[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[uumlau]

Guys, maybe we should make a 'Analyze INTJs vs ENTPs'-thread for this..

Heh, perhaps this is the answer to the "Why is INTJforum so boring?" thread: the INTJs there wanted to be sure that the ENTPs would leave their threads alone.

 

[Oaky]

And they dont care if anyone likes them. They dont care if you get mad at them. They dont care what anyone thinks of them.

This is not necessarily the case. We are good at hiding it. You see, Fi plays quite a role as the tertiary function of the INTJ. Why do we have such structure? Why do we try not to humiliate ourselves? We do we have pride? Why do we value honour? This is our Fi. It's a self-satisfaction that others and ourselves see us in our ideal state. Not in any state of wreck. Doing things of honor because of the sake of honor.

My very best ENTP man-a senior VP-let me down recently once I saw how he also bought into the Fe social fabric in trade for Ti logic. But, perhaps key to his success-he surrounds himself with INTJs at the next level down. He has five now and turns them loose on nightmarish problems. It's brutal, yet fascinating.

What? 5 INTJs? Something is quite wrong there. You sure they are all INTJs?

A question-if an ENTP can recreate a social reality based upon Fe, can they create one in which they are isolated and function like an INTJ, becoming independent of the social fabric?

No because Fe requires what is external. It requires a social aspect and lack of social aspect must equal lack of Fe at that particular moment.

 

[Oaky]

I already know it. It exists in the between. Or the not. Or maybe it doesn't exist at all. I at least know these.

Is knowledge powerful? How do you define power?

But 'maybe' is a saying used by those who lack the knowledge.
Knowledge is indeed powerful. Power is that which we have no will to control. And if knowledge controls and cannot be controlled than knowledge is indeed powerful.

 

[Poki]

Not to disavow the possibility that Sim has had some life-changing experience elsewhere, but I would write this "change" down to being confronted (in a non-confrontational way, of course ) by an intelligent INTJ (and in the view of several other N-dom users).

There's an odd connection between INTJs and ENTPs. I kinda knew Sim and I would eventually have this dialogue.

He must have got a piece from the INFP he has been stressing about

 

[Poki]

Fuck work, this is far more interesting. (once you apply compassionate detachment in the workplace, everything just goes downhill)

Onemortime-a lack of Fe is what allows INTJs to move mountains.

The can NiTe see every possible outcome, identify all disasters, all potholes, all barriers, mitigate and forge ahead. They cant see anything BUT reality-with every possible flaw, every permutation. And they dont care if anyone likes them. They dont care if you get mad at them. They dont care what anyone thinks of them.

Even the most diehard Fe user, cannot deny the brute force and strategic power of NiTe. Combine that with the lack of Fe and not leading with Fi, and they are drivers regardless if anyone likes it.

I am cursed with NeFi with a good dose of Te. I can NeTe see the whole fucking system melting down, I can't help but speak up and drive due to Te, yet am then left feeling utterly rejected due to NeFi wanting emotional affirmation. It's like I kick my own ass everyday. Maybe more like putting my own hand in the garbage disposal, yet I just cant quite stop myself. The truth/reality is just too obvious not to directly address.

ENTPs are very different. You buy into the Fe social fabric. You recreate your own social reality using Fe and play it like an instrument, with exceptional beauty and skill, excluding those who are not suited to the game with knife-like precision. But at some point it, Fe reality and true reality are no longer the same. Fe reality is full of smiles and congratulations and slaps on the back, only affirmation.

Reality is ugly, painful, full of failures and harsh. It must be addressed.

My very best ENTP man-a senior VP-let me down recently once I saw how he also bought into the Fe social fabric in trade for Ti logic. But, perhaps key to his success-he surrounds himself with INTJs at the next level down. He has five now and turns them loose on nightmarish problems. It's brutal, yet fascinating.

A question-if an ENTP can recreate a social reality based upon Fe, can they create one in which they are isolated and function like an INTJ, becoming independent of the social fabric?

As inferior as my Fe is it still gets in the way every once in a while.

On a side note, the thing I do that really gets under the skin of INTJ is when I start playing with their Ni. My dad had some system of how something like love or caring worked and right after he explained it I tore it down, twisted it around, and perfectly related it to part of terrorists. No matter what angle he took it lined up perfectly and you could see his frustration building because it was supposed to be some Fi, lovey dovey thing and I gutted it, stepped on it, and threw it to the dogs I never questioned the accuracy though and I thought he was right, just twisted it to show negative connotations of the same concept.

 

[sculpting]

Guys, maybe we should make a 'Analyze INTJs vs ENTPs'-thread for this..

Oh no, it's all about the love in the end... This is how ENFPs love people. We dissect their brains. It totally contributes to the "disaster".

If I put I LOVE INTJs in all my posts and surround with wubbies will it be okay?

