for those against abortion

[Not_Me]

A baby is of pure innocence. This is why it is seen as such cute thing.

It is also possible to post the same baby picture and say "Here's the reason why 13 year old girls should have sex with 25 year old men."

 

[Oaky]

I would also argue that it's pure evil; absolute greed incarnate with zero consideration for anyone but themselves.

The only reason they're "innocent" is they don't know any better. If someone acted like that as an adult they'd be locked in jail, or murdered for being such a pretentious jerk.

As yeu said before though, I have virtually no affection. There's alot of reasons for it, but the heavy bias against the F mindset to a point of nearly being warlike against it is probably the biggest cause XD

From a logical perspective, babies really don't have many, if any, redeeming traits, other than false imagery such as the perception of innocence, or the inherent implication of immortality by proxy via gene transference.

But most people don't like to talk about logic in relation to an emotional topic, so I kinda realize I'm not exactly on common ground here XD

And so you are.

 

[Haphazard]

Why don't we do this the capitalist way.

People respond to incentives. Give more incentives and benefits to people who have children.

 

[Oaky]

It is also possible to post the same baby picture and say "Here's the reason why 13 year old girls should have sex with 25 year old men."

I'll quote something I've said before.

When it would come to these awfully horrible situations there may be set ideals depending on the person. It would be the person themselves that would decide what they should do. Any action could be right.

 

[Not_Me]

1) For those who don't believe in forcing their beliefs on others, why then are citizen's tax dollars used to perform abortions?

That would set the precedent for all sorts of social programs to opt out of.

 

[Ivy]

Yeah. I don't get to choose to opt out of my tax dollars supporting the military because I'm a Quaker. But nobody can force me to join the military against my will; nor would I try to force others not to join the military.

 

[Take Five]

Why don't we do this the capitalist way.

People respond to incentives. Give more incentives and benefits to people who have children.

The problem isn't convincing people to want to have children per se. It is more of an issue of getting people to accept responsibility for their situation, and setting up social safety nets for the cases in which people are unable (or unwilling) to take responsibility.

Convenience is not an admissible excuse for murder. That being said, I'm all for support programs that facilitate successful pregnancies in order to save lives by preventing abortions. It seems to me that every argument in favor of abortion is based around convenience. "It's not fair! Boo-hoo!" Deal with it.

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah. I don't get to choose to opt out of my tax dollars supporting the military because I'm a Quaker. But nobody can force me to join the military against my will; nor would I try to force others not to join the military.

It is generally agreed (even by pacifists) that a military is necessary. Pacifists do not want to personally be involved in murder. However, in the past, they have joined the military in non-combative capacities or worked in areas that supported national efforts. It is a matter of conscience.

It would be a very rare case where an abortion is necessary to save someone's life. It is not a healthcare procedure. I am being forced to support other people's poor decision making with my tax dollars and therefore I am participating in what I believe to be murder. This too is a matter of conscience. Abortion is not a "social program".

 

[Haphazard]

I am being forced to support other people's poor decision

What about welfare?

 

[Haphazard]

The problem isn't convincing people to want to have children per se. It is more of an issue of getting people to accept responsibility for their situation, and setting up social safety nets for the cases in which people are unable (or unwilling) to take responsibility.

Convenience is not an admissible excuse for murder. That being said, I'm all for support programs that facilitate successful pregnancies in order to save lives by preventing abortions. It seems to me that every argument in favor of abortion is based around convenience. "It's not fair! Boo-hoo!" Deal with it.

Greed is a greater motivator than fear. If you really want to get to the root of the problem you've got to motivate people by the benefits of having children rather than the current system which punishes it. It doesn't really matter if it's legal or not; I mean, women will still be trying abortions by the coathanger method and killing themselves if we get rid of it on the grounds that it's murder.

 

[Ivy]

It is generally agreed (even by pacifists) that a military is necessary. Pacifists do not want to personally be involved in murder. However, in the past, they have joined the military in non-combative capacities or worked in areas that supported national efforts. It is a matter of conscience.

It would be a very rare case where an abortion is necessary to save someone's life. It is not a healthcare procedure. I am being forced to support other people's poor decision making with my tax dollars and therefore I am participating in what I believe to be murder. This too is a matter of conscience. Abortion is not a "social program".

Again, I'm being forced to support what I believe to be murder when my tax dollars pay for the Iraq war. I'm not allowed to opt out of this, either.

