• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Roe no mo?

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
22,108
True, as fetus all mammals look pretty similarly. Since from fertilized egg you are developing the creature with 4 limbs, 2 eyes, 2 ears, similar/same organs, chemically identical bones ... etc. So pregnancy problems are a thing for hundreds of million of years at this point and therefore it would be wise to threat them as such.
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
7,705
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
738
It just strikes me that being pro-abortion is the admission than some human lives are lesser than others - and to such a degree that they can be killed to protect someone's lesser rights (liberty, privacy being I think lesser rights than the basic right to life).

So it is very interesting that strongly pro-abortion people are also generally the same people who say all humans and cultures are equal and any inequality is due to some sort of oppression (simplifying/archetyping ofc for the sake brevity).

I find these apparent contradictions (cognitive dissonance) usually lead to a deeper understanding of underlying drives vs what people think drives them.
 
Last edited:

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,501
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
But that means that the other branches of the government potentially can't protect you from that court. What in my understanding isn't the case.
In the strictest sense, no other government entity can protect people from SCOTUS because there is no higher body that can overrule it. The (federal) congress can pass laws in an attempt to undo or compensate for a court ruling, but the court could conceivably declare those laws unconstitutional and strike them down. This is part of the checks-and-balances system.
Well, democracy means that things have to be addressed through talk and diplomacy. However if that fails the majority should have a say, although they should implement the conclusions in most painless way possible way. However here we are coming to the actual problem that is the messy political system in US and mentality that you should always get what you want (in combination with generally poor public education). Therefore all of this is basically the outcome of the two party system since in such system basically the only way how to campaign is to polarize. Plus since it isn't fully clear which level is responsible for what you get a salad as the result every time. What results in mass of people not voting and that leads into even poorer representation than just two parties. What then means that in this case democracy is kinda broken in the start.
The main flaw of democracy majority rule is that it can easily trample on the rights of minorities. A white majority, say, could vote to keep a black or other minority enslaved, as happened for much of our history. Our Constitution tries to address that in part at least through the freedoms it codifies, including freedom of religion. This was meant to allow minority religious groups freedom of worship, and is a legacy of our earliest settlers who were fleeing religious persecution. The anti-choice movement is really an attack on those values, trying to force the religious views of one group on everyone else. I believe it was the late Justice Ginsburg who said that equality under the law would have been a better justification for abortion rights than privacy, though our highest court should be protecting both.

It just strikes me that being pro-abortion is the admission than some human lives are lesser than others - and to such a degree that they can be killed to protect someone's lesser rights (liberty, privacy being I think lesser rights than the basic right to life).

So it is very interesting that strongly pro-abortion people are also generally the same people who say all humans and cultures are equal and any inequality is due to some sort of oppression (simplifying/archetyping ofc for the sake brevity).

I find these apparent contradictions (cognitive dissonance) usually lead to a deeper understanding of underlying drives vs what people think drives them.
As I wrote before, I don't know anyone who is pro=abortion. Most people make that decision as a last resort in a difficult time, and wish there were some other way, sometimes even carrying the child to term (in the case of medical problems). The greater irony is how little regard many in the anti-choice movement have for life other than the unborn. Decisions are made every day that result in loss of life, even innocent life. Often the motive is financial gain, rather than someone's bodily autonomy and perhaps mental and physical health. Distinctions of gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. are much less fundamental than the distinction between viability and non-viability. The argument isn't whether abortion is appropriate in this or that situation. It is whether government should be involved in this sort of medical decision.
 
Last edited:

Jonny

null
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
3,137
MBTI Type
FREE
It just strikes me that being pro-abortion is the admission than some human lives are lesser than others - and to such a degree that they can be killed to protect someone's lesser rights (liberty, privacy being I think lesser rights than the basic right to life).

So it is very interesting that strongly pro-abortion people are also generally the same people who say all humans and cultures are equal and any inequality is due to some sort of oppression (simplifying/archetyping ofc for the sake brevity).

I find these apparent contradictions (cognitive dissonance) usually lead to a deeper understanding of underlying drives vs what people think drives them.
The question is, are these actual contradictions or simply a byproduct of your misunderstanding of their beliefs?

Where exactly do you stand on abortion laws? If you were tasked with writing them, where would you draw the line and why?
 

