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Trump vs. Biden

Maou

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And then there are 26 sexual harassment charges filed against Trump for the exact kinds of behaviors he bragged about doing. That goes beyond locker room talk. It is admitting to actions. It is so bizarre that anyone can try to make it into some kind of imaginary banter.

In the exit polls Trump was favored by white women college graduates. It is beyond bizarre, except I think maybe his Barbie Doll focus creates a sense of identity because white women have long been propagandized to feel they should look like a Barbie Doll. He is the Barbie Doll president. I am completely ashamed of every woman who voted for him in this election.

You are judging them by their apperances and not their merits. Just accept educated people like Trump too, instead of coming up with prejudiced excuses as to why.
 

Red Memories

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And then there are 26 sexual harassment charges filed against Trump for the exact kinds of behaviors he bragged about doing. That goes beyond locker room talk. It is admitting to actions. It is so bizarre that anyone can try to make it into some kind of imaginary banter.

In the exit polls Trump was favored by white women college graduates. It is beyond bizarre, except I think maybe his Barbie Doll focus creates a sense of identity because white women have long been propagandized to feel they should look like a Barbie Doll. He is the Barbie Doll president. I am completely ashamed of every woman who voted for him in this election.

I wonder how many of these women feel like my mother does though? For one, I can't say I am "ashamed" of her because this is the first time she's voted in Idaho. She usually avoids registering to vote or voting on politics at all.

She does not like Trump. She does not like the way he uses God as a prop or the way he talks about women or disabled people for that matter. But she isn't really voting "for" Trump, she is voting against was she perceives as people attempting to take away her freedom of religion and thought. She feels these keyboard warriors are trying to bully the world into submission and so she feels like her vote for Trump is a rebellion against their abuses.

This is where that shut down mentality can actually turn off genuine people. My mom went from saying she would've voted for Clinton to voting Trump this election. The coverage is actually making people angry...
 

Red Herring

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So when the Biden 100 day lcokdown magically cures Covid-19, I don't want to hear people bitching they can't get jobs or pay their bills. Remember, Republicans held the senate. Biden's first two years will be crippled. Then if Biden pulls a fascist, he will make masks and enforcement federal. The states will have zero say against it unless the states sue. In which the Supreme court will rule in the states favor. But Biden doesn't have to worry, because he'll have amazingly positive Covid media coverage regardless of what he actually does.

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying nationwide mask mandates are fascist? ...because we have them all over Europe and many, many other parts of the world. Or do you mean passing laws or presidential orders that apply to a whole country is fascist?

France has a very centralist government where everything is ruled from Paris, I wouldn't call it a fascist country though.
 

Totenkindly

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It's pretty sad when possibly enforcing a mask-rule mandate during an uncontrolled pandemic is thought of as "fascism."
 

Maou

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I'm a bit confused. Are you saying nationwide mask mandates are fascist? ...because we have them all over Europe and many, many other parts of the world. Or do you mean passing laws or presidential orders that apply to a whole country is fascist?

France has a very centralist government where everything is ruled from Paris, I wouldn't call it a fascist country though.

Yes, because the fed isnt suppose to impose on states. Because states are like their own individual countries, with elected representatives to do as the people wish within those states. So the fed trying to force the states to do what it want negates each state's rights to manage themselves, and negating what the people voted for. Thus being authoritarian and fascist.

Dont compare us to europe, totally different system.
 

Red Herring

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Yes, because the fed isnt suppose to impose on states. Because states are like their own individual countries, with elected representatives to do as the people wish within those states. So the fed trying to force the states to do what it want negates each state's rights to manage themselves, and negating what the people voted for. Thus being authoritarian and fascist.

Dont compare us to europe, totally different system.

Well, we can agree on 1) Europe (and many other places) being very different and 2) us having very different understanding of what fascism is.
 