 

[the state i am in]

Fe is important, as OMT says. But with INTJs you get something slightly different: with the lack of Fe (by which I mean the Fe that one emotionally feels, that motivation to conform), INTJs that become "socially adept" are doing more of an ENTJ thing, using Te instead of Fe. There is no need to conform, but there is a logistical problem of getting people to cooperate. It is possible, with a great deal of experience and skill, to use Te to that end, and have it (almost) seem like Fe. The difference is the motivation. The desire to "fit in" is lacking. Instead, the motivation is whatever goal the Te user has set, for which "fitting in" is simply a step to take to avoid the annoying problems caused by not fitting in.

you're so smart you nonconformist. go ahead and bake your brownies and bring your cupcakes to make everyone bend to your will. it's sooooo brilliant and masterminding!!!!

i do agree that Fi in intj is where that self-assuredness of divine right generally comes from in intj types. what's ultimately true for them and grounding and reinforces the value of their choices, goals, plans, actions, is the subjective truth of Fi without critically checking what Fi values say are true.

i also find the differences between infj appreciation of Ti and intj appreciation of Ti interesting. infjs love Ti bc it provides foundation, well-organized understanding, and grounded critical relationships to give Ni more solid material to blend into Ni understanding. whereas intjs oftentimes seem to find Ti to be a nuisance that gets in the way of their grandiose plans, rather than a useful tool to check the value and objective reality/meaning of said goals.

i don't understand why this is, tho perhaps there is a similar experience for infj with Fi. welcoming it selectively and when it feels relevant for one's own project, but getting frustrated when it threatens to bog it down with what don't seem like useful objections.

 

[Qre:us]

I think the funniest part about the INTJ-ENTP dynamic is that we understand the ENTP so well, but the ENTP seems to have no idea what makes us tick.

Trying to make simulatedworld take the bait. Tick tock.

Mostly, I use what SS did as a very lighthearted joke..

She later admitted (as did Z; present his side), it wasn't really as lighthearted a "joke" as she initially presented it to be.

And although it is something that if I were to do it more seriously, would harm him, he knows me well enough to know what I'm up to and he'll respond to the little game we got going that way (usually ends up in the bed somewhere ).

Yup, it works for the dynamics of you two. And, after all these years, it's not like each of you aren't aware of what the other is "playing" at - so if both consent, no harm, no foul.

But, like I told SS, I'm not her SO, and my response (inquiry) wasn't really about wanting to hear a justification for the behaviour (as I assumed that's between the person and their SO), and I don't care......it was more about why such a response irks me.

The pouting I do, coz he likes it. Yes, I know, it's weird. But he does. It's comparable to a kitten being stuck in a ball of yarn and looking at you with big eyes 'Help me!'. He finds it utterly adorable and amusing. And yes, I have 'abused' it in the way that you say. But he does that just fine with me too, he has his own tricks to get me to do things

It sounds like you guys interchange the parent-child role, quite often? One must become infantile/helpless, and the other feels validated by rescuing them from that state.*

You guys want to be with each other, not because you need to be with the other, right?
(I guess it's all a game of give-and-take flirtation...so I'll leave that alone, it's your dynamics with you SO)

* Amar, you and I had disucssed this. I guess the major difference between us is that such behaviour was (one of) the ultimate demise of my relationship with my INTJ, while to you and your INTJ, it's the ultimate security.

I read it as patronizing, infringing upon my independence, and I would have none of it. It literally felt like I wanted to push him away, forcefully, again and again, the more he seemed to want to "help me" for a perceived "helplessness" of mine...by the highlighting of the weakness. Unless I asked explicitly. I don't like "help" as much as I like being taught - "Help" me to do it myself.

Claustrophobic. Tightening. Wanting to scream bloody murder. Was my state. I kinda detest weakness - on some subconscious level.

The reason you didn't like the comment is probably becoz it reeks of manipulation. I have a permit for it though from him
And not all manipulation is necessarily bad. He knows he can trust me to use it with care, that I would never purposefully take advantage of him or harm him.

Yes. And, yes, manipulation is not necessarily bad, because the thing being manipulated can be a good thing (wanted) by both parties. I understand your pov.

However, and other ENTPs can comment, to me, in a way, all manipulation is "bad".

In this, I mean that manipulation is an influence that the other is not fully aware of, and as such, it feels like an infringement on the other's free will.

I think it's like a huge faux pas for me, because it makes reality "selective".

E.g., I see default state (without manipulation) as having a la carte to all the possible realities of a moment, unconstrained Ne. Free for my taking, any way I want to. Truth.

So when someone tries to "manipulate" me, it's like a cardinal sin, because they are trying to narrow down, skew, the possible Ne associations that is there for my taking. And, they're trying to decide which "Ne" would be valid/should be presented to me/for me.

It feels like an infringment on my most basic rights regarding thoughts. Hence, "bad"=manipulation.

I do love cute little bird poop.

Thanks for valuing my droppings.

Comment 2- Amar's case: It's how we flirt. It's a subtle game of seeking dominance, but then letting the dominance be returned. A Te game of give and take, of need/not need but you can help me anyways, if it makes you feel stronger/of I cant really do this but I will try anyways. Totally flies in the face of everything ENTP women typically value in terms of independence. It's a little weird, but a Te thing. It appears to be the language we speak.

Yeah, I discussed it a bit above, in response to Amar.
I guess it's because I don't see relationships as a a game of submssion/dominance, or needing to have that aspect, in any way.

yup this sounds right-See mirror idea below. The biggest reflection always wins.

