[MBTI General] ESFJ - Possible for an ENTP to win over?

[redcheerio]

OK, so in general, I get along with everyone I come across. Almost.

However, I somehow have managed to really piss off a few ESFJs I've worked with in the past. Like to an extreme. In particular, two ESFJs, one at my last job, and one at the one before. I'm not sure what I did, but they both really seemed to hate my guts, to the point of trying over a long period of time to get me fired.

So in case it ever happens again, is there anything I can do to win over an annoyed/ pissed off ESFJ? The problem happened early on in both cases, and I could tell there was a problem, but didn't know what to do about it. Or even better, is there anything I should avoid doing to prevent the problem from happening in the first place?

Please don't make this a thread to trash ESFJs, I just want advice from ESFJs, other SJs who might have insight, or other NPs/NTs who have had similar workplace type-interaction issues and figured out how to resolve it.

Help?

 

[Lady_X]

the ones i know are are super sweet and always go way out of their way to help people and all they want is for you to appreciate it and acknowledge that they're being helpful...so my best advice is to do what you can to make them feel appreciated and valued.

 

[redcheerio]

the ones i know are are super sweet and always go way out of their way to help people and all they want is for you to appreciate it and acknowledge that they're being helpful...so my best advice is to do what you can to make them feel appreciated and valued.

Hm, I've seen this mentioned in other threads, too, so is probably something I haven't given enough attention to. And I can relate to not feeling appreciated enough, so is something to think about and pay attention to from now on.

Thanks!

 

[Giggly]

Firstly, Redcheerio, I love your mature tone and it's nice that you made this a thread asking to learn how to understand and get along with the ESFJs.

You might find this thread helpful in some way. It just came to mind.

You seem like a reasonable and nice person to me. Do you have any idea whatsoever what might have pissed them off?

 

[redcheerio]

Firstly, Redcheerio, I love your mature tone and it's nice that you made this a thread asking to learn how to understand and get along with the ESFJs.

You might find this thread helpful in some way. It just came to mind.

You seem like a reasonable and nice person to me. Do you have any idea whatsoever what might have pissed them off?

Thanks, Giggly! Thanks also for the link, and for being reasonable and nice about it yourself.



Wow, amazingdatagirl's situation is SO similar to mine!! I related to LotsOfHeart, too. Someone in that thread also mentioned the fact that because there are more ESFJs in the world, you're going to run into more ESFJ assholes, too. Not because there is a higher proportion of assholes of that type, but because there are more of them, period. (Gawd knows there are some asshole ENTPs out there, too.) I have also known some cool ESFJs, it's just that ESFJ happens to be the type I've had problems with in their unhealthy incarnations.

When I think back about the most recent situation, I think I pissed him off by showing off a bit. For example, when he gave me a math puzzle, I solved it in about 30 seconds, then smiled like this and asked him to give me a "real" math puzzle. I was just joking around and deliberately being a brat to be funny, but I think it pissed him off because it took him a lot longer to solve it.

There were also other times when people came up to both of us to ask engineering questions, and I answered them quickly. I thought it would be OK for me to answer instead of waiting for him, since I had the relevant technical expertise and he didn't, but I think that pissed him off because he was worried it made him look stupid. I didn't realize at the time that he was insecure about his intelligence, especially since he is a manager in his late fifties, and had authority over me. I always thought older people didn't have these issues anymore. I had assumed that he was pretty smart, since I had previously worked with and gotten along with his son, who was very smart, and I had told him I thought his son was really smart.

I think ANOTHER problem was that I kept submitting my timesheets late when I was super busy with work, and I think he took it personally because that was the only part of my work that he really had authority over me with. He took a lot of weird things personally that took me by surprise, but at least now I'm more aware of how it happens.



With the work situation before that and the other ESFJ I referred to, I remember she seemed annoyed from the very first time we met. When the boss introduced us, she seemed disappointed that I was starting there. In that case, it was a really small company, she was pretty new herself, and was the only female engineer until I came along. So I might have been encroaching on her new territory. (That was foreign to me, because I'm used to female engineers being excited and happy to come across other female engineers, like I usually am, since we're not very common.)