 

[Haphazard]

Again, I'm being forced to support what I believe to be murder when my tax dollars pay for the Iraq war. I'm not allowed to opt out of this, either.

this sort of argument is also good for people who don't support the death penalty.

 

[kyuuei]

The problem isn't convincing people to want to have children per se. It is more of an issue of getting people to accept responsibility for their situation, and setting up social safety nets for the cases in which people are unable (or unwilling) to take responsibility.

Convenience is not an admissible excuse for murder. That being said, I'm all for support programs that facilitate successful pregnancies in order to save lives by preventing abortions. It seems to me that every argument in favor of abortion is based around convenience. "It's not fair! Boo-hoo!" Deal with it.

Remembering that pregnancies don't always happen in a "It's not fair boo-hoo" situation would be strongly recommended to you. Yes, a lot of abortions stem from pro-choice people making wrong choices and not wanting to deal with consequences.

But are you really ready to remove the rights of a woman aborting a child to potentially save her own life? Or the woman that was raped and carries that baby? Or the child that had daddy force himself onto her for years while she was still innocent?

More importantly, are you ready to remove any of those women's right to privacy? Yeah, a lot of women have sob stories that amount to nothing. But a woman in a terrible situation like those described above should be able to privately take care of what's happening to her at the cost of abortions due to malicious, immature decisions. I don't care if that's a .1% or 50% statistic. EVERY woman. Has a right to privacy. Which means she should never HAVE to disclose WHY she is getting an abortion. Thus, the facilities should always be available. I don't know why abortion is still an argument at all.

As long as the right to privacy keeps being ruled on, abortions will remain. Even if it doesn't, it will only mean 'privacy' will be taken to the streets, where women will die from shady doctors.

 

[Take Five]

Remembering that pregnancies don't always happen in a "It's not fair boo-hoo" situation would be strongly recommended to you. Yes, a lot of abortions stem from pro-choice people making wrong choices and not wanting to deal with consequences.

But are you really ready to remove the rights of a woman aborting a child to potentially save her own life? Or the woman that was raped and carries that baby? Or the child that had daddy force himself onto her for years while she was still innocent?

More importantly, are you ready to remove any of those women's right to privacy? Yeah, a lot of women have sob stories that amount to nothing. But a woman in a terrible situation like those described above should be able to privately take care of what's happening to her at the cost of abortions due to malicious, immature decisions. I don't care if that's a .1% or 50% statistic. EVERY woman. Has a right to privacy. Which means she should never HAVE to disclose WHY she is getting an abortion. Thus, the facilities should always be available. I don't know why abortion is still an argument at all.

As long as the right to privacy keeps being ruled on, abortions will remain. Even if it doesn't, it will only mean 'privacy' will be taken to the streets, where women will die from shady doctors.

Abortion for convenience is different than doing what is necessary to save a mother's life. In a live or let die scenario, it's acceptable for the mother to live. Healthcare vs abortion.

Rape, even incestual rape, would still be using the grounds of convenience for permitting abortion. Painful though the ordeal may be, the fetus/child/person is not culpable and should not be punished, any more than the rape victim should have been raped. Again, social safety nets in place would benefit.

Privacy? I value privacy as much as anyone, but my neighbor's life is worth more than it, by far. You're using privacy here as a euphemism for discreet termination of life. One could use the excuse of privacy to legitimize murder in any personal relationship.

People are dealt unfair cards sometimes. This is life. The sooner people realize that, the better off we will be. The world isn't roses all the time, but that never gives anyone the excuse to take away another's life, unless society has no other means of defense.

Women will not die from shady doctors as frequently if good social safety nets are in place.

It is beyond me that some people prioritize "privacy" over the life of family members. Screw your privacy! The life is more important, and nobody has the right to take away the innocent's life.

 

[Haphazard]

And here we are, back to the debate between privacy and protection of life.




Fuck this, I'mma go be a lesbian.

 

[kyuuei]

Abortion for convenience is different than doing what is necessary to save a mother's life. In a live or let die scenario, it's acceptable for the mother to live. Healthcare vs abortion.

Rape, even incestual rape, would still be using the grounds of convenience for permitting abortion. Painful though the ordeal may be, the fetus/child/person is not culpable and should not be punished, any more than the rape victim should have been raped. Again, social safety nets in place would benefit.

Privacy? I value privacy as much as anyone, but my neighbor's life is worth more than it, by far. You're using privacy here as a euphemism for discreet termination of life. One could use the excuse of privacy to legitimize murder in any personal relationship.