Red Memories

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I think I would like a well-made national mandate because I think it will clear up some of the issues where some stores enforce, some don't, etc. and there would be better guidelines for what is and is not an exception. I think it would be nice to clarify what qualifies and perhaps a nationwide thing could help those who want to wear one but struggle to afford one? I think it may benefit those who have disabilities in the long run too because perhaps it will be seen less like we are trying to kill you and more of the reality that our mental state doesn't really make it feasible to follow it to a T. On a scary note, I fear he won't make any exceptions which will put people like me in a difficult limbo of being unable to help my at risk family because I have severe anxiety over constrictions on my face.
 

FemMecha

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I wonder how many of these women feel like my mother does though? For one, I can't say I am "ashamed" of her because this is the first time she's voted in Idaho. She usually avoids registering to vote or voting on politics at all.

She does not like Trump. She does not like the way he uses God as a prop or the way he talks about women or disabled people for that matter. But she isn't really voting "for" Trump, she is voting against was she perceives as people attempting to take away her freedom of religion and thought. She feels these keyboard warriors are trying to bully the world into submission and so she feels like her vote for Trump is a rebellion against their abuses.

This is where that shut down mentality can actually turn off genuine people. My mom went from saying she would've voted for Clinton to voting Trump this election. The coverage is actually making people angry...
I can appreciate these complexities. My mother was very manipulated by Fox News before she was institutionalized for dementia. Her political thinking was an expression of her paranoid disorder and tendencies. I adore my mother, feel pity for her, but also some shame for the views she embraced.


I think there are a number of Trump votes that are protest votes against Neo-Liberals who have processed to help marginalized demographics but haven't.


I also think Trump is a confirmed sexual violator, an overt liar, and extreme racist. Evidence goes back throughout his life and career. There is no moral integrity evident. I feel some level of shame for the support he has received even in the context of complex conditions. This doesn't mean I am void of pity or compassion in some instances.
 

RadicalDoubt

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I wonder how many of these women feel like my mother does though? For one, I can't say I am "ashamed" of her because this is the first time she's voted in Idaho. She usually avoids registering to vote or voting on politics at all.

She does not like Trump. She does not like the way he uses God as a prop or the way he talks about women or disabled people for that matter. But she isn't really voting "for" Trump, she is voting against was she perceives as people attempting to take away her freedom of religion and thought. She feels these keyboard warriors are trying to bully the world into submission and so she feels like her vote for Trump is a rebellion against their abuses.

This is where that shut down mentality can actually turn off genuine people. My mom went from saying she would've voted for Clinton to voting Trump this election. The coverage is actually making people angry...
I think this is important to think about, frankly because I think the majority of people this time around aren't voting for someone they like, they're voting against something that they dislike. My mother also voted for trump after being absolutely lost about who to vote for the entirety of the election because she didn't like Harris. It's hard to vote, especially from a conservative edge/republican edge I'd imagine if you dislike much about what the democratic party stands for and what Biden plays to and also don't agree with what Trump stands for despite the knowledge that the only two candidates that stand/stood a chance of winning were these two. Frankly, both men have been called fascists as well, there's so much fear mongering this election that it's tough for me to get as angry as some other people have over voting for one guy over the other (excluding those who clearly have issues with morality, have blindly fallen in love with a candidates image, or are spewing anti-logic/science rhetoric).

Frankly, regardless of who wins, I'm really hoping that people start advocating a bit more for 3rd party candidates. Much of our country has convinced us that if we didn't vote main party, our votes wouldn't count and, due to the the fact that 3rd party candidates aren't really publicly endorsed to the level that main party candidates are, that's become a reality. There's been a lot of discord surrounding presidential candidates in the last 10 years, having people vote for one of two candidates they hate and convincing them there really are only two options is a mistake.
 

Maou

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Well, we can agree on 1) Europe (and many other places) being very different and 2) us having very different understanding of what fascism is.

The problem is precidence. When it becomes a normal tool for the executive branch, our country stops being a Republic. To try to use it on something that doesn't even really help (including the lockdown) is just a powergrab disguised as "help". How is it not fascist to throw the constitution into the trash because "You know better".