Kingu Kurimuzon

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Messages
20,940
MBTI Type
I
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
It just strikes me that being pro-abortion is the admission than some human lives are lesser than others - and to such a degree that they can be killed to protect someone's lesser rights (liberty, privacy being I think lesser rights than the basic right to life).

So it is very interesting that strongly pro-abortion people are also generally the same people who say all humans and cultures are equal and any inequality is due to some sort of oppression (simplifying/archetyping ofc for the sake brevity).

I find these apparent contradictions (cognitive dissonance) usually lead to a deeper understanding of underlying drives vs what people think drives them.
Most of the "pro abortion" people I know don't really like the idea but recognize the importance of keeping it as a protected medical procedure.

They are no more guilty of weighing lives than anyone who has ever supported a military action or the death penalty, if you want to get into the weeds on the logic and ethics.
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
7,705
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
738
The question is, are these actual contradictions or simply a byproduct of your misunderstanding of their beliefs?
Yes of course. But what other conclusion can you draw if you push the reasoning to its logical end? Either you say a biological human is not human - ok, where do you then draw the line? and if you draw a line then what makes a fetus different from someone with some genetic abnormality? Or severe mental retardation? or someone on life support? I am not saying all human life is sacro saint but I have a hard time understanding where people draw the lines - and usually, from my many years of on and off discussion, it seems they generally do not think that 'far'.
Where exactly do you stand on abortion laws? If you were tasked with writing them, where would you draw the line and why?
I don't think my own opinions are very relevant here. It would take too long to detail my views and I only have 2-3 min to write this post between my todos. Maybe later.
 
Last edited:

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
7,705
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
738
Most of the "pro abortion" people I know don't really like the idea but recognize the importance of keeping it as a protected medical procedure.
Yes I think that summarizes the views of most (sane & reasoned/able) people.

They are no more guilty of weighing lives than anyone who has ever supported a military action or the death penalty, if you want to get into the weeds on the logic and ethics.
Agreed. Though of course, it's case by case at higher resolution.
 

Kingu Kurimuzon

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Messages
20,940
MBTI Type
I
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Yes I think that summarizes the views of most (sane & reasoned/able) people.


Agreed. Though of course, it's case by case at higher resolution.
yes, agreed, there's no black and white one-size-fits-all solution or answer to any of those potential scenarios.

I personally tend to lean more toward individual rights and liberties over states rights.

Overall, I think a better educated public might be the best solution if we really want to curtail the number of (what are seen to be) excessive abortions. Birthrates do tend to drop in higher educated demographics.
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
16,334
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
yes, agreed, there's no black and white one-size-fits-all solution or answer to any of those potential scenarios.

I personally tend to lean more toward individual rights and liberties over states rights.

Overall, I think a better educated public might be the best solution if we really want to curtail the number of (what are seen to be) excessive abortions. Birthrates do tend to drop in higher educated demographics.
The gutting of funding for sex education by both the GOP and Dems plus the ridiculous views of conservatives that think every kid will learn the correct, sane information at home (to justify gutting said programs), is as much to blame for this current view as anything else. Teens are also having less sex overall (although I've seen some public comments critical of that as well) and with better, more accessible birth control options, the positives will continue.
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
16,334
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9

On the federal level, Republicans have repeatedly introduced a law that would “make it a crime to knowingly transport a minor across a state line to obtain an abortion without satisfying a parental involvement law in the minor’s resident state.” Those parental-involvement laws were crafted as a Roe-era compromise; without those guardrails, anything is possible.

It’s an open question how abortion travel could be restricted, given the porousness of state borders, but Missouri provided a hint when its state health director testified in the fall of 2019 that he’d compiled a spreadsheet of Planned Parenthood patients’ last menstrual periods, purportedly to track whether they had complications. Such detailed tracking of pregnancies has been used in countries like China and Poland to track if women are defying restrictions on whether and when they can be pregnant or not.

Sure, women have nothing to worry about, state's rights, etc.
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
16,334
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Might want to delete your data from any period tracker you may be using.


And this is all legal because the Patriot Act allows surveillance by state and federal entities in this way.

