[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[Qre:us]

Wrong thread perhaps....but...

[long post]

Mine knows better by now. Taking something away from me or commenting on how I'm dealing with it is bound to get you yelled at and things flung at your head if i don't drop it all so you can sort it out yourself ( and I will start acting like a brat and make you do *everything* since I am apparently incompetent). He learned really quickly not to do that, though sometimes he cannot stop the comments from coming out

He also knows by now that if I feel like I'm fumbling, I'll pout at him to help me. And for some bizarre reason he loves playing 'Knight in shining armour'. Also, after he's done, I'll let him tease me at my fumbling and my clear need of a man. And all is well again

Reading those two responses above, (1) stood out, (2) irked me. It's obviously something about me, my processing of the info.....but, I thought I'd mention as a difference between ENXP women, perhaps.

And, happy to hear any reasons of why those would irk me so, as I can't quite put my finger on it.

It's nothing personal to the posters, just those two posts stuck out. Meh.

No wonder the ENTPs think we are FUCKING crazy.

Yes. not always, though

 

[Kalach]

But a decrease in enthusiasm during the courting process, in general, and ESPECIALLY for enfps is a bad sign, sorry, Kalach, it just is.

That's totally and completely utterly okay. Absolutely and totally within reason. Understandable 100 percent. People choose. People react to events. People go their own way.

And if an INTJ goes ahead and acts normally on an attraction, and of course owns that attraction as his own, which is to say, acts on the attraction, well fuck, what are you suggesting--that the ENFP is the measure of the INTJ's attraction?

Good god, people. Find out what's real and roll with it. That's what people do. If you find out that the attraction is not reciprocated, what do you lose?

Who wants to hide their humanity by saying no to what's inside them? If you're attracted, act. If she says no, accept. Be human. Read signs like a spider in a web, or create opportunity through action.


Avoid the ENFP if she is some kind of emotional invalid. Otherwise, pretend she is a normal person who can speak her truth like anyone else.

 

[SillySapienne]

Reading those two responses above, (1) stood out, (2) irked me. It's obviously something about me, my processing of the info.....but, I thought I'd mention as a difference between ENXP women, perhaps.

And, happy to hear any reasons of why those would irk me so, as I can't quite put my finger on it.

It's nothing personal to the posters, just those two posts stuck out. Meh.



Yes.

Which long post?

I is confuzid!

:?

 

[Qre:us]

Which long post?

I is confuzid!

:?

If you click on the arrow to the right of your name, that I quoted; it will take you to the original post.

 

[SillySapienne]

That's totally and completely utterly okay. Absolutely and totally within reason. Understandable 100 percent. People choose. People react to events. People go their own way.

And if an INTJ goes ahead and acts normally on an attraction, and of course owns that attraction as his own, which is to say, acts on the attraction, well fuck, what are you suggesting--that the ENFP is the measure of the INTJ's attraction?

Good god, people. Find out what's real and roll with it. That's what people do. If you find out that the attraction is not reciprocated, what do you lose?

Who wants to hide their humanity by saying no to what's inside them? If you're attracted, act. If she says no, accept. Be human. Read signs like a spider in a web, or create opportunity through action.


Avoid the ENFP if she is some kind of emotional invalid. Otherwise, pretend she is a normal person who can speak her truth like anyone else.

GAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!

You INTJs are frakin' weird!!!

What has this world come to?!?!?

Intimacy via text message!??!?

Obviously, you two live close enough to each other to actually SEE and BE with one and other.

My question is this.

Four dates and you guys are TEXTING, not TALKING!?!?!

Why has there been no mentioning of actual verbal, as in speech, exchange?!!?

I don't understand "dating" to be honest.

If you romantically like someone, and they like you, and you live close to each other, you hang out, period.

That's how human beings do.

 

[Zarathustra]

I think you speak the truth.

So I went to lunch today with my ENTP sidekick. We were chatting about INTJs, cause you know, they are just cool and stuff and sometimes come up as topics of conversation.

So both pondered the nature of Ni with our Ne sparkly brains.