Not only that, but I also remember her looking really angry when I played devil's advocate once when she was telling a story about how some guy had been so horrible to her, and I explained that he was just being logical. At that point, I didn't understand that with some people, it's a REALLY BAD IDEA to use logic to contradict someone when they are looking for emotional validation. I understand that better now.



But aside from a few gaffs like that, I sensed in both situations that they were annoyed with me, and continuously tried to be friendly to them. I alternated between trying to be friendly, and giving up and ignoring them. I also had interpreted their need to feel appreciated as a need to be worshipped and sucked up to, and had decided that kissing ass wasn't something I would do.

However, looking at it from a different angle, I think I can try expressing more thanks and appreciation when appropriate. I can also try talking to them from the very beginning if I sense it happening again with anyone else in the future, and be cautious of the things I learned from those 2 ESFJs. So, I think I'm a bit better equipped now to prevent this from happening in the future, but I'm still a bit worried.

I would also be interested in advice for the best way to talk to someone like this if I notice it happening again in the future.

It seems pretty common for NTPs to accidentally offend people or piss them off, so in case I do it again, I'd like to know how to win over an annoyed ESFJ.

 

[Giggly]

Thanks, Giggly! Thanks also for the link, and for being reasonable and nice about it yourself.

Although I'm not an ESFJ, it's my pleasure.

When I think back about the most recent situation, I think I pissed him off by showing off a bit. For example, when he gave me a math puzzle, I solved it in about 30 seconds, then smiled like this and asked him to give me a "real" math puzzle. I was just joking around and deliberately being a brat to be funny, but I think it pissed him off because it took him a lot longer to solve it.

I don't think you did anything wrong here, except maybe rubbing it afterwards (not that his shortcomings are your problem).

There were also other times when people came up to both of us to ask engineering questions, and I answered them quickly. I thought it would be OK for me to answer instead of waiting for him, since I had the relevant technical expertise and he didn't, but I think that pissed him off because he was worried it made him look stupid. I didn't realize at the time that he was insecure about his intelligence, especially since he is a manager in his late fifties, and had authority over me. I always thought older people didn't have these issues anymore. I had assumed that he was pretty smart, since I had previously worked with and gotten along with his son, who was very smart, and I had told him I thought his son was really smart.

He could be going through some stage of fearing being replaced by a younger and quicker person. Older people get that way. Still, not your problem. It's his. If this is the case, you wouldn't be wrong not to play along with him. If you're feeling gracious, I guess you could defer such outdoings. It's your choice though.

I think ANOTHER problem was that I kept submitting my timesheets late when I was super busy with work, and I think he took it personally because that was the only part of my work that he really had authority over me with. He took a lot of weird things personally that took me by surprise, but at least now I'm more aware of how it happens.

My most recent boss was ESFJ. I loved her to death and she acted anal about small matters like this often. I never took it personally or like she was out to get me. Instead I saw it as a learning opportunity for me. There was a reason why she was the boss (she's proven herself overtime and his good at what she does) so I saw my time there as a way to learn everything I could from her and with small details like that, I felt like it could only make me better as a worker.

With the work situation before that and the other ESFJ I referred to, I remember she seemed annoyed from the very first time we met. When the boss introduced us, she seemed disappointed that I was starting there. In that case, it was a really small company, she was pretty new herself, and was the only female engineer until I came along. So I might have been encroaching on her new territory. (That was foreign to me, because I'm used to female engineers being excited and happy to come across other female engineers, like I usually am, since we're not very common.)

No idea what this is about. People are weird.

Not only that, but I also remember her looking really angry when I played devil's advocate once when she was telling a story about how some guy had been so horrible to her, and I explained that he was just being logical. At that point, I didn't understand that with some people, it's a REALLY BAD IDEA to use logic to contradict someone when they are looking for emotional validation. I understand that better now.

lol,yeah that's probably a bad idea if you don't know her really well and she's asked for that kind of advice.