 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
22,108
In the strictest sense, no other government entity can protect people from SCOTUS because there is no higher body that can overrule it. The (federal) congress can pass laws in an attempt to undo or compensate for a court ruling, but the court could conceivably declare those laws unconstitutional and strike them down. This is part of the checks-and-balances system.

Ok, I am from the other side of the world so I am not always familiar with the details. In my case such court is far less powerful and we don't do culture wars of this scale. I believe you but I don't relate. Especially since multiparty system can always create a new party that should address the problem, or at least keep it under control. There is no need for "almighty court". Having so powerful institution is anything but check and balance.



The main flaw of democracy majority rule is that it can easily trample on the rights of minorities. A white majority, say, could vote to keep a black or other minority enslaved, as happened for much of our history. Our Constitution tries to address that in part at least through the freedoms it codifies, including freedom of religion. This was meant to allow minority religious groups freedom of worship, and is a legacy of our earliest settlers who were fleeing religious persecution. The anti-choice movement is really an attack on those values, trying to force the religious views of one group on everyone else. I believe it was the late Justice Ginsburg who said that equality under the law would have been a better justification for abortion rights than privacy, though our highest court should be protecting both.


To tell you the truth I prefer direct democracy as much as possible in general. Since I am much more uncomfortable with the concept that minority will rule the majority. Because as soon as you create too many of the checks and balances, plenty of courts etc. you are basically creating the elite that is protector or x,y,z. While if the general public is powerful in effect and at least somewhat educated that is in general much more likely to get stuff right. As I said in my book USA has very little of actual checks and balances, since you don't have the concept of snap elections that is the real check and balance by the people. You often don't decide elections with popular vote. You don't have multiparty system and have the real rainbow of choice that creates much more precise representation. Nation wide referendums also don't seem to be your thing. Jules even told me that you don't have a socio-economic council, where the executive government, representatives of the business/industry and unions debate in order to remove or smooth problems as much as possible. Therefore with all do respect I am not sure that you know what is actual democracy of majority. Since you as a nation always in all combinations have some kind of guardians that have the holy duty to overrule something. Just so that something might not change by accident. To me is downright surreal and absurd when some random court blocks your executive government. People voted directly and they can request removal of the current administration at any time if the administration is evidently bad and low in polls. Ordinary court should be here just to process corruption and sort out the details at hand, not to do ideology. That is between the administration and the people. This is probably kinda why so many of you like free market so much, since this is kinda the only sphere were you have general sense of freedom.


I am sorry if I am too honest but I can't help myself. You as a nation are basically suffering from a form of "analysis paralysis" since you would rather block everything than risk making a mistake. Even if that blocking will do quite a bit of major mistakes on the long run, especially since that mechanism can be abused as well. This is exactly why I am much more uncomfortable with the rule of minority than majority. Since this constant blocking from above in the end turns to blocking of reality. What is in general both expensive and painful.


Just my 2 cents.
 

Luminous

༻✧✧༺
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
10,196
MBTI Type
Iᑎᖴᑭ
Enneagram
952
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Might want to delete your data from any period tracker you may be using.


And this is all legal because the Patriot Act allows surveillance by state and federal entities in this way.
This just makes me feel so sick.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,068
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Life undeniably begins at conception. But humans have a long history of valuing the lives of some more than others. We raise, slaughter, and eat countless living things. We take antibiotics and antivirals and antiparasitics. We have state-sanctioned killing of born humans, not only in war, but in times of peace via the death penalty. We justify killing in self-defense, or if a "reasonable person" would have killed in the same circumstances. In short, we have a long history of recognizing that ending a life is sometimes justified given the totality of circumstances, even though if viewed in isolation it would be viewed as morally objectionable.

Noam Chomsky has talked about how moral relativism is, in its most extreme form, incoherent. That is, the notion that "what is right or wrong is wholly relative to some cultural framework" is incoherent. He explains that, like the human system of language, our moral system is itself based on a narrow biological framework of meaning. And in his view, with the study of philosophy and innovations in technology, we humans have been on a slow march toward discovering our collective, biologically objective morality. Utilizing this line of reasoning, if I imagine a world where we have solved scarcity, where our control over reproduction is at its zenith and we can gestate humans without the need for a human host, I could believe that those people would see abortion as an abhorrent act. If woman laid eggs, and human offspring were self-dependent upon hatching, I could see smashing a fertilized egg as an abhorrent act. From this, it seems to me that the act of abortion, without regard to the totality of circumstances in which it is exercised, is inherently an immoral action.

