Camden, NJ, de-funding the war-zones created by police, refunding peaceful police

[ygolo]

The story police brutality and protests are fairly consistent, something peaceful is happening, even if maybe the situation isn't entirely lawful, though often it is...until the police arrive or take action.

At that point, both black and blue lives are lost, as well as others.

There is no question that the U.S.'s law enforcement has a long history of brutality against blacks from it's very origins of lynch mobs that enforced slavery as the law. There are plenty of other ways that these lynch mobs have been allowed to be part of the law since then, from various forms of laws, including the original Jim Crow, to the modern data analytics based Jim Crow 2.0, the prison industrial complex, the "war" on drugs, "broken windows", stop and frisk, 3 strikes etc.

The idea is to de-fund the legacy of lynch mobs and to refund a better version of police. A version of police that doesn't freak out and piss their pants through their guns. A version that is founded on understanding and serving their community rather than waging war on it. A version who has a core training in social work and mental health care rather than "warrior" and fire arms training.

This is what they did in Camden, New Jersey

Violent crimes have dropped 42% in seven years, according to city crime data provided by the department. The crime rate has dropped from 79 per 1,000 to 44 per 1,000, the data shows.
[...]
Cappelli credits the improvement to new "community-oriented policing," which prizes partnership and problem-solving over violence and punishment.

What are your thoughts on the idea?

 

[ceecee]

The story police brutality and protests are fairly consistent, something peaceful is happening, even if maybe the situation isn't entirely lawful, though often it is...until the police arrive or take action.

At that point, both black and blue lives are lost, as well as others.

There is no question that the U.S.'s law enforcement has a long history of brutality against blacks from it's very origins of lynch mobs that enforced slavery as the law. There are plenty of other ways that these lynch mobs have been allowed to be part of the law since then, from various forms of laws, including the original Jim Crow, to the modern data analytics based Jim Crow 2.0, the prison industrial complex, the "war" on drugs, "broken windows", stop and frisk, 3 strikes etc.

The idea is to de-fund the legacy of lynch mobs and to refund a better version of police. A version of police that doesn't freak out and piss their pants through their guns. A version that is founded on understanding and serving their community rather than waging war on it. A version who has a core training in social work and mental health care rather than "warrior" and fire arms training.

This is what they did in Camden, New Jersey


What are your thoughts on the idea?

Sounds like it's working, let's do more of it in more places.

 

[ceecee]

This too:

• Abolish cash bail
• End the war on drugs
• Ban civil asset forfeiture
• Abolish for-profit prisons
• Abolish qualified immunity
• Abolish mandatory minimums
• Abolish prison communication fees
• Release all nonviolent drug offenders

 

[rav3n]

The story police brutality and protests are fairly consistent, something peaceful is happening, even if maybe the situation isn't entirely lawful, though often it is...until the police arrive or take action.

At that point, both black and blue lives are lost, as well as others.

There is no question that the U.S.'s law enforcement has a long history of brutality against blacks from it's very origins of lynch mobs that enforced slavery as the law. There are plenty of other ways that these lynch mobs have been allowed to be part of the law since then, from various forms of laws, including the original Jim Crow, to the modern data analytics based Jim Crow 2.0, the prison industrial complex, the "war" on drugs, "broken windows", stop and frisk, 3 strikes etc.

The idea is to de-fund the legacy of lynch mobs and to refund a better version of police. A version of police that doesn't freak out and piss their pants through their guns. A version that is founded on understanding and serving their community rather than waging war on it. A version who has a core training in social work and mental health care rather than "warrior" and fire arms training.

This is what they did in Camden, New Jersey


What are your thoughts on the idea?

This is fantastic and as it should be, to protect and serve, not to brutalize and kill.

 

[anticlimatic]

Is Camden NJ a model for change in US police forces? Yes and no | News | Al Jazeera

Policing was not abolished in the city. The Camden County Police Department took over after the police union and department, both run by the city, were dissolved. The county was able to roughly double its police force due to lower salaries.

So the lesson here is more police brought crime rates down. Shocker.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The idea is to de-fund the legacy of lynch mobs and to refund a better version of police. A version of police that doesn't freak out and piss their pants through their guns. A version that is founded on understanding and serving their community rather than waging war on it. A version who has a core training in social work and mental health care rather than "warrior" and fire arms training.

This is what they did in Camden, New Jersey


What are your thoughts on the idea?

Well for me this is the definition of police, to genuinely serve the community. If there is no this factor then you basically have rogue militia doing the police work. Here the police isn't allowed to pull out the guns except in the most extreme situations and I don't know when was the last time I heard them shoot someone (especially random dudes on the street). Here doing that is a crime even if you are Police. While on the other hand citizens can't carry guns legally around and everything above simple hunting guns is basically 100% out of law in all combinations. So the odds that someone will shoot someone either way are fairly minimal. Therefore the guns left from the last war are the only real problem in the mix. But those usually end up as a suicide weapon of the veterans, especially since classic street crime is almost none existent.


However for me the key isn't really in the police (or force in general). The key is having functional healthcare as human right, affordable and productive education system, elections that are popular vote based, clean water supply ... etc. Because that makes classic street crime kinda pointless, since your life can't collapse as long as society around you stands. What lowers the tensions and poverty that fed the crime scene. Once you have plenty of crime around you are basically already too late.