But aside from a few gaffs like that, I sensed in both situations that they were annoyed with me, and continuously tried to be friendly to them. I alternated between trying to be friendly, and giving up and ignoring them. I also had interpreted their need to feel appreciated as a need to be worshipped and sucked up to, and had decided that kissing ass wasn't something I would do.

How do you want to act towards them naturally? What is the culture like at your job? Is everyone buddy-buddy, or can you get away with staying to yourself without consequence?

However, looking at it from a different angle, I think I can try expressing more thanks and appreciation when appropriate. I can also try talking to them from the very beginning if I sense it happening again with anyone else in the future, and be cautious of the things I learned from those 2 ESFJs. So, I think I'm a bit better equipped now to prevent this from happening in the future, but I'm still a bit worried.

Expressing thanks and appreciation when appropriate sounds really good.

I would also be interested in advice for the best way to talk to someone like this if I notice it happening again in the future.

If they're not really saying what they are pissed off about, then it could mean that you're tapping into their insecurities which are hard for people to talk about. I don't really know what advice to give you here. If it were me, I'd probably just try to avoid doing those things again that irritated them in the first place and look for an open comfortable door in future conversation to bring it up and try to gain some insight (which may never come).

It seems pretty common for NTPs to accidentally offend people or piss them off, so in case I do it again, I'd like to know how to win over an annoyed ESFJ.

Invite them to lunch many times and talk to them like normal so they can see how personable you really are.

 

[Lady_X]

i wonder if fe being your tertiary function is why it bothers you so much as a dom function in others...it seems to in me a bit with te

but to comment on your above post...yeah it seems you offended their fe. you weren't being polite (obvious to me you were joking) but i don't think that matters to them. it was impolite in their eyes. you were not acknowledging their feelings or the showing them the respect they felt they deserved.

 

[Haven]

My best friend over the last 10 years is ENTP and he really annoyed me when I first met him, so yes it is certainly possible.

However, at work there's this other ENTP that posted crap on my facebook when I accidentally left myself logged in, so the cycle continues.

 

[IZthe411]

I have a problem with some ESFJs myself. And I'm ISTJ!

I think those who seem to come at me with Fe...barrage of questions that they are asking as making a connection, but they don't take the discussion any further.

There's an ESFJ at work who is real buddy buddy with the ENTP on the team....they get along well, but the ESFJ becomes the butt of his jokes.

 

[redcheerio]

Although I'm not an ESFJ, it's my pleasure.

Thanks. I kind of see INTPs as being like introverted twins to ENTPs, since we have the same functions but in a different order. So while we relate to people differently, we think similarly. So I figured that it might be similar with ISFJs and ESFJs? That although you interact differently with people, you might understand how they think or where they're coming from? (BTW, I've never met an ISFJ I didn't get along with.)

I don't think you did anything wrong here, except maybe rubbing it afterwards (not that his shortcomings are your problem).

He could be going through some stage of fearing being replaced by a younger and quicker person. Older people get that way. Still, not your problem. It's his. If this is the case, you wouldn't be wrong not to play along with him. If you're feeling gracious, I guess you could defer such outdoings. It's your choice though.

My most recent boss was ESFJ. I loved her to death and she acted anal about small matters like this often. I never took it personally or like she was out to get me. Instead I saw it as a learning opportunity for me. There was a reason why she was the boss (she's proven herself overtime and his good at what she does) so I saw my time there as a way to learn everything I could from her and with small details like that, I felt like it could only make me better as a worker.

It's true, and I think his point was valid, even if I think he overreacted. I didn't take it as seriously as I should have, and didn't realize how vehemently he would react to my not taking it seriously. I've learned my lesson from the experience, though. I've also learned my lesson to be more careful not to make other people feel stupid.