She described how once she experienced Ni-she was sitting in a park, depressed, sad, shadow INTJ-like and looking at a row of houses in a long line next to a park. Suddenly the houses seemed to be on fire. She said it was amazing.

I explained how when I was cheating with Fe, I could sometimes get a taste of Ni. It made trees become very strange things-become broccoli like. Also it made the marble tile on a counter become one with a picture of the background radiation of the universe, that I once saw. Things seemed to "be" other things. Not "be like" but "be".

This sounds fucking stupid huh? However we both sat there in states of awe, recalling these experiences. Stunned, silent awe, which is saying something as we dont typically shut up.

I looked at her and I said, "Imagine being able to do that to all of reality." I dont even understand what that means.

Listening to non-Ni users attempting to describe Ni always reminds me just how lucky I am to be an INTJ...

 

[SillySapienne]

If you click on the arrow to the right of your name, that I quoted; it will take you to the original post.

Hmm, I don't know why it irked you.

And, I don't know what to say?!?!

 

[thescientist]

No, sadly, in this particular situation, I really AM a tentative mature INTJ. 52 to be exact. Just incredibly confused, and a little sad. Your advice on the various threads has been quite good. Anything that you can offer here?

Question for you...who initiated the texting and 3 dates?

 

[Kalach]

That's totally and completely utterly okay. Absolutely and totally within reason. Understandable 100 percent. People choose. People react to events. People go their own way.

And if an INTJ goes ahead and acts normally on an attraction, and of course owns that attraction as his own, which is to say, acts on the attraction, well fuck, what are you suggesting--that the ENFP is the measure of the INTJ's attraction?

Good god, people. Find out what's real and roll with it. That's what people do. If you find out that the attraction is not reciprocated, what do you lose?

Who wants to hide their humanity by saying no to what's inside them? If you're attracted, act. If she says no, accept. Be human. Read signs like a spider in a web, or create opportunity through action.


Avoid the ENFP if she is some kind of emotional invalid. Otherwise, pretend she is a normal person who can speak her truth like anyone else.

ps. for the kiddies reading at home, the hysteria evident above is inferior Se anxiety being trumped by dominant Ne. The suggestion that analysis of possibilities is more important than creating some physical solution in the world sparks the flash of Fi.

I was right all along.



And FormItype, just ask her what she wants to do, and do the asking in the context of some positive proposal, like a date you thought would be good, or something simple that your intuition says would be pleasant. She's welcome to say no, isn't she? And you're okay with her choosing for herself, right? So whatever the hell happens, you get your chance to express something you care about and move on.

It's aggressive and assertive and invades someone's space, but you've already taken responsibility for that and you choose some action that does not harm, an action that is consultative. And, sorry for the hysteria. I'm having an F moment.

 

[SillySapienne]

That's totally and completely utterly okay. Absolutely and totally within reason. Understandable 100 percent. People choose. People react to events. People go their own way.

And if an INTJ goes ahead and acts normally on an attraction, and of course owns that attraction as his own, which is to say, acts on the attraction, well fuck, what are you suggesting--that the ENFP is the measure of the INTJ's attraction?

Good god, people. Find out what's real and roll with it. That's what people do. If you find out that the attraction is not reciprocated, what do you lose?

Who wants to hide their humanity by saying no to what's inside them? If you're attracted, act. If she says no, accept. Be human. Read signs like a spider in a web, or create opportunity through action.


Avoid the ENFP if she is some kind of emotional invalid. Otherwise, pretend she is a normal person who can speak her truth like anyone else.

Reading signs and non-verbal cues is an invaluable quality, but I agree with you.

If you are confused by someone's actions, ask them, simple as that.

But, sometimes, people drop hints, and it is nice when people catch them.

And, I realize the irony of my current stance on this because usually I am all about being real and up front with people, but confrontation which includes potentially hurting a good person's feelings, like really, reeally hurting their feelings, sucks.

:sad:

I'd much rather have it done to me than do it myself.

I have to admit, though, that this is definitely one of my *personal* flaws.