 

[Maou]

Im not entirely on board for abolishing Bail, because sometimes innocent people get locked up. Then can't save anything they own if they are in more than a week.. This happened to my Lebanese friend who was arrested by a swat team after a standoff he didn't even know was going on after a night of drinking. The girl he was with called the cops on him, saying he was armed because she was fucking crazy. He could have got shot dead right there too. If he didn't get bail, he would have lost his job, home he just bought, and his cat would have died because no one could get inside to feed it. It takes months to process charges.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Im not entirely on board for abolishing Bail, because sometimes innocent people get locked up. Then can't save anything they own if they are in more than a week.. This happened to my Lebanese friend who was arrested by a swat team after a standoff he didn't even know was going on after a night of drinking. The girl he was with called the cops on him, saying he was armed because she was fucking crazy. He could have got shot dead right there too. If he didn't get bail, he would have lost his job, home he just bought, and his cat would have died because no one could get inside to feed it. It takes months to process charges.

Fair enough but this can be solved on other ways.


You can make sure police isn't arresting people all over the place. Here you need to be a mob boss or first class terrorist in order to be arrested by a SWAT team. As a matter of fact you need to do something pretty wrong to be arrested in the standard police fashion. Otherwise you will probably just have chat with "someone". On the other hand make sure that processing of charges goes much faster since there is no physical and logical reason for this to be this slow. Also make the law that a person can't be fired over a few days while they are being "processed". Letting suspects walk around because they have money isn't really too smart policy.

 

[Maou]

Fair enough but this can be solved on other ways.


You can make sure police isn't arresting people all over the place. Here you need to be a mob boss or first class terrorist in order to be arrested by a SWAT team. As a matter of fact you need to do something pretty wrong to be arrested in the standard police fashion. Otherwise you will probably just have chat with "someone". On the other hand make sure that processing of charges goes much faster since there is no physical and logical reason for this to be this slow. Also make the law that a person can't be fired over a few days while they are being "processed". Letting suspects walk around because they have money isn't really too smart policy.

I have zero faith in the governments ability to do things efficiently. It won't work, honestly. I don't know if its the same there, but anything the government does here takes fucking forever. Its always burdened with beuacracy bullshit and an overabundance of time consuming regulations. No matter how good the bill would be, someone will get fucked.

Reducing arrests could help, but bail is the most flexible option for innocent people even if actual suspects can walk. Because police is arrest first, ask questions later. Another option would be to allow the suspect to contact, give keys to his friends and family etc. Because usually they are conviscated and the police do not give them to anyone.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I have zero faith in the governments ability to do things efficiently. It won't work, honestly. I don't know if its the same there, but anything the government does here takes fucking forever. Its always burdened with beuacracy bullshit and an overabundance of time consuming regulations. No matter how good the bill would be, someone will get fucked.

Reducing arrests could help, but bail is the most flexible option for innocent people even if actual suspects can walk. Because police is arrest first, ask questions later. Another option would be to allow the suspect to contact, give keys to his friends and family etc. Because usually they are conviscated and the police do not give them to anyone

That sounds reasonable.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Is Camden NJ a model for change in US police forces? Yes and no | News | Al Jazeera



So the lesson here is more police brought crime rates down. Shocker.

Cappelli credits the improvement to new "community-oriented policing," which prizes partnership and problem-solving over violence and punishment.
It starts from an officer's first day: When a new recruit joins the force, they're required to knock on the doors of homes in the neighborhood they're assigned to patrol, he said. They introduce themselves and ask neighbors what needs improving.
Training emphasizes deescalation, he said, and the department's use of force policy makes clear that deadly force is the last option.

Yes, clearly this had no effect.

I knew of Camden's reputation in Philly. I'm glad to hear things are improving, and apparently all it took was defunding the police.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Im not entirely on board for abolishing Bail, because sometimes innocent people get locked up. Then can't save anything they own if they are in more than a week.. This happened to my Lebanese friend who was arrested by a swat team after a standoff he didn't even know was going on after a night of drinking. The girl he was with called the cops on him, saying he was armed because she was fucking crazy. He could have got shot dead right there too. If he didn't get bail, he would have lost his job, home he just bought, and his cat would have died because no one could get inside to feed it. It takes months to process charges.

I think the idea behind abolishing cash bail means that there isn't a fee for bail. This isn't the same as getting rid of bail.

Is that correct, [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION]?

 

[ceecee]

I think the idea behind abolishing cash bail means that there isn't a fee for bail. This isn't the same as getting rid of bail.

Is that correct, @ceecee?

Correct. Poor people already are more likely to end up in the criminal justice system, I experienced this myself several years ago. While it serves as a means of ensuring defendants appear for trial, bail can further penalize poverty. Basically criminalizing poverty. Bail bondsman are also becoming an out sized lobbyist force in several states - we don't need more of that in the US either. A federal judge also ruled there is no constitutional right to cash bail, allowing New Jersey to continue prioritizing other kinds of incentives for showing up to court.

 

[Maou]

I think the idea behind abolishing cash bail means that there isn't a fee for bail. This isn't the same as getting rid of bail.

Is that correct, [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION]?

Ah in that case, sure.