Depressives

[Mole]

I know misery loves company but I had no idea it was so aggressive.

I love company too but I took it for granted that everyone was seeking the joie de vie.

This was my mistake and quite a big mistake.

So I very foolishly engaged with depressives.

Depressives have a world view that they not just cling to tenaciously but aggressively promote.

And they will often insist on politeness and good manners while they emotionally poison you.

Depressives want to, insist on, confirming their world view.

And their thinking is good, it is their emotions are vile.

And so they can be logical and good mannered, while inducting you into their poisonous emotions.

Depressives are a bit like paranoid schizophrenics who are the most logical people in the world.

So depressives rationalise their emotional world view and try to foist it on you.

Depressives are quite like drug addicts - no matter what they say, they always return like a dog to its own vomit - to drugs or, in this case, their depressive emotions.

There are two big problems. The first is that emotions are invisible and so we often overlook them - and they are very easily denied.

Also emotions are contagious and can easily infect others without their knowing.

Also depressives are in very large numbers - as depressive feelings are one of the most common complaints brought to doctors.

Also we live in the therapeutic society and are enjoined to sympathise with depressives. To sympathise is the worst thing you can do - it doesn't help the depressive and leaves you open to contagion.

To sympathise with depressives means you are going to feel the same poisonous emotions as the depressives.

The safe way to relate to depressives is to empathise because you can empathise without feeling the same as.

But the problem is most think they are empathic when they have no training in empathy, and all they can do is sympathise in the guise of empathy. And so quite naturally, they feel the same as the depressives.

And so depression is of now epidemic proportions in the West.

We have succeeded, at least in Australia, of protecting ourselves against AIDS by the use of prophylactics. But we have no protection against depressives.

Depressive emotions are invisible and contagious and depressives are emotionally aggressive.

 

[disregard]

They're a bit like black holes.

They sap your energy and positive emotions, and still they won't be satisfied. They'll be even more depressed!

I have no patience for it.

 

[Mole]

They're a bit like black holes.

They sap your energy and positive emotions, and still they won't be satisfied. They'll be even more depressed!

I have no patience for it.

Yes, this is a good way of putting it.

And yes, emotionally feeding a depressive is a bit like feeding a poker machine - a poker machine takes all your good money while a depressive takes all your good emotions.

And the tragedy is that this doesn't help the depressive or you.

Lucky you are short of patience.

 

[Totenkindly]

More psych, less rant, please -- after all, this is the "psych" section, correct? Rants go elsewhere. Thanks.

 

[Mycroft]

I know misery loves company but I had no idea it was so aggressive...

Sorry things didn't work out with your boy/girlfriend, but thanks for the superb example of vilifying one's own inferior function.

 

[Jack Flak]

Victor has no obvious type, so I've begun to think he's some kind of Noosphere-based deity.

 

[strawberryfields]

This post irritates me. I hope you never get depression Victor, but if you did it might give you more insight into the feelings of a depressed person. People don't choose to have depression - many desperately wish they didn't have it - and yet your post sounds like you're blaming them and holding them responsible. The very fact that depression has such a strong genetic component demonstrates a lot of it is outwith the control of the sufferer. I have known people you would never imagine would get depressed become depressed, and suddenly understand it is an illness and not a choice.

'Depressives insist on confirming their world view' - I wonder if you say that because they seem not to listen to rational alternatives. However, that again isn't necessarily a choice on their part - often your capacity to think rationally is inhibited by depression, meaning you genuinely believe the world is a black place with no hope. Regardless of whether or not that's the truth, sometimes you need to accept that is the place people are in, and there is no simple verbal solution. The fact that depressive feelings often lead people to committing suicide shows how seriously they believe in their hopelessness.

As for the 'dangers' of sympathising and empathising with depressed people, yes perhaps there are some potential problems. Depressive feelings can be 'contagious', but I think there is more of a danger of taking the judgemental approach you are taking. Stigma and blame attached to mental illness help nobody - what helps people is an understanding of the illness, and a willingness to come alongside them in it. Also, I don't think a great deal of depression is caused by sympathising with another depressed person. That might cause you to feel down, but unless you're very close to them or spend a large amount of time with them, it's unlikely to give you clinical depression. However it's not unheard of, so perhaps people with a tendency to empathise a lot need to try and learn ways to protect themselves from feeling the same feelings as depressed people around them. 'To sympathise is the worst thing you can do' - to me, that sounds cruel. I will sympathise with a depressed person because they are often in a painful place and in need of love and to know someone cares. I wonder if your approach of offering no sympathy would genuinely help the problem, or if it would just lead to more shame, judgement and isolation amongst depressed people. I suspect the latter.

 

[ring the bell]

This post irritates me. I hope you never get depression Victor, but if you did it might give you more insight into the feelings of a depressed person. People don't choose to have depression - many desperately wish they didn't have it - and yet your post sounds like you're blaming them and holding them responsible. The very fact that depression has such a strong genetic component demonstrates a lot of it is outwith the control of the sufferer. I have known people you would never imagine would get depressed become depressed, and suddenly understand it is an illness and not a choice.

