[SJ] A theory about SJs and mistyping

[Zeego]

So I had a thought about SJs earlier today. If I'm not the first person to think of this, let me know.

Most SJs aren't focused the general idea of "the past" so much as their own subjective experience of life so far, things that they personally are familiar with. For example, this is why even the stereotypically SJ religious-right isn't calling for, say, a revival of Hammurabi's Code: they weren't alive when Hammurabi's Code was in effect.

Consequently, most SJs of the younger generation behave differently from how SJs of older generations behave. These younger SJs are coming of age in a time when civil rights and equality are major issues, and the "SJ-ish" values of the past are being put under scrutiny by the media and the masses alike. They don't believe in upholding the conservative values of their parents because they conflict with the progressive values of their peers. Ironically, these progressive values are what they will harken back to in the future, as their parents have done with their own values.

For this reason, the new wave of SJs probably won't identify with Guardian descriptions on Keirsey/MBTI tests, which is why they so frequently mistype as NJs. They don't wan't to uphold traditions or preserve the past because that's what "old people" do, and they're still young. What they will later think of as the past is currently the present.

 

[Hiraeth]

Hmm, I've seen this reasoning discussed somewhere before too. I agree that the whole SJ '1950s conservative traditionalist' stereotype is completely outdated. Most of the youth today are considerably liberal socially and economically. The Si temperament in the future would be more aligned with our current liberal demographic's outlook. So in other words, you're correct in that Si's values would correlate to whichever era the SJ grew up in.

I can also see the possibility that many people are mistyped as intuitives, since Keirsey's descriptions of SJs are usually depicted as old school traditionalists and NJs are the ones most likely to break barriers. Many people come to typology to find themselves and perhaps utilize it as a tool in order to understand others as well. When they see the various descriptions of intuitives epitomized as being innovative, having a great ability to comprehend abstractions, and are often misunderstood since there's much less of them, it clicks in people's minds that they, too, must be an N because of the more flattering way intuitives are generally described in comparison to the more simplistic descriptions often used for sensors. Thus, some actual SJs would end up mistyping because of them not identifying with Keirsey's descriptions. I think that some of the stereotypes for each type need to be thrown in the waste basket so that fewer people are prone to mistyping.

 

[Kanra Jest]

This would explain a lot and based off what I've observed I agree.

An ISTJ acting friend I know who scores IxTJ often back and forth on text between N and S largely because despite having strong unshakable values and everything, he doesn't have traditional thinking much like the old SJ's (like men and woman roles, religious things, and a bunch of these issues we have today on what's ok and what's not being so unclear). My own Father would be an example of an older SJ type as an ESTJ who very frequently harkens back to his experience and traditional(what he's been taught, also religious "knowledge", "wisdom", avoid any risks) to have me learn and take it all in as well. Which I haven't fully because I just want to think for myself.

But given what I've seen, it would be a fine example of the difference as my friend is in his 20's and my father is in his 50's by now. But do to this confusion is S and N my friend often ends up claiming himself as a hybrid IxTJ but I know how easily he can sway to INTJ because of the superior seeming mastermind description.

 

[Galaxy Gazer]

I had the exact same thought and was about to start my own thread when I saw this.

If I am an ISFJ, then this is mostly true for me. I grew up in the age of the LGBT movement (ohh, the Day of Silence flashbacks), women's empowerment, and secularism becoming a popular thing. As a result, I'm sort of stuck in a transition period between extreme religious conservatism and SJW liberalism: I can't stand either one. Just as SJs of the previous generation find racism horrible, younger SJs feel that traditional marriage, traditional gender roles, etc. to be outdated and discriminatory. But we also see the world continuing to change before our eyes with things like modern feminism, BLM, political correctness, etc. and it's difficult for us to accept. The worst part for me is seeing nation-wide acceptance of religious values that are practically identical to the ultra-conservative values I chose to reject because I felt that they were bigoted and hateful. It's like the past and the future are fusing, creating the ultimate SJ nightmare. *shudders*

 

[Dreamer]

I don't like the word "traditions" regarding Si, though, in some ways, that CAN be seen as accurate as well. The distinction I see though, is that these should be seen as personal, subjective traditions. Not upholding some societal tradition as... traditionally defined haha. I can stand to be corrected by a proper SJ, but to me, upholding traditions really is more about going through the motions, in a physical sense, that bring about a sense of being, relating to memory, a feeling, a nice place to be, for that person. Joining around the Christmas tree and decorating it with the whole family as one example. There is nothing meaningful in carrying out this tradition objectively. You can hire someone to decorate a Christmas tree, you can have some kid do it, but for some reason, it's important for say, this hypothetical SJ to involve the whole family in on this. That reason is also a subjective reason, and say, ties into positive feelings of togetherness, of seeing everyone together and laughing, bonding, etc. To bring about this positive experience, the SJ will rely on these displays, these "traditions", to return to this positive place. Tradition shouldn't be looked at regarding societal traditions, they can, but the distinction is in discovering, what, about that particular tradition, is the SJ gaining from such display. There are always many ways to bring about the same experience, the same feeling, but to the SJ, regaining that feeling is best understood by repeating certain behaviors since it's learned. A conditioned response so to speak.

 

[Lord Lavender]

Again not a SJ type but with Si as my tert function i can relate to many SJ traits. Many of my values and decisions are based on past experience and it can be difficult for me to embrace change as I like stability in my world view. Si is a function that is possibly the most misunderstood. It isn't the group think tradition function that many think it is. Si is a perceiving function not a judging function which means it is taking in information not placing judgements on information which tradition stems from. I would say going by how the functions work that tradition is a combo of Si and a feeling function (Si-Fe or Si-Fi) not pure Si.