But...

We do not live in some future free from scarcity. We aren't wholly in control of our reproduction. Women don't lay eggs. Humans don't hatch fully independent, without need for parental support. And so, like many other immoral acts, we must consider abortion against the alternatives. Namely, the consequences of enforcing its ban.

Multitudes of research show that abortion restrictions are not particularly effective at stopping abortions. Rather, they stop relatively safer abortions and increase pregnancy related injury and death via black market "coat hanger" abortions.

While choosing abstinence is near-100% effective at preventing pregnancy (rape being the exception), humans are biologically (and socially) compelled to have sex. And even with contraception there is still a risk of unwanted pregnancy. By denying a woman the right to choose to control whether she has children, we are subjugating her to function as a host for a developing fetus, exposing her to risk of injury or death and other life-altering consequences.

It's easy for someone who has never and perhaps can never face the dilemma to say that unwanted pregnancy is simply the consequences of a woman's choices. But that denies the reality of the human desire to have sex. It also ignores the fact that women actually do posses the means to terminate unwanted pregnancies, and it is only by artificial restriction on choice that women would face any unavoidable consequences.

If, as some have said, this should be a matter for individual states, then any sort of ban would essentially function as a price hike on abortions. Those who could afford to travel to a state permitting them would do so. Any attempt to enforce such laws across state lines (and thus produce anything more than a de facto price hike) would require relatively extreme state involvement in people's private lives. It could also further erode relations between states with disparate views.

At the end of the day, though, we are still a country of laws. And, right or wrong, those laws are viewed through the prism of the constitution as interpreted by SCOTUS. If SCOTUS does indeed overturn Roe, then it is reasonable to expect that some states will outlaw abortion. It is then up to those of us who support a woman's right to choose to elect representatives who are supportive of a right to choose. We could also work to fund charities aimed at reimbursing women for travel expenses and income lost as a result of crossing state lines to have abortions. We could become more active in state politics and fight for more reasonable restrictions on abortions, e.g. at least allowing the abortion pill, which terminates a pregnancy in 98% of cases up to 11 weeks, or allowing abortions after counseling and up to the end of the first trimester.

We cannot function as a society and tackle the many problems we face in the modern world if we are constantly at each other's throats. We must exercise empathy and understanding, and we must encourage others to do so as well, indirectly or directly. I am fairly confident that, given the right set of life circumstances, nearly every person who currently supports outlawing abortion could find themselves deciding to have an abortion. They are simply fortunate enough to have lived a life where they were never met with circumstances so dire that they needed to. And that's the crux of the issue. They recognize that ending a life is bad, and cannot understand the circumstances that could justify that bad action because they've never been in those circumstances, and have maybe even been conditioned to not entertain their possibility. But through honest dialogue, based in empathy and understanding, I think we can change minds and find a compromise.

This whole post feels like a Star Trek Next Generation episode.

'Totality of circumstances' is an awfully big phrase.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,501
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Ok, I am from the other side of the world so I am not always familiar with the details. In my case such court is far less powerful and we don't do culture wars of this scale. I believe you but I don't relate. Especially since multiparty system can always create a new party that should address the problem, or at least keep it under control. There is no need for "almighty court". Having so powerful institution is anything but check and balance.






To tell you the truth I prefer direct democracy as much as possible in general. Since I am much more uncomfortable with the concept that minority will rule the majority. Because as soon as you create too many of the checks and balances, plenty of courts etc. you are basically creating the elite that is protector or x,y,z. While if the general public is powerful in effect and at least somewhat educated that is in general much more likely to get stuff right. As I said in my book USA has very little of actual checks and balances, since you don't have the concept of snap elections that is the real check and balance by the people. You often don't decide elections with popular vote. You don't have multiparty system and have the real rainbow of choice that creates much more precise representation. Nation wide referendums also don't seem to be your thing. Jules even told me that you don't have a socio-economic council, where the executive government, representatives of the business/industry and unions debate in order to remove or smooth problems as much as possible. Therefore with all do respect I am not sure that you know what is actual democracy of majority. Since you as a nation always in all combinations have some kind of guardians that have the holy duty to overrule something. Just so that something might not change by accident. To me is downright surreal and absurd when some random court blocks your executive government. People voted directly and they can request removal of the current administration at any time if the administration is evidently bad and low in polls. Ordinary court should be here just to process corruption and sort out the details at hand, not to do ideology. That is between the administration and the people. This is probably kinda why so many of you like free market so much, since this is kinda the only sphere were you have general sense of freedom.