'Depressives insist on confirming their world view' - I wonder if you say that because they seem not to listen to rational alternatives. However, that again isn't necessarily a choice on their part - often your capacity to think rationally is inhibited by depression, meaning you genuinely believe the world is a black place with no hope. Regardless of whether or not that's the truth, sometimes you need to accept that is the place people are in, and there is no simple verbal solution. The fact that depressive feelings often lead people to committing suicide shows how seriously they believe in their hopelessness.

As for the 'dangers' of sympathising and empathising with depressed people, yes perhaps there are some potential problems. Depressive feelings can be 'contagious', but I think there is more of a danger of taking the judgemental approach you are taking. Stigma and blame attached to mental illness help nobody - what helps people is an understanding of the illness, and a willingness to come alongside them in it. Also, I don't think a great deal of depression is caused by sympathising with another depressed person. That might cause you to feel down, but unless you're very close to them or spend a large amount of time with them, it's unlikely to give you clinical depression. However it's not unheard of, so perhaps people with a tendency to empathise a lot need to try and learn ways to protect themselves from feeling the same feelings as depressed people around them. 'To sympathise is the worst thing you can do' - to me, that sounds cruel. I will sympathise with a depressed person because they are often in a painful place and in need of love and to know someone cares. I wonder if your approach of offering no sympathy would genuinely help the problem, or if it would just lead to more shame, judgement and isolation amongst depressed people. I suspect the latter.

DITTO... I hope for your sake, Victor, you never find yourself in the throws of a depression. It is NOT a pleasent place to be and no one readily chooses to be there. It's different for everyone, but I can't begin to explain how it feels to be in an ever downward spiraling mental place where you wonder if you have truly hit rock bottom. You want to feel better and be happy, but it's not something you can just snap your fingers at and have appear. Often times chemical imbalances in the brain are the culprit. Would you have the same opinion towards someone with a handicap or a heart condition for being unable to function as well in society (due to something out of their control)?

I say this.. If people are unpleasent to be around, don't be around them. While you are incredibly warranted in this world to have your own opinion, do be certain that all of society and the way people operate will not change. Depressed individuals will always be present and if you don't have the desire to deal with those individuals in the throws of inner termoil, do just stay away. Your attitude of treating it as a public nuisance does not and will not help the person in question.

 

[Dwigie]

I know someone who was depressive and probably commited suicide because of that, we're not exactly sure if it's the case but he had said he wanted to in the past, never took him seriously.
That actually offended me. I'm sure if you were in their situation you'd want some sympathy...We didn't show him much sympathy to be honest. We never realized he needed help because you know, things like this they seem so "otherwordly" and over dramatic.You think, oh "this could never happen to someone I know" and then it does. I never realized how badly in shape he was until it was too late. Depressed people need help, they're human beings, they're not monsters out to get you and if they hurt you it's not exactly "intentionally", they often put on cynical fronts and a "know-it-all" attitude. Not giving them sympathy is like actually reinforcing their "nobody cares about me" view of life....anyways maybe I'm just generalizing on one person but it's sure that they need help.

 

[cafe]

I'll take a nice, quiet Depressive over a Manic any day.

 

[colmena]

I don't think those who are depressed are anything of an interpersonal lost cause. Talking to people (forums rather than one-to-one, at first) helped me at my lowest. It gave me a chance to be passionate and creative at my leisure and then receive recognition for it. Then singular people became interested in me, and that took things to a new level: I began to feel a sense of giving that I found very rewarding, and there's something deeply beautiful and esteem boosting in the thought of someone having the time just for you. That you're worth someone's time with no ulterior motive (except perhaps the reciprocated joy of connecting with another); I hadn't believed that before, and then I got proof. I suppose I have the internet to thank for that.

I think if anything can help, it's connecting with good people. The people of Holism, the altruists. And simply the optimists; those who can emphasise the good in others. It's infectious.

 

[Dwigie]

I don't think those who are depressed are anything of an interpersonal lost cause. Talking to people (forums rather than one-to-one, at first) helped me at my lowest. It gave me a chance to be passionate and creative at my leisure and then receive recognition for it. Then singular people became interested in me, and that took things to a new level: I began to feel a sense of giving that I found very rewarding, and there's something deeply beautiful and esteem boosting in the thought of someone having the time just for you. That you're worth someone's time with no ulterior motive (except perhaps the reciprocated joy of connecting with another); I hadn't believed that before, and then I got proof. I suppose I have the internet to thank for that.

I think if anything can help, it's connecting with good people. The people of Holism, the altruists. And simply the optimists; those who can emphasise the good in others. It's infectious.

couldn't agree more on that.

 

[heart]

We have succeeded, at least in Australia, of protecting ourselves against AIDS by the use of prophylactics.
.