:steam: This makes me so angry! And, angry at Fi for such things. And, wary of Fi because of it, because it's not seeking truth but impact.

Fi extroverts it's emotive response-its exposes pain. It announces to the external world it is in pain. It is a call for help. Recognize this IS THE ONLY WAY another Fi user understands that user 1 needs help. User1's pain triggers a mirrored pain response in user2, that forces user2 to help user1.

That makes sense, thank you. I guess, my response is, it seems awfully draining to mirror the pain response. Why not tap into your databank of memory: you know what pain is/was like, its debilitating capacity, so now that you see it, you help, given that you have an understanding of what pain is?

Not necessarily needing to mirror it first. Seems the easier (least energy-taxing) route.

Rather than rely upon social reciprocation via shared affection/shared resources-Fe, we rely upon well-fuck, for lack of a better term-manipulation of another's internal emotions-Fi, to garner the assistance we need. It is manipulation, but between two Fi users, should really be considered more a form of communication. It's how we share and help each other.

It may appear selfish but remember we are bound by the same biological effect to mirror another's pain, thus help them later. We kinda take turns I guess.

I guess my question is, why take such turns in the first place? Why play this game? Why put one person in the position of "weakness"/taking, and the other in a position of "strength"/giving?

Why not give and take because you can and want to give, and the other decides (independently) that they can and want to, take?

.....not to play out this dynamic of (to me: energy draining) strength/weakness, dominance/submission [read: manipulation]. And repeat. Ad nauseum.

I guess, I have a hard time boosting someone's ego, worth, by making myself appear "weak". Or ever wanting that from the other. I can't see it as a "flirt".

I rather meet them as a challenge, a worthy "opponent", and through that interaction, we give nods: him to certain strength in skills of mine, as I do to his. And we learn. To mimic his skills to patch my weakness. And, him, the same to me.

And, we realize how better we can challenge an "outsider" given that we've figured out how to "dance", skills pitted against each other, now working in tandem.

It's like in a "fight", where in the beginning it's clumsy, unpredictable, watching two people go at it, and then, if they do it enough, both giving it their all (their honest worth), soon, the "fight" turns into a dance, and they sway to each other's movement. Because they've learned, respected, and appreciated each other's skills. And, anticipated each other's weakness, and the one with the weakness has learned how to turn it into a strength by watching the other. Without bowing down. Without manipulation.

One step forward, two step back. Two steps forward, one step back. <- this is what Fi "manipulation" feels like to me, never progressing anywhere.

Versus

One step forward, shake me, break me, if you can't, one more step forward I shall move. Onwards. Always. Never "back". <- this is how I see interactions without such "manipulation".

I have noticed ENTPs in particular respond in withdraw at overt Fi usage. A couple of thoughts?

Yes, it feels disingenuous to me, as I'm guessing ENTPs Fe would feel to you (but for different reasons).

1. Perhaps it starts the process of evoking an uncosncious Fi within you. Thus you start down the road of mirroring their emotive state-which I'd imagine feels horrifically invasive and intrusive as well as manipulative. My entp friend says Fi makes her unable to think.

Yeah, or attempting to to appeal to my "Fi"...which feels manipulative, because you're not appealing to my strengths, my Ne, my Ti, my Fe.

2. You guys are very sensitive to subtle facial cues and ENFPs are highly expressive and also very sensitive to subtle signs of social withdraw on other';s faces. I emote, you cringe, I emote more not understanding why you cringed, even pursuing you as I still need assistance, then overly emoting. The pair may return to a state of status quo, but it is a guarded one, and each picks up that the other is on guard via subtle observations-the lack of eye contact perhaps, the dry mouth, the lack of overt emoting on the ENFPs part?

I actually do detest being manipulated, good or bad. Like, someone is suprising me, and, giving this elaborate story, of wanting me to go the movies with them (so the others could decorate my room for when we returned)....of course, it's harmless and "good" manipulation. It's thoughtful on their part. But, it irked me so bad. I guess it's the idea that they even believe I can be manipulated - which irks me so. Ask me, simply, just, ask me (give me this respect, autonomy). To meet you at equal footing.

3. It may just be that Fi is utterly alien to most entps as you use it so rarely. Sometime I'll show you the goggle eyed picture. It's my ENTP deterrent.

Heh, now you've got my Ne curious. I wanna see the google eyed picture!

How to deal with the cryer? I'd use Te to call her on her acting like a child and lacking in accountibility. However my opinion is way, way harsh. I have an ESFP sister.

A neat thing you see with Fi-the boy who cried wolf effect. If someone uses Fi manipulatively, after awhile we learn to selectively screen that person out of our mirrored data set.

OMG, yes, what an accurate insight. It often feels like "the boy who cried wolf", with Fi.

As for what I did with her, I asked her once to calmly discuss, sans the hysterics of tears. She seemed to twist that (for the audience's benefit) that I'm being harsh/mean, and continued to cry louder. So, my attack went into high gear.

Until she had stopped crying, and was begging me, "Please stop, look I've stopped crying, stop." But, by then, it was too late. I was gonna drag that sucker through the mud, bloodied and bruised. Real tears couldn't help but fall. So she'd learn to never ever fake tears with me again.

She wanted tears? She would get tears.