I am sorry if I am too honest but I can't help myself. You as a nation are basically suffering from a form of "analysis paralysis" since you would rather block everything than risk making a mistake. Even if that blocking will do quite a bit of major mistakes on the long run, especially since that mechanism can be abused as well. This is exactly why I am much more uncomfortable with the rule of minority than majority. Since this constant blocking from above in the end turns to blocking of reality. What is in general both expensive and painful.


Just my 2 cents.
I do agree about direct election vs. our idiotic electoral college. At least that applies only to the presidential election, but it should go altogether. We would also do better with a parliamentary system, in which the head of state is separate from the head of government, and multiple parties have to compromise to reach a majority for legislation to pass. That would indeed safeguard minority rights at least to some degree. Other smaller reforms would help, like holding elections on a Sunday or making the existing day a national holiday so most people do not have to work.

None of this, however, would prevent a majority from limiting the rights of a minority, as I explained above. A main purpose of our SCOTUS, which really should be thought of as a constitutional court, is to make sure laws passed are aligned with our Constitution. That document expressly protects many basic rights for everyone, whether in the majority or a minority group. That is why the role of the court is so important, and how it is supposed to function as a check on the legislative and executive branches. The fact that the court has become politicised in recent years does not mean it isn't a good idea, with a necessary function to perform. It just means it hasn't been doing the best job because its mandate has been compromised.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,068
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
The main flaw of democracy majority rule is that it can easily trample on the rights of minorities. A white majority, say, could vote to keep a black or other minority enslaved, as happened for much of our history. Our Constitution tries to address that in part at least through the freedoms it codifies, including freedom of religion. This was meant to allow minority religious groups freedom of worship, and is a legacy of our earliest settlers who were fleeing religious persecution. The anti-choice movement is really an attack on those values, trying to force the religious views of one group on everyone else. I believe it was the late Justice Ginsburg who said that equality under the law would have been a better justification for abortion rights than privacy, though our highest court should be protecting both.

There are likely precise terms that I'm unfamiliar with for how I'd want to distinguish the difference between imposing conviction of a minority onto the majority vs protecting a minority from majority rule (e.g. allowing gay marriage in an environment where a majority doesn't want it to happen). And people are wont to conflate the two when they feel threatened. But I'm struggling to adequately articulate a distinction.

I'll definitely concede such a distinction is missing from my previous post about prioritizing democracy (using majority/minority).
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,501
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
There are likely precise terms that I'm unfamiliar with for how I'd want to distinguish the difference between imposing conviction of a minority onto the majority vs protecting a minority from majority rule (e.g. allowing gay marriage in an environment where a majority doesn't want it to happen). And people are wont to conflate the two when they feel threatened. But I'm struggling to adequately articulate a distinction.

I'll definitely concede such a distinction is missing from my previous post about prioritizing democracy (using majority/minority).
The way to prevent both scenarios - majority oppressing minorities, and a minority gaining the upper hand over everyone - is to lay out a comprehensive list of fundamental rights that cannot be denied to anyone, regardless of which group(s) they belong to. Our Constitution does a pretty good job of this, especially as amended, surprising when one recalls that it was written at a time when women, blacks, and many other groups were excluded, implicitly if not explicitly. Constitutions aren't worth the paper they are written on, though, unless they are enforced. The world contains nations with admirable constitutions that are roundly ignored, doing no good for anyone except those who try to hide behind them as a sign of virtue. Debate often centers around the intent of the framers. On the one hand, their intent did not include women, blacks, etc. More broadly, however, their clear intent was to secure fundamental rights against any encroachment, especially by government, as they had experienced this first hand for years as British colonists. If the court operated from this principle, modified to include everyone as subsequent legislation has codified, they would rule very differently in many cases than they have.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
52,151
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
At the end of the day, though, we are still a country of laws. And, right or wrong, those laws are viewed through the prism of the constitution as interpreted by SCOTUS. If SCOTUS does indeed overturn Roe, then it is reasonable to expect that some states will outlaw abortion. It is then up to those of us who support a woman's right to choose to elect representatives who are supportive of a right to choose. We could also work to fund charities aimed at reimbursing women for travel expenses and income lost as a result of crossing state lines to have abortions. We could become more active in state politics and fight for more reasonable restrictions on abortions, e.g. at least allowing the abortion pill, which terminates a pregnancy in 98% of cases up to 11 weeks, or allowing abortions after counseling and up to the end of the first trimester.