On a tangent i would say that being stuck in the past is something that NP types under stress experience. When I am under stress i get comfort from routine and familiarity while the SJs i know tend to go unhealthy Ne and become reckless and impulsive seeking out change when it isn't needed.

 

[Zeego]

Again not a SJ type but with Si as my tert function i can relate to many SJ traits. Many of my values and decisions are based on past experience and it can be difficult for me to embrace change as I like stability in my world view.

Interesting. For some reason, I've generally had the opposite experience with my tert Si. I find it very uncomfortable to use (sometimes even more than Fe, oddly enough) and I often try to resist it when it becomes active. I have considered the possibility that I'm ENTP, but I am very introverted, and I feel like Se PoLR makes more sense than Fi PoLR for me.

 

[Lord Lavender]

Interesting. For some reason, I've generally had the opposite experience with my tert Si. I find it very uncomfortable to use (sometimes even more than Fe, oddly enough) and I often try to resist it when it becomes active. I have considered the possibility that I'm ENTP, but I am very introverted, and I feel like Se PoLR makes more sense than Fi PoLR for me.

For me myself I didn't explain it correctly. I seem to have a love-hate relationship with Si things. For example I have told people off for being stuck in the past and refusing to see new possibilities and yet I do find past experience to be useful. I have considered ISFJ as I seem to use quite a lot of Fe and Si but I don't relate to inferior Ne so I am still not that sure of my type.

 

[Yama]

Yes 100%. I have discussed this in many of my threads on Si as well.

 

[Zeego]

Maybe descriptions of Guardians would resonate more with today's SJs if they focused less on "conservatism" and more on "responsibility" in general.

 

[Haven]

Things went downhill ever since we forgot about Hammurabi. Most traditions around today were invented by baby boomers, and they don't resonate with me at all. I wonder how much of what people demand today come from movements 10, 20, or 50 years ago.

 

[Zeego]

Things went downhill ever since we forgot about Hammurabi.

I take back my initial statement.

 

[ceecee]

Most SJs aren't focused the general idea of "the past" so much as their own subjective experience of life so far, things that they personally are familiar with.

I agree with this completely. Even for younger SJ's it's accurate but it's not as absolute as it is for older SJ's (Baby boomers in particular, my father is an ESTJ and a BB and he can be excruciating.) Their favorite phrase is - Don't patronize me - anytime someone tries to tell them something new. The younger ones, I don't find the same closed mind issues.

 

[EJCC]

I basically agree with the OP, though it makes some generalizations.

I don't look like a typical SJ because the "traditions" I follow are those of my untraditional parents: peacenik activist wannabe-hippies who live in a hippie town. I grew up going to anti-war candlelight vigils and listening to Grateful Dead live albums on car trips.

I don't follow a lot of those traditions anymore, but needless to say, 1950s-esque SJ stereotypes don't mesh well with what I described above.

My other caveat is that I think your OP describes why people might mistype SJs as other types, but it doesn't describe why SJs mistype themselves. Every mistyped SJ I know, mistyped themselves because they thought SJ descriptions sounded stupid, and lacking in critical thinking.

 

[Lord Lavender]

I agree with this completely. Even for younger SJ's it's accurate but it's not as absolute as it is for older SJ's (Baby boomers in particular, my father is an ESTJ and a BB and he can be excruciating.) Their favorite phrase is - Don't patronize me - anytime someone tries to tell them something new. The younger ones, I don't find the same closed mind issues.

I have always thought that older SJs would be more open minded and happy to take in new ideas due to having the chance to work on their Ne function. I also think that the SJ descriptions mostly go for the ISxJ types as they have Si in dom as opposed to ESxJ with Ne high up and a weaker Si.

 

[Zeego]

I also think that the SJ descriptions mostly go for the ISxJ types as they have Si in dom as opposed to ESxJ with Ne high up and a weaker Si.

Oddly enough, my experience with SJs has mostly been the opposite, for some reason. Maybe it's because ESxJs have Ni PoLR and ISxJs have it as their role function?

 

[Lord Lavender]

Oddly enough, my experience with SJs has mostly been the opposite, for some reason. Maybe it's because ESxJs have Ni PoLR and ISxJs have it as their role function?

Another theory would be a higher Fi or Ti function which means they are more likely to assess their Si information (ISFJs would logically see if the Si frame work makes logical sense and likewise ISTJs would see if it made moral sense). Interesting about how PoLR and role functions work as IxTPs tend to have more sensitivity to others (Role Fi) while i have a complete lack of Fi (Fi PoLR).

 

[Zeego]

In some ways I like Socionics' definition of Si better because they emphasize the more aesthetic and individualistic aspect of it instead of making it seem ultra-conformist like MBTI does.

 

[Smilephantomhive]

My other caveat is that I think your OP describes why people might mistype SJs as other types, but it doesn't describe why SJs mistype themselves. Every mistyped SJ I know, mistyped themselves because they thought SJ descriptions sounded stupid, and lacking in critical thinking.

It wasn't so much the descriptions, but other people believing that SJs were basically sheep. I personally think it is IPs misunderstanding Je being their inferior function and all.

 

[Yama]

In some ways I like Socionics' definition of Si better because they emphasize the more aesthetic and individualistic aspect of it instead of making it seem ultra-conformist like MBTI does.

Funnily enough, I'm not a fan of the socionics' take on Si at all because it's so... physical/literal. I have attributed that to me being sp-last, though. MBTI Si fits me great, when explained properly, which no description I have ever read is able to do.