But, I've grown up much since those days. I'm much more patient and considerate now.

 

[onemoretime]

Lots to talk about...

Fuck work, this is far more interesting. (once you apply compassionate detachment in the workplace, everything just goes downhill)

Onemortime-a lack of Fe is what allows INTJs to move mountains.

The can NiTe see every possible outcome, identify all disasters, all potholes, all barriers, mitigate and forge ahead. They cant see anything BUT reality-with every possible flaw, every permutation. And they dont care if anyone likes them. They dont care if you get mad at them. They dont care what anyone thinks of them.

And for that one in a million, great. For the 999,999 without Fe that crash and burn behind him or her, wallowing in self-pity and contempt towards those who didn't recognize their greatness, well, that's a sad existence.

Even the most diehard Fe user, cannot deny the brute force and strategic power of NiTe. Combine that with the lack of Fe and not leading with Fi, and they are drivers regardless if anyone likes it.

You wonder where NeTi gets its impishness from? This here is it. As we've discussed before, we're the ultimate egalitarians. You prove your worth through your usefulness. If you take charge, you better tell us what you're going to do, or we will sabotage your efforts out of personal offense. This isn't merely pettiness, either: we'd rather your plan fail safely than spectacularly, or succeed contrary to our own goals. Negotiation's the key, it's a basic tenet of respect.

I am cursed with NeFi with a good dose of Te. I can NeTe see the whole fucking system melting down, I can't help but speak up and drive due to Te, yet am then left feeling utterly rejected due to NeFi wanting emotional affirmation. It's like I kick my own ass everyday. Maybe more like putting my own hand in the garbage disposal, yet I just cant quite stop myself. The truth/reality is just too obvious not to directly address.

ENTPs are very different. You buy into the Fe social fabric. You recreate your own social reality using Fe and play it like an instrument, with exceptional beauty and skill, excluding those who are not suited to the game with knife-like precision. But at some point it, Fe reality and true reality are no longer the same. Fe reality is full of smiles and congratulations and slaps on the back, only affirmation.

It's simply working the levers, darlin'. Fe reality is reality; that is, it is society. Most xNTPs, as far as I have known, go through a solipsist phase in their life. This ends fairly quickly as the material consequences of one's thoughts are fully understood. The lovely part about this is that the structure begins to make itself manifest - it's power, pure and simple. However, power is a delicate thing, easy to overwhelm and easy to escape. You begin to understand that coercive power is far from insuperable; you've taken your hits in the day, and they're far easier to withstand than you may fear.

On the other hand, persuasive power changes the world. That when a man is convinced of something, he is even harder to move than a mountain, and no amount of vision or firmness of will can make him budge.

This is both wondrous and terribly frightening.

Reality is ugly, painful, full of failures and harsh. It must be addressed.

You address it by realizing the chains of causation, and then altering them so that the result differs from what is known.

My very best ENTP man-a senior VP-let me down recently once I saw how he also bought into the Fe social fabric in trade for Ti logic. But, perhaps key to his success-he surrounds himself with INTJs at the next level down. He has five now and turns them loose on nightmarish problems. It's brutal, yet fascinating.

A question-if an ENTP can recreate a social reality based upon Fe, can they create one in which they are isolated and function like an INTJ, becoming independent of the social fabric?

Yes and no. Yes in that the hyperfocus is there and one can harness it through seclusion. No in that without someone to share the joy of the results with, it's unlikely that this sort of state would ever be achieved.

My internal joy comes from being able to share my joy externally. I don't understand why being a "know-it-all" is such a bad thing - I collect information so that I may constantly be useful to others. It may come off as obnoxious because, well, the typical masculine role is an aggressive one.

 

[onemoretime]

But 'maybe' is a saying used by those who lack the knowledge.

That sentence denies everything we know about quantum physics.

Knowledge is indeed powerful. Power is that which we have no will to control. And if knowledge controls and cannot be controlled than knowledge is indeed powerful.

Does knowledge control? How do you define control?

Yes, I'll keep doing this all day - because I'm not going to go left or right like a trained monkey. I'll go up, down, forwards, backwards, or maybe a combination of these directions. We say these words, but at their best, they are nothing more than gross approximations. We scale up, and they become so insignificant as to bear nothing upon the greater workings of the universe. We scale downward, and eventually we get to the terrifying point where we realize that everything is essentially nothing.

And that is why the answer to your question is mu.

 

[Poki]

Yup, it works for the dynamics of you two. And, after all these years, it's not like each of you aren't aware of what the other is "playing" at - so if both consent, no harm, no foul.

But, like I told SS, I'm not her SO, and my response (inquiry) wasn't really about wanting to hear a justification for the behaviour (as I assumed that's between the person and their SO), and I don't care......it was more about why such a response irks me.



It sounds like you guys interchange the parent-child role, quite often? One must become infantile/helpless, and the other feels validated by rescuing them from that state.*

You guys want to be with each other, not because you need to be with the other, right?
(I guess it's all a game of give-and-take flirtation...so I'll leave that alone, it's your dynamics with you SO)

* Amar, you and I had disucssed this. I guess the major difference between us is that such behaviour was (one of) the ultimate demise of my relationship with my INTJ, while to you and your INTJ, it's the ultimate security.