No idea what this is about. People are weird.

lol,yeah that's probably a bad idea if you don't know her really well and she's asked for that kind of advice.

How do you want to act towards them naturally? What is the culture like at your job? Is everyone buddy-buddy, or can you get away with staying to yourself without consequence?

I've found that for me, staying away from them only made things worse. I think introverts might be able to get away from it, but since I tend to be pretty sociable with most people, it probably stands out when I'm not sociable with anyone else who is sociable, if that makes sense.

Expressing thanks and appreciation when appropriate sounds really good.

If they're not really saying what they are pissed off about, then it could mean that you're tapping into their insecurities which are hard for people to talk about. I don't really know what advice to give you here. If it were me, I'd probably just try to avoid doing those things again that irritated them in the first place and look for an open comfortable door in future conversation to bring it up and try to gain some insight (which may never come).

Invite them to lunch many times and talk to them like normal so they can see how personable you really are.

Hm, that makes sense, thanks. Funny you should mention going to lunch a lot, because she used to invite me to lunch sometimes, and I never opened up to her because I didn't trust her. She used to complain about other coworkers when they weren't around, and use things they'd confided in her against them with the boss. Now I'm wondering if she was sincerely trying to make an effort, and I made things worse by keeping quiet. I always had the impression she was trying to set traps for me, since she often said things to the boss to get him pissed off at others in the office. Hm, I'm still not sure whether I was being smart or paranoid.

 

[redcheerio]

i wonder if fe being your tertiary function is why it bothers you so much as a dom function in others...it seems to in me a bit with te

Interesting! I've heard that before and I'll bet there's something to it, although I don't understand it. Do you?

but to comment on your above post...yeah it seems you offended their fe. you weren't being polite (obvious to me you were joking) but i don't think that matters to them. it was impolite in their eyes. you were not acknowledging their feelings or the showing them the respect they felt they deserved.

Yes, I think that's it. I'll have to be a lot more careful about that in the future.

Thanks!

 

[redcheerio]

My best friend over the last 10 years is ENTP and he really annoyed me when I first met him, so yes it is certainly possible.

Wow, interesting, thanks! What was it you found annoying about him when you first met? And how did you end up being best friends?

Is it common for you to start off disliking people until you get to know them better? What is it that changes your mind about them?

However, at work there's this other ENTP that posted crap on my facebook when I accidentally left myself logged in, so the cycle continues.

Hmmmm, yeah, that would be annoying. I can see it being amusing if it wasn't too manipulative, but I can also see it being really nasty, depending what it was, how well you know each other, and whether it made you look like a dick or an idiot to your FB friends.

(I'll resist the urge to one-up you with stories about some of the things my ex-coworkers have done to me )

 

[21%]

I'm no expert on ESFJs, but my mom's ISFJ -- and I think they are close enough. One thing that I think is worth mentioning is that SFJs might expect you to following the traditional female role more (be nice, friendly, smile a lot, empathetic), which you don't naturally do. My female INTP cousin had a lot of problems with her SFJ roommate, because the roommate felt she was too direct, too blunt, and sometimes rude -- which wasn't my cousin's intention at all! (They usually ate together. The roommate always asked my cousin what she wanted to eat, and my cousin always replied directly, and they usually ended up eating the thing my cousin suggested. The roommate never argued, but felt that the fact that my cousin never asked back what she wanted to eat that day was a sign of selfishness)

An NT female's independence could come off as 'cold' to feeling people, especially if they don't know you well enough. Your logic-talking could be taken as rudeness when more feeling-oriented behaviors are expected, especially if someone comes to you with a problem and is expecting empathy.

 

[redcheerio]

I have a problem with some ESFJs myself. And I'm ISTJ!

Wow, that's funny! The ESFJ I worked with 2 jobs ago was the ISTJ boss's absolute fav, who could do no wrong.

You don't really strike me as ISTJ, but then again, I'm not sure I've ever communicated with an ISTJ over a forum before, so I have no idea.