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
 

Red Memories

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my grandfather actually pointed out he thinks what hurt Trump, actually, is a notable small shift in votes to Jo Jergensen. Independents did take some of the voting margin away this time. [MENTION=34313]RadicalDoubt[/MENTION] I desperately want a real candidate to vote for. this is my second election and it makes me feel like the country is a joke that these keep ending up our candidates...
 

Red Herring

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The problem is precidence. When it becomes a normal tool for the executive branch, our country stops being a Republic. To try to use it on something that doesn't even really help (including the lockdown) is just a powergrab disguised as "help". How is it not fascist to throw the constitution into the trash because "You know better".

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

A republic can be either centralist or federalist, that has nothing to do with the definition of a republic (namely that it isn't a monarchy). China is a republic. So is North Korea.

Fascist regimes have constitutions. Nazi Germany had a constitution. Free and democratic countrie can decide to trash their old constitution and write a new one. That has nothing to do with fascism. Fascism is an ideology combining nationalism with a strong leader (to simplify a bit, it's also a worldview and value system that is illiberal, worships a twisted verion of masculinity and looks down on anything perceived as weakness)
 

Maou

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A republic can be either centralist or federalist, that has nothing to do with the definition of a republic (namely that it isn't a monarchy). China is a republic. So is North Korea.

Fascist regimes have constitutions. Nazi Germany had a constitution. Free and democratic countrie can decide to trash their old constitution and write a new one. That has nothing to do with fascism. Fascism is an ideology combining nationalism with a strong leader (to simplify a bit, it's also a worldview and value system that is illiberal, worships a twisted verion of masculinity and looks down on anything perceived as weakness)

Are you really insisting labels make a country something, rather than their institutions? You can call a cat a duck, that doesn't make it a duck. North Korea and China are not Republics. China is s technocratic communist state. North Korea is a Necrocracy.

Once again, don't compare USA to other countries. Even if they have a constitution. Being able to throw out a constitution is a BAD thing, because it volitilzes and destabalizes a nation much faster. USA was designed to evolve slow and steady, to prevent knee jerk reactions. To also prevent corruption and political power grabs from happening instantly. Its why America is able to resist a lot of bad. So that one term can't do instant damage/take over, and so that things can't instantly be undone. And thats a good thing.

The constitution of the united states limits what the Federal government can and cannot do. If the Federal government does it anyways, thats a very bad thing. It means they don't respect the consent of the governed. And can then just stop recognizing state governments, and their elected officials. That means its not a Republic anymore.
 

Red Memories

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I would call China and NK more like dictatorships than actual republics....they are only republic by word....
 

Mad Hatter

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Once again, don't compare USA to other countries.

And why not?

The US, like any country, has a specific history that shapes its views, its values and its political system. But it's not so completely unique that its political system can be described within terms that only exist within the US alone. Not everything means the same to everybody, but there is common ground, or we should stop using words altogether.

China is, most certainly, a republic, whether you like it or not or agree with it or not. A republic simply means that power is, in some way, distributed through election as opposed to heredetary. The point is how this election takes place. Certain groups can have a much larger say, e.g. based on wealth, race, sex or any other category you can think of. In a democracy, the idea is that all people should decide, regardless of restrictions What makes the US different from countries like China (and many other republics) is that it is a democratic republic.
It didn't always use to be like that, and I have the strong suspicion that some people would prefer it that way.
Whenever I hear people uttering phrases along the lines of "The US is not a democracy, it is a republic!", I have the strong suspicion that they are uncomfortable with the idea of equality, the principle of one person - one vote, and think that some groups of people should inherently wield more power because they are somehow superior. You know just like - in the good ol'd Roman res publica.
 

Red Herring

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I would call China and NK more like dictatorships than actual republics....they are only republic by word....

The dictionary definition of "republic" is "not a monarchy". A dictatorship can be a republic. You can be a republic without being a democracy (like China) and you can be democracy without being a republic (the UK, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium, ...).


Also, a constitution is a set of rules. Rules can be changed. How are you a free or democratic country if you can't even change your constitution?
Stability is important, but stability is rooted in social coherence, not a piece of paper.
 
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