I read it as patronizing, infringing upon my independence, and I would have none of it. It literally felt like I wanted to push him away, forcefully, again and again, the more he seemed to want to "help me" for a perceived "helplessness" of mine...by the highlighting of the weakness. Unless I asked explicitly. I don't like "help" as much as I like being taught - "Help" me to do it myself.

Claustrophobic. Tightening. Wanting to scream bloody murder. Was my state. I kinda detest weakness - on some subconscious level.

Are you by chance socionics INFJ? Just something I noticed how what I percieve to be a difference between J/P while actions may be similiar they respond different. You kinda outlined it here as what matters is intentions as intentions is what drives the response. you didnt intend to, but thats how he saw it. Me and my wife have got into this arguement before.

I snapped at something she said and she snapped back. I responded that if I got her intentions wrong and she knew it why did she snap back at me instead of trying to resolve it or explain it right there. She argued that I just need to change how I respond. Sounds similiar to what you went through.

In your case you could have kept saying you didnt need help when he tried and he could have just stopped trying. I am guessing both are driven in natural responses.

 

[uumlau]

you're so smart you nonconformist. go ahead and bake your brownies and bring your cupcakes to make everyone bend to your will. it's sooooo brilliant and masterminding!!!!

i do agree that Fi in intj is where that self-assuredness of divine right generally comes from in intj types. what's ultimately true for them and grounding and reinforces the value of their choices, goals, plans, actions, is the subjective truth of Fi without critically checking what Fi values say are true.

i also find the differences between infj appreciation of Ti and intj appreciation of Ti interesting. infjs love Ti bc it provides foundation, well-organized understanding, and grounded critical relationships to give Ni more solid material to blend into Ni understanding. whereas intjs oftentimes seem to find Ti to be a nuisance that gets in the way of their grandiose plans, rather than a useful tool to check the value and objective reality/meaning of said goals.

i don't understand why this is, tho perhaps there is a similar experience for infj with Fi. welcoming it selectively and when it feels relevant for one's own project, but getting frustrated when it threatens to bog it down with what don't seem like useful objections.

I think there's a lot to that Fe is to Fi as Te is to Ti observation. I was watching a series of youtube videos with an INFP and INFJ going at it. The INFJ was expressing the same kind of frustration with the INFP as an INTJ would toward an INTP (very diplomatic; they were talking about the frustration, not being frustrated) ... except it was all dealing with feelings instead of objective theoretical observations.

For my part, I don't think Ti gets in the way so much as the Ne from an INTP hides crucial info from me, that it takes forever to get out. I don't find my own Ti anywhere nearly so annoying.

With respect to Te vs. Fe, I find that INFJs tend to sound a lot like INTJs to me. It's only when we disagree that I find out it's an INFJ, because the terms of the disagreement take a long time to discover.

And yes, I think you're right with respect to Fi. It's where our confidence lies. However, I think you have it backwards: Fi isn't confident in its feeling/subjective truths, but rather it is confident in Te's objective truths, which are verified in the real world. (It is a naive confidence, at times, but gradually less so as the INTJ matures.)

 

[Amargith]

Q...you know how when you're together with someone and you don't say anything, but use bodylanguage to indicate what you want? Particularly in bed, but also just coz..well you know one another and you just squeeze theirh and to let them know you care, or what not? And in essence, your hands can guide someone to the bed, or push them down, or make their body respond to yours... = manipulation

Ask a Se-user, they 'talk' primarily like this. And they don't need words to get what the other wants.

Fi does the same. Just emotionally. Often we use innuendo instead of actual concrete words to do so.. a dramatic voice, a facial expression, a typical reaction which cues the other to our state of mind. A certain phrase in a certain context. All those things are buttons you can push to change the other person's mood. Much like you'd position your lovers body on the bed and show them what you want without speaking, emotionally manipulating the other person's emotional state shows them what you want...what you're thinking. And they have the right to reject that request, and they will if need be. But yeah, in essence, it is a manipulation of their emotional state to sync in with yours.

The reason we do it? Coz it feels intense, closely connected, builds intimacy, feels safe. It's something you two share, and is special. It feels like a sweet caress, but instead of your body, it caresses your mind and soul..your heart.

What you're suggesting sounds to me like bartering and haggling. Way more rocky road, way less smooth. Kinda like telling your partner to get in bed already. Way to ruin the moment, seriously. Two people who sync up rarely need more than half a word. Words become obsolete. It's the tone or vibe behind them that works, or the bodylanguage that transfers true meaning. Syncing up is what I seek, and crave. It's utter bliss.

 

[Qre:us]

Are you by chance socionics INFJ? Just something I noticed how what I percieve to be a difference between J/P while actions may be similiar they respond different. You kinda outlined it here as what matters is intentions as intentions is what drives the response. you didnt intend to, but thats how he saw it. Me and my wife have got into this arguement before.

I snapped at something she said and she snapped back. I responded that if I got her intentions wrong and she knew it why did she snap back at me instead of trying to resolve it or explain it right there. She argued that I just need to change how I respond. Sounds similiar to what you went through.

In your case you could have kept saying you didnt need help when he tried and he could have just stopped trying. I am guessing both are driven in natural responses.