People are dealt unfair cards sometimes. This is life. The sooner people realize that, the better off we will be. The world isn't roses all the time, but that never gives anyone the excuse to take away another's life, unless society has no other means of defense.

Women will not die from shady doctors as frequently if good social safety nets are in place.

It is beyond me that some people prioritize "privacy" over the life of family members. Screw your privacy! The life is more important, and nobody has the right to take away the innocent's life.

So a woman not only has to find out that she MUST kill a child to save her own life, but she needs to make it public as some sort of pathetic excuse to justify her decision? It could just as easily be said that the child shouldn't be punished just because the mother was dealt 'shitty cards in life' and can't handle the pregnancy. Where do you draw the line in saying "tough shit" to people? "Oh little Sue, I know you were touched by daddy and got pregnant at 13, but that's just tough titty. You can't punish a zygote just because you're incapable of handling a baby at your age." -- This is exactly what you said just now. I think your argument is more barbaric than anything in mine.

This is all moral debates though. The end result is: Roe vs. Wade decided a woman's right to privacy is maintained through abortion. The end. If you think it should be different, get into the damn court system and try to get it overturned. And good luck with that.

 

[Take Five]

So a woman not only has to find out that she MUST kill a child to save her own life, but she needs to make it public as some sort of pathetic excuse to justify her decision? It could just as easily be said that the child shouldn't be punished just because the mother was dealt 'shitty cards in life' and can't handle the pregnancy. Where do you draw the line in saying "tough shit" to people? "Oh little Sue, I know you were touched by daddy and got pregnant at 13, but that's just tough titty. You can't punish a zygote just because you're incapable of handling a baby at your age." -- This is exactly what you said just now. I think your argument is more barbaric than anything in mine.

This is all moral debates though. The end result is: Roe vs. Wade decided a woman's right to privacy is maintained through abortion. The end. If you think it should be different, get into the damn court system and try to get it overturned. And good luck with that.

Again you're just looking for excuses and using euphemisms to make your position look better and hide the facts.

It's inconvenient? ok abortion
It's embarassing? ok abortion
It's difficult to raise a child? ok abortion
It's hard to handle a baby at your age? ok abortion
It's already legal via Roe v Wade? ok abortion

Your quoted text is not exactly what I said. It's not what I said at all. You made up that quote. You interpret me as saying that because I said something you didn't want to hear.

And it is also apparent that you continue to ignore my endorsement of social programs aimed at facilitating going through with unplanned pregnancies.

I'm sorry that you think it barbaric that I believe in following ethics at all times, and not just when it is convenient to.

 

[kyuuei]

My quote is exactly what you said. "Rape, even incestual rape, would still be using the grounds of convenience for permitting abortion." "The life is more important, and nobody has the right to take away the innocent's life." (this implying that the innocent life of an unborn child supercedes the innocent future taken away from the already existing child) "It's inconvenient? ok abortion It's embarassing? ok abortion It's difficult to raise a child? ok abortion It's hard to handle a baby at your age? ok abortion" (in a sarcastic tone.)

These quotes put together say exactly this: If you're a 13 year old child raped by your father and you get pregnant, Tough fuckin' titty. Your life is no longer innocent and is unimportant in the presence of an unwanted child you never intended on having. And why? Because someone who has never been in your situation says that abortion is wrong, absolutely. That, to me, is a barbaric position, indeed.

I stated my case, and my beliefs. I don't plan or aim to change your mind, and you will not change mine. I'm done with my points. If you continue to engage me with the topic, I'll simply delete my points. They don't amount to anything anyways, just like yours are fruitless. This is a case of morality, where no one is absolutely right to anyone except themselves.

 

[Bubbles]

...
Okay. Wow. This thread got way more savage way too fast. But anyway,

These quotes put together say exactly this: If you're a 13 year old child raped by your father and you get pregnant, Tough fuckin' titty. Your life is no longer innocent and is unimportant in the presence of an unwanted child you never intended on having. And why? Because someone who has never been in your situation says that abortion is wrong, absolutely. That, to me, is a barbaric position, indeed.

Okay. I'm cool with this logic. But where do we draw the line? Seriously. I feel like there's no barrier to an abortion if any woman wants one. Isn't there something wrong with it being used repeatedly as birth control? It happens too muchly for my comfort.

 

[Lateralus]

I totally disagree with this.

I disagree with it too. Babies defecate all over themselves. Disgusting!