anyone is interested in learning more about this alternate theory on personality typing. A lot of the personality disorders seem to match up nicely with the various Myers-Briggs types; I'll probably post a new thread about that sometime soon )