Yes, it is about intention, but not intention at a conscious level. The intention can be good, pure, but, if the underlying intention is manipulation, I will respond either: (1) give you an unpenetrable wall, or, (2) take it as an invitation for a free-for-all to manipulate back, and I will manipulate in such a way that it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

Manipulation (good or bad) to me is an infringement on my autonomy, and I will fight tooth and nails to eradicate it.

There's more than one way to go about something. If our relationship is of any value, come to me honestly, all cards on the table, transparency....

The INTJ ex and I had discussed, and I knew right away when his intentions were good, and even pointed that out to him, I know you do X to help me, but, helping me by infringing on my autonomy is more a hindrance than a help. Teach me to be my own master, not to be indebted/rely on your mastery.

And, I don't think I'm socionics INFJ. I think you're seeing the conflict between Fe and Fi processing.

Q...you know how when you're together with someone and you don't say anything, but use bodylanguage to indicate what you want? Particularly in bed, but also just coz..well you know one another and you just squeeze theirh and to let them know you care, or what not? And in essence, your hands can guide someone to the bed, or push them down, or make their body respond to yours... = manipulation

I don't see this as manipulation, like I've used the term thus far. This is giving in such a way that you imply they can openly take. It is consensual. The way I've used manipulation is when someone is being made/directed to react in such a way because they're not privy to all the truth/information. I would call your quoted, persuasion.

Fi does the same. Just emotionally. Often we use innuendo instead of actual concrete words to do so.. a dramatic voice, a facial expression, a typical reaction which cues the other to our state of mind. A certain phrase in a certain context. All those things are buttons you can push to change the other person's mood. Much like you'd position your lovers body on the bed and show them what you want without speaking, emotionally manipulating the other person's emotional state shows them what you want...what you're thinking. And they have the right to reject that request, and they will if need be. But yeah, in essence, it is a manipulation of their emotional state to sync in with yours.

The reason we do it? Coz it feels intense, closely connected, builds intimacy, feels safe. It's something you two share, and is special. It feels like a sweet caress, but instead of your body, it caresses your mind and soul..your heart.

Sorry, Amar, the bolded does not resonate with me at all. If anything, it feels the opposite of safe, it feels like an illusion of safety, an illusion of intimacy, an illusion of connection. Since, it's built on the framework of manipulation.

What you're suggesting sounds to me like bartering and haggling. Way more rocky road, way less smooth. Kinda like telling your partner to get in bed already. Way to ruin the moment, seriously. Two people who sync up rarely need more than half a word. Words become obsolete. It's the tone or vibe behind them that works, or the bodylanguage that transfers true meaning. Syncing up is what I seek, and crave. It's utter bliss.

We navigate this social world through "bartering and haggling" - compromise. It too can be delivered with a flirty tone, with persuasiveness, with gentleness. Persuasion +. Manipulation -. Persuasion is different than manipluation. It's like selling an used car. You lay out its true, honest fault, and then give such a sales pitch that you make a case for why even with its faults, it's still a good deal. Manipulation is when you hide the faults of the car, highlight "false" (trite) faults, or, "strengths" and present it in a way that it makes the car a good deal.

 

[onemoretime]

Yes. And, yes, manipulation is not necessarily bad, because the thing being manipulated can be a good thing (wanted) by both parties. I understand your pov.

However, and other ENTPs can comment, to me, in a way, all manipulation is "bad".

In this, I mean that manipulation is an influence that the other is not fully aware of, and as such, it feels like an infringement on the other's free will.

I think it's like a huge faux pas for me, because it makes reality "selective".

E.g., I see default state (without manipulation) as having a la carte to all the possible realities of a moment, unconstrained Ne. Free for my taking, any way I want to. Truth.

So when someone tries to "manipulate" me, it's like a cardinal sin, because they are trying to narrow down, skew, the possible Ne associations that is there for my taking. And, they're trying to decide which "Ne" would be valid/should be presented to me/for me.

It feels like an infringment on my most basic rights regarding thoughts. Hence, "bad"=manipulation.

I actually do detest being manipulated, good or bad. Like, someone is suprising me, and, giving this elaborate story, of wanting me to go the movies with them (so the others could decorate my room for when we returned)....of course, it's harmless and "good" manipulation. It's thoughtful on their part. But, it irked me so bad. I guess it's the idea that they even believe I can be manipulated - which irks me so. Ask me, simply, just, ask me (give me this respect, autonomy). To meet you at equal footing.

I could not agree more with both of these statements. Manipulation hits me in a wrong, wrong place - it's like a gut punch combined with righteous indignation.

The gut punch comes from betrayal and disrespect. Manipulation seriously violates my internalized "golden rule" - I sure as hell don't want to be manipulated, so I don't manipulate others. I know sometimes it can be more advantageous to do so, but I quite distinctly cannot do it... until you give me a reason to. You violate that rule, it's revenge time - after the righteous indignation passes, I wouldn't be shocked if ice crystals form in the blood.