I think those who seem to come at me with Fe...barrage of questions that they are asking as making a connection, but they don't take the discussion any further.

Wait, I'm not sure I understand this sentence. I think you're saying that you don't like the ones who come with a barrage of questions as an attempt to make a connection, but don't take the discussion further than that?

Anyway yeah, I don't quite get how to connect with some of them, either.

There's an ESFJ at work who is real buddy buddy with the ENTP on the team....they get along well, but the ESFJ becomes the butt of his jokes.

That's cool, it's good at least that the ESFJ is good-natured about it and can take a joke. He should try doing it back sometime.

 

[redcheerio]

I'm no expert on ESFJs, but my mom's ISFJ -- and I think they are close enough. One thing that I think is worth mentioning is that SFJs might expect you to following the traditional female role more (be nice, friendly, smile a lot, empathetic), which you don't naturally do. My female INTP cousin had a lot of problems with her SFJ roommate, because the roommate felt she was too direct, too blunt, and sometimes rude -- which wasn't my cousin's intention at all! (They usually ate together. The roommate always asked my cousin what she wanted to eat, and my cousin always replied directly, and they usually ended up eating the thing my cousin suggested. The roommate never argued, but felt that the fact that my cousin never asked back what she wanted to eat that day was a sign of selfishness)

An NT female's independence could come off as 'cold' to feeling people, especially if they don't know you well enough. Your logic-talking could be taken as rudeness when more feeling-oriented behaviors are expected, especially if someone comes to you with a problem and is expecting empathy.

Hm, those are some awesome points, and very insightful, thanks!

I think that in terms of being polite, friendly, and smiling a lot, I'm pretty good with that. The problem comes when I open my mouth.... I think the part about using logic when someone is expecting empathy is a big part of my past f-ups....

Thanks for the great insight, everyone!

 

[IZthe411]

Redcheerio when they weren't around, and use things they'd confided in her against them with the boss.

This ESFJ I work with- "Fat Bastard" did that to me. I said something in a meeting between us- basically how I did not agree with the boss' approach to our work. We were in his office during our 1200th remediation, and he spun what I said as if I trashed the boss, and he's this loyalist. It pissed me off to no end.

Mind you, I work with 2 of them, one of them, the younger one who I was talking about attacking me with his good intentioned Fe, is actually a nice guy who wants to everyone around him to be happy. The one above is older, thinks he's the cat's meow, and wears tight polos. TMI with the exposed belly action we get sometimes.

 

[IZthe411]

Is it common for you to start off disliking people until you get to know them better? What is it that changes your mind about them?

[/SIZE]

Yes. I find this is a J tendency, probably more IxxJ, to make instant judgements about people and situations. Especially with Si users, we immediately associate what's in front of us with what's happened before, and prepare ourselves for a similar experience.

 

[IZthe411]

Wow, that's funny! The ESFJ I worked with 2 jobs ago was the ISTJ boss's absolute fav, who could do no wrong.

Definitely not the case here. I think our ISTJ boss everytime Fat ESFJ leaves his office.

You don't really strike me as ISTJ, but then again, I'm not sure I've ever communicated with an ISTJ over a forum before, so I have no idea.

After reading some of the descriptions they have of us, I say the same thing about myself. But if I go by functions, I'm definitely Si/Te. I have good Ne, and lately have become more aware of my Fi moments. I'm pretty balanced.

Wait, I'm not sure I understand this sentence. I think you're saying that you don't like the ones who come with a barrage of questions as an attempt to make a connection, but don't take the discussion further than that?

Yes! I think it's because the answers to the questions are sometimes so obvious that it's a waste of breath to ask them, so you must be using that as a springboard to something else. I'll wait for the connector, but nothing happens..............

And the one guy who's nice, it's like he jumps on me with questions, (like he's doing right now), and if I don't answer right away, he asks more questions. I call that the Fe attack.

Anyway yeah, I don't quite get how to connect with some of them, either.