Frankly, some of this is also tempered by the situation people find themselves in. There is only so much money and energy and time in the pie for most people, so people will prioritize the things they feel most necessary for day to day survival. Some things are easier to do than others, but basically here is where the affluent win out yet again because their commodities include money and time. Get someone working two jobs just to pay rent and raising kids and skimming by without money for medical expenses, and see how much time they have to invest in "changing the system" when their efforts feel negligible; no, what happens is that they basically just wing it and deal with it if it suddenly becomes a priority (i.e., they find themselves pregnant). Yet sadly they are probably the people most likely in need of these kinds of rights because others with more affluence are able to skirt by with their resources.

Basically this isn't a high-concept situation where ideally if you dislike a law, you can devote unlimited resources towards fixing it without suffering elsewhere. (It's kind of the problem with the "if you hate the system just get out there and vote" admonition -- which obviously is something one should be doing, but it's not nearly so simply esp in light of voter suppression techniques and the larger sacrifice some have to make in order to just cast their single vote.)

People invest their resources into whatever is troubling them directly at the moment at best.

(Frankly people are also either willfully or blindingly stupid about situations they have not personally experienced. Once it happens to them, then suddenly they are motivated because they can empathize.)
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
22,108
I do agree about direct election vs. our idiotic electoral college. At least that applies only to the presidential election, but it should go altogether. We would also do better with a parliamentary system, in which the head of state is separate from the head of government, and multiple parties have to compromise to reach a majority for legislation to pass. That would indeed safeguard minority rights at least to some degree. Other smaller reforms would help, like holding elections on a Sunday or making the existing day a national holiday so most people do not have to work.

None of this, however, would prevent a majority from limiting the rights of a minority, as I explained above. A main purpose of our SCOTUS, which really should be thought of as a constitutional court, is to make sure laws passed are aligned with our Constitution. That document expressly protects many basic rights for everyone, whether in the majority or a minority group. That is why the role of the court is so important, and how it is supposed to function as a check on the legislative and executive branches. The fact that the court has become politicised in recent years does not mean it isn't a good idea, with a necessary function to perform. It just means it hasn't been doing the best job because its mandate has been compromised.


And I am telling you that your solution ends with the court that can brake the rights of a majority. Especially since that is now evidently the case (and in some cases it evidently broke the ones of minorities in the past). This is exactly why I said over and over that genuine education is foundation of everything (and then add every mechanism that I named). Because if people can sum 3 and 3 you don't have to micromanage them like a bunch of idiots (and probably fail at that). What means that in this case you live with less of stereotypical bureaucracy and absurd mistakes. Plus if you give people healthcare as human right and a few key social programs they will become less hateful. You as a nation are constantly into micromanaging stuff without backup and therefore you are all chocked and stressed. So in my opinion your propositions will never truly turn this around. You have to solve this by starting from some other angle. You can have the court but that isn't really the top component in fixing this.


After all if people aren't on the level a single court can't fix that, as a matter of fact there are decent odds that they will simply twist it. Since fundamentally this is just a tool that can chop both ways. So in my subjective opinion that institution is too powerful and people can hardly effect it (it can go completely unchanged for many years). As I said I have similar court but it isn't that powerful and multiparty system places more weight on a dialogue rather than decree. Plus I am not sure that yours has become political recently, that institution is deeply political by it's very nature. What is because searching for moral highground is deeply within your culture. What is fundamentally ok but when it becomes cartoonish it becomes counter productive. Since that path leads into micro-management and loop of frustration. And at that point you probably start to lose contact with idea that perhaps your methodology is either wrong or incomplete.
 
Top