The righteous indignation could also be called arrogance; I see that as an apt comparison. This arises from the dissolution of the bonds of trust - remember, we generally trust others until they give us a reason not to. It's literally a feeling of "YOU really think you could sneak that past ME?" I know when I could potentially be duped - NeTi is always looking for outcomes. However, I trusted you to do the right thing by me, since I've given you no reason not to. You fucked up by manipulating, I fucked up by trusting you. I don't get nearly as mad as anyone as I do myself, but you did yourself a favor, buddy, by giving me a justified target to transfer the rage to.

Yes, it feels disingenuous to me, as I'm guessing ENTPs Fe would feel to you (but for different reasons).

In me, it evokes the thoughts of "what are you trying to prove, and to whom?" leading to "come on, seriously, get over yourself" and then to "shut the fuck up, no one gives a shit but you". At that point, it's frustration over unfairly burdening others with personal issues.

That being said, if I know you and am close, this sort of tenacity gives me a good thing to advocate for.

See the common threads? Agreement. Reciprocality. Fairness.

 

[onemoretime]

What you're suggesting sounds to me like bartering and haggling. Way more rocky road, way less smooth. Kinda like telling your partner to get in bed already. Way to ruin the moment, seriously.

You're telling me that "take me to bed or I'll leave you forever" isn't romantic as hell? Or "last one to the bed makes breakfast"?

It's cheeky. Playful. Fun. Acting how two people who make each other genuinely joyful in each other's presence should. Meanwhile, the silent treatment just leaves me isolated, not knowing your motivations or even your emotional state. Did you do it out of obligation or sexual desire?

Two people who sync up rarely need more than half a word. Words become obsolete. It's the tone or vibe behind them that works, or the bodylanguage that transfers true meaning. Syncing up is what I seek, and crave. It's utter bliss.

That may be true for you, but as you know, it's not everyone's reality. If I'm not getting constant external feedback, I don't know what direction to go in.

 

[Valiant]

To have his kneecaps split and his body burned away brave brave brave brave Sir Robin

Yes, this is more interesting. Happy Puppy, that's a great analysis of INTJs; balanced, because the flaws are strengths and vice versa, depending on the situation.

Fe is important, as OMT says. But with INTJs you get something slightly different: with the lack of Fe (by which I mean the Fe that one emotionally feels, that motivation to conform), INTJs that become "socially adept" are doing more of an ENTJ thing, using Te instead of Fe. There is no need to conform, but there is a logistical problem of getting people to cooperate. It is possible, with a great deal of experience and skill, to use Te to that end, and have it (almost) seem like Fe. The difference is the motivation. The desire to "fit in" is lacking. Instead, the motivation is whatever goal the Te user has set, for which "fitting in" is simply a step to take to avoid the annoying problems caused by not fitting in.

First off. Great post.
It got me thinking.

I'd like to think of myself as a socially adept INTJ. My Fe has always been high up on the list just under Te in functions tests...
You're saying that it isn't really Fe, but Te?

We have a small dilemma. I know that my motivations for doing things normally associated with ENFJs/ENFPs is different than theirs...
But does that mean that Fi is motivating Fe doms like the ENFJ?
That's kind of what you are describing, right?
It's kind of interesting that the ENFJ generally have a lesser priority for Introverted Feeling than the INTJ and yet have this emotional motivation for using Fe?
Doesn't make sense.

I'd have it that it would be the other way around, to be honest.
ENFJs and ESFJs seem to motivate their stuff subconsciously but logically,
whereas INTJs do it manually with some mix of that they really care and that it's more practical.


Deviating from the subject a bit...
It's probably easier to make out one of the socially inept aspie-like or actual aspie INTJs than a "real" ones, because most sane ones would have learned how to use Fe (or Te, i'm not dismissing what you said, uumlau) to read and accommodate people.
Not saying I hate aspies, I just know from a lot of personal experience that they are really hard to like in the first place and the rest is a big challenge.
And in this particular case, seeming like they are more numerous, they give the rest of us a bad name.

 

[Amargith]

Sorry, Amar, the bolded does not resonate with me at all. If anything, it feels the opposite of safe, it feels like an illusion of safety, an illusion of intimacy, an illusion of connection. Since, it's built on the framework of manipulation.



We navigate this social world through "bartering and haggling" - compromise. It too can be delivered with a flirty tone, with persuasiveness, with gentleness. Persuasion +. Manipulation -. Persuasion is different than manipluation. It's like selling an used car. You lay out its true, honest fault, and then give such a sales pitch that you make a case for why even with its faults, it's still a good deal. Manipulation is when you hide the faults of the car, highlight "false" (trite) faults, or, "strengths" and present it in a way that it makes the car a good deal.

It creates a social distance, to me at least. The purpose of the sync up, to me, is to become almost one. Much like dancing couples become an extension of each other, much like in sex, it becomes awesome when the individual lines blur..the same can be reached emotionally. What you're suggesting is great to get people to cooperate..but it won't blurr the lines

And I have no problem with someone gently nudging me emotionally, to sync up with me. I'll instantly notice it and smile. And the intention behind it is usually crystal clear. If a guy tries to just get in my pants by being sugar sweet and reading me emotionally to use to his advantage, I'll smile and give him the run around. I appreciate his attempt, but it's unlikely to work *grin*. If my SO comes up to me and hugs me tightly, I know he's stressed, and seeking a release valve. I can feel his need, his craving and his relief of pain as he holds me. Why on earth would I ever deny him that? Why would I ever want to make him voice it, somethign he's not comfortable with, and which would take away from that moment of unity? That doesn't make sense to me. There's no need for words. Understanding is already there. And the fact that nobody else sees what I see just adds to it. He shares that moment with me, and me alone.