Over confidence can lead to set backs:


Unsafe sex drives HIV infection rate to 10-year high

Ruth Pollard Health Reporter
October 12, 2006

 

[Giggly]

I think it should be stated that I don't think there are any depressives who are happy to be depressed.

However, there is one type that is depressed because it feels comfortable to them. Comfortable in the sense that depression is familiar to them. And they may fear living in a different way. A more happy way. A way that they may have never experienced before in their life and thus it is unknown to them. Fear of the unknown can be a very powerful force for many people.

I also don't think they seek to draw others into depression with them either, but rather, to protect and/or defend their own depressed (=comfortable) state. And they do this because depression is viewed by society as an uncool way to be and society says that those who are depressed are to be relieved of their depression right away.

That said, I don't think anyone is immune to having moments of sadness or depression. Life is full of ups and downs. And we all need someone to connect with in these moments, maybe to help. Sadness simply an emotion. So people who are depressed deserve compassion. But of course, only to the point where giving compassion begins to depress you, the giver, particularly if you are sensitive to that.

I am uncomfortable when I feel sad/depressed and desperately try to get out of that state, usually with success (knock on wood), but this is a testament to how important a persons comfort zone is to them. So I understand the type of depressed who like to stay there.

 

[Mole]

Confusing Sympathy and Empathy

This is an interesting problem.

We all like to think we are good. So we all like to think we are sympathetic. And we all like to think we are empathetic.

But sympathy is natural. Sympathy is intuitive. Mothers sympathise with their babies and their babies sympathise with them.

On the other hand, empathy is counter-intuitive. Empathy is unnatural. Empathy must be learnt in exactly the same way literacy is learnt.

Everyone learns to speak their language at home with their mother. We learn to speak intuitively. We learn to speak naturally. We learn to speak sympathetically.

On the other hand, we learn to read and write - we become literate - by being compelled by the State to leave our sympathetic home and go to an institution, with specially trained staff.

We are compelled by law to learn to read and write - there is nothing natural about it.

Literacy is counter-intuitive.

And empathy is counter-intuitive.

But I'll bet my boots no one here has learnt to empathise. But instead, foolishly confuse empathy with sympathy.

This is unfortunate because whereas sympathy is nice, empathy is uniquely helpful.

 

[Jack Flak]

I've always thought of empathy as understanding the position (emotional or otherwise) of another. Putting oneself in another's "boots." Is that the definition you're using?

 

[Mole]

I've always thought of empathy as understanding the position (emotional or otherwise) of another. Putting oneself in another's "boots." Is that the definition you're using?

G'day Jack, It's good to hear from you.

But I would say that putting oneself in another's boots is sympathising.

And this is the natural thing to do - it is the good thing to do - it is the intuitive thing to do. And I think the Good Book enjoins us to do just that.

And we all want to be good. We all want to be natural. We all want to relate to one another naturally and intuitively.

Also we have a strong desire to belong - we do have a strong desire to be the same as. We have a strong desire to be the same as our mother, so we learn to speak her language. We have a strong desire to be the same as our peers, so we all wear jeans.

We have a strong, almost overwhelming, desire for sympathy.

And remember 'sympathy' comes from the Greek, meaning to feel the same.

Whereas empathy also comes from the Greek, but means to feel with. So you can empathise without feeling the same as.

So empathy means the opposite of sympathy - empathy means the opposite of putting oneself in another's boots.

I would like to say, on a personal note, that I think sympathy and empathy are both essential.

But I think the difference is important - where sympathy is like learning to speak intuitively at home, empathy is like learning to read and write counter-intuitively at school.

So it is possible to become empathically literate - but it requires lots and lots of practice - just like learning to read and write. Empathy doesn't come naturally - despite what we might like to think - and we think like this because we quite naturally confuse sympathy and empathy.

After all, they kinda look the same, don't they?

 

[Jack Flak]

Okay. Those are the definitions I use too, I just didn't phrase it as well as you. Thanks. I have to say, I'm usually quite skilled at empathy, but I almost always remain detached, and therefore lack sympathy.

 

[Mole]

I think it should be stated that I don't think there are any depressives who are happy to be depressed.

Sure, and I am sure you are right - there are no depressives who are happy.

And you are right that sadness is an emotion that passes like any other emotion.

And you are right - we all like someone to connect with - to share our happiness and joy as well as our inevitable sadnesses.

In fact you wrote to me the other day asking me to be your friend. I replied but you made it clear you wanted to be a MySpace friend - the kind of friend you have when you are not having a friend.

I felt sad at this but the feeling is slowly passing - and I think it the talking about it that helps me to watch it pass.

But what a shame, what a shame that the Noosphere has made talking to one another so easy but has debased friendship.

 

[Mole]

Sorry things didn't work out with your boy/girlfriend, but thanks for the superb example of vilifying one's own inferior function.

Things haven't worked out with a number of girlfriends - yet each one of them changed me forever - and each one of them remains part of me forever.

I always try to lead by example so I am delighted to be a superb example, even it it is only to confirm my inferiority.