I just hate being told how I 'should' do anything, especially when they say I was as 'wrong' or 'mean', especially when I'm joking.

That's cool, it's good at least that the ESFJ is good-natured about it and can take a joke. He should try doing it back sometime.

He does.

 

[Giggly]

Is it common for you to start off disliking people until you get to know them better? What is it that changes your mind about them?

I don't start off disliking people, I start off liking everyone, probably too much so... and sometimes I'll be so shocked to find out that they dislike me. I really don't think it's due to any type differences. I think, initially, some people are just more guarded emotionally and others are not so guarded, and then there is a persons natural moods that factor into this (i.e. are they naturally grumpy or naturally happy person?)

Thanks. I kind of see INTPs as being like introverted twins to ENTPs, since we have the same functions but in a different order. So while we relate to people differently, we think similarly. So I figured that it might be similar with ISFJs and ESFJs? That although you interact differently with people, you might understand how they think or where they're coming from? (BTW, I've never met an ISFJ I didn't get along with.)

*bows to you*
TBH, I don't like answering ESFJ questions but there are so few of them here that I don't want to leave people hanging who genuinely want help, and aren't just here to vent/rant/blow of steam.

It's true, and I think his point was valid, even if I think he overreacted. I didn't take it as seriously as I should have, and didn't realize how vehemently he would react to my not taking it seriously. I've learned my lesson from the experience, though. I've also learned my lesson to be more careful not to make other people feel stupid.

Awww, I don't know how anyone could not like you. You're so adorable.

I've found that for me, staying away from them only made things worse. I think introverts might be able to get away from it, but since I tend to be pretty sociable with most people, it probably stands out when I'm not sociable with anyone else who is sociable, if that makes sense.

Yes, it does make sense. Something I do for my emotional well being and health is start over fresh with people, at least in my own mind. It helps me to clear out any negative emotional thoughts/baggage-- which weigh me down and I dislike with a passion. This may not change whatever the other persons annoying thoughts and behaviors are, but it helps me feel more at peace somehow. Just sharing more personal anecdotes.

Hm, that makes sense, thanks. Funny you should mention going to lunch a lot, because she used to invite me to lunch sometimes, and I never opened up to her because I didn't trust her. She used to complain about other coworkers when they weren't around, and use things they'd confided in her against them with the boss. Now I'm wondering if she was sincerely trying to make an effort, and I made things worse by keeping quiet. I always had the impression she was trying to set traps for me, since she often said things to the boss to get him pissed off at others in the office. Hm, I'm still not sure whether I was being smart or paranoid.

I think you were being smart... I would have done the same thing with someone I didn't trust. Maybe lunch is a bad idea then if she's a backstabber. Knowing this I wouldn't even care if she didn't like me. There's nothing you can do about it. Please remember that not all ESFJs are that way though.

 

[digesthisickness]

i feel ya, redcheerio. i accidentally piss people off a lot by being flippant about things that others take seriously without realizing until it's too late that i've done so. hanging around with others that get me for a good amount of time can cause me to be a bit too comfortable with being myself and that causes problems when i again get around others who don't know me as well. i forget how truly badly i can come off if not careful, but we do learn and we do want to learn and that combination, more often than not, wins out in the end. great for us; great for them.

sadly, a lot of our kind of kidding around comes in the form of faux cockiness. i mean, sure, we can be cocky, but unlike those who truly are full of themselves, we're actually aware that we're being full of crap when we do it. hell, even when we're really feeling cocky, we're aware of how much more we have to learn. however, those who don't know that, only see the surface BS, and believe we really think we're as great as we're joking we are.

the way i usually 'fix' these situations, is to go to them for help. not only does it show that we value something they can contribute, but it also gives them the chance to realize that perhaps they'd judged the situation wrong and opens them up to giving us another chance. asking for advice (about anything) one or two more times after that, mixed in with being yourself, but making it more obvious that you know you're full of crap when acting that way allows them to see you more clearly.

hope this helps.