You're telling me that "take me to bed or I'll leave you forever" isn't romantic as hell? Or "last one to the bed makes breakfast"?

It's cheeky. Playful. Fun. Acting how two people who make each other genuinely joyful in each other's presence should. Meanwhile, the silent treatment just leaves me isolated, not knowing your motivations or even your emotional state. Did you do it out of obligation or sexual desire?



That may be true for you, but as you know, it's not everyone's reality. If I'm not getting constant external feedback, I don't know what direction to go in.

I'm merely explaining to Q why to me these things aren't manipulation in a bad way. I'm aware others don't experience it this way

And yes, it is cheeky and playful, and it can lead to more. It's unlikely to turn me on. I'm more likely to hit you with a pillow if you say that to me, in order to at least build up some sexual tension. I've had sex in this state, and it leads to giggle-sex. While fun, not my fav.

My fav type of sex comes from losing yourself in one another, syncing up. To me, syncing up is silent. It's breathing together, reading each others bodylanguage, *knowing* what the other feels and allowing your body to naturally make the next move in order to communicate to your partner what you want, to communicate what you're feeling to them and transfer that emotion to them, so they in turn can respond to you emotionally...it's building up an emotional orgasm, as well as a physical one.

 

[Qre:us]

See the common threads? Agreement. Reciprocality. Fairness.

Jenocyde was discussing with me one time, and she summed up Fe quite well. It's fairness.

At it's default state it is blinded, balanced scale.

While Fi as a default state is eyes wide open, unbalanced scale.

Fi is passion over agreement. Impact over reciprocity. Personal values over fairness.

It creates a social distance, to me at least. The purpose of the sync up, to me, is to become almost one. Much like dancing couples become an extension of each other, much like in sex, it becomes awesome when the individual lines blur..the same can be reached emotionally. What you're suggesting is great to get people to cooperate..but it won't blurr the lines

I don't see how this is achieved solely by manipulation, and cannot be achieved by persuasion (without manipulation)?

It is cooperative in that both acknowledge they want to "meld" into one another for that moment, and both come together, freely, both move to the center together, each taking their own step. To meet.

It's euphoric, when you know that they want to be there (not feeling like they "need" to be there - manipulated to feel so), and they met you there, out of their own free will.

And I have no problem with someone gently nudging me emotionally, to sync up with me. I'll instantly notice it and smile. And the intention behind it is usually crystal clear.

To me, it's about them being naked emotionally, and I come to them, out of my own volition, because I see their nakedness, their honest vulnerability, and given such an honest state of being, I want to cover them.

I wouldn't need a nudge. I'd feel guilty if, in such a state, they needed to nudge me for me to come to them. Their state, with or without me there, that vulnerability of the emotion, the honest emotion, is what will draw me. Not the one they present because they just saw me walk in to the room.

If a guy tries to just get in my pants by being sugar sweet and reading me emotionally to use to his advantage, I'll smile and give him the run around. I appreciate his attempt, but it's unlikely to work *grin*. If my SO comes up to me and hugs me tightly, I know he's stressed, and seeking a release valve. I can feel his need, his craving and his relief of pain as he holds me. Why on earth would I ever deny him that? Why would I ever want to make him voice it, somethign he's not comfortable with, and which would take away from that moment of unity? That doesn't make sense to me. There's no need for words. Understanding is already there. And the fact that nobody else sees what I see just adds to it. He shares that moment with me, and me alone.

Why are you associating manipulation with silence? Even if there's no manipulation, it can all occur without spoken words. Just as you have outlined above.

 

[Poki]

You're telling me that "take me to bed or I'll leave you forever" isn't romantic as hell? Or "last one to the bed makes breakfast"?

It's cheeky. Playful. Fun. Acting how two people who make each other genuinely joyful in each other's presence should. Meanwhile, the silent treatment just leaves me isolated, not knowing your motivations or even your emotional state. Did you do it out of obligation or sexual desire?



That may be true for you, but as you know, it's not everyone's reality. If I'm not getting constant external feedback, I don't know what direction to go in.

We already know if you do it out of obligation or desire. We can sense that while we are taking you down that road. We can sense any hesitation and fight along the way.

Im not one to say I will race you to bed. I am more the one to hop over the couch, start kissing you on the neck. Or put my hand on the side of your face, touch foreheads, while I pull you close to me. I can sense the slightest hesitation when I take control and my mind is already racing to see if its fear, hesitation, etc, but you will never notice that as I continue to try to draw you in and I continue to try to figure out what path to take.

I can tell if you feel obligated, its a natural part of who we are and what we have become accustomed to sensing. Doesnt mean I wont stop, but it does mean that I need to figure something else out to get past that obligation feeling. I can sense when the person pulls back to much though. The key is to not shut off what your senses are pulling in.

P.S. those that do speak in this fashion, it is EXTREMELY obvious when we do out of obligation as opposed to desire. It is felt even without words.