But sometimes nobody can give us closure but ourselves.

 

[Qre:us]

Hmm, I don't know why it irked you.

And, I don't know what to say?!?!

No worries, it was more of a dropping for Happy Puppy to stumble upon.

I think it's the inconsistency in expectation of behaviours from all parties involved that irked me in each of those posts. The bias clouding "fairness".

"Be sensitive to me, or I will get hurt, but, I don't need to extend the same sensitivity to [you], myself." - yours

"Don't tell me that I am incompetent, because I'll act like a brat, but, in another incident, I will play up my helplessness/incompetency to get you to do the thing for me, so you can re-assert the feeling of rescuing the 'damsel in distress'." - Amar's

 

[SillySapienne]

Fuck, I'm feeling guilty and presumptuous, all of the sudden.

Take Kalach's advice.

You really don't have much to lose, so might as well go out guns a blazin'!

 

[SillySapienne]

:
I think it's the inconsistency in expectation of behaviours from all parties involved that irked me in each of those posts. The bias clouding "fairness".

"Be sensitive to me, or I will get hurt, but, I don't need to extend the same sensitivity to [you], myself." - yours

I have issues with men that I have been battling my whole life.

Not an excuse, just an explanation.

I could explain to you, in detail, the psychology behind my issues with men, your typical, my-dad-was-an-abusive-shithead-sob-story, but I'll spare you and me the drama.

I treat people like I want to be treated, with a caveat, I am hyper-sensitive with guys I'm in relationships with, and this hyper-sensitivity can lead to hyper-reactivity on my part.

I just don't expect guys to be nearly as hyper-sensitive as I am.

Plus some other shit, but yeah.



Sorry, I rubbed you the wrong way.

 

[Zarathustra]

This isn't just about ENFPs being scattered ENFPs. This is also about INTJs being less than trusting by their own right.

Isn't it good/smart to be less-than-trusting, and bad to be less-than-trustable?

(the former being a positive value in all cases except when it comes at the expense of not trusting someone who is indeed worthy of being trusted, and the latter only achieving exception from being a negative value when it comes as a necessary corollary to some other positive value that somehow manages to outweigh its negativity? [in the case of ENFPs, the positive value being that of personability/enjoyability?])

And even then, wouldn't it still be greatly preferred for the ENFP to maintain the same degree of personability/enjoyability while ALSO being completely and totally trustable.

That combination might be enough to completely short circuit an INTJ's brain with lurrrve connection...

 

[thescientist]

And FormItype, just ask her what she wants to do, and do the asking in the context of some positive proposal, like a date you thought would be good, or something simple that your intuition says would be pleasant. She's welcome to say no, isn't she? And you're okay with her choosing for herself, right? So whatever the hell happens, you get your chance to express something you care about and move on.

It's aggressive and assertive and invades someone's space, but you've already taken responsibility for that and you choose some action that does not harm, an action that is consultative. And, sorry for the hysteria. I'm having an F moment.

Im going to have to agree with Kalach on this one. I think he should take some initiative and ask her out. Then he'll have an idea where he stands based on her response.

 

[Qre:us]

I have issues with men that I have been battling my whole life.

Not an excuse, just an explanation.

I could explain to you, in detail, the psychology behind my issues with men, your typical, my-dad-was-an-abusive-shithead-sob-story, but I'll spare you and me the drama.

I treat people like I want to be treated, with a caveat, I am hyper-sensitive with guys I'm in relationships with, and this hyper-sensitivity can lead to hyper-reactivity on my part.

I just don't expect guys to be nearly as hyper-sensitive as I am.

Plus some other shit, but yeah.



Sorry, I rubbed you the wrong way.

That post is hardly a summation of you, so, believe me, you didn't rub me the wrong way. A sentiment within that post did. As well, I can hardly know you, so there's that limited info too.

Thanks but no need to apologize. I most certainly am not living your life for you, and don't know the half of it, and neither am I your SO...so...you don't owe me an apology.

It was more an exercise in Fe's reaction to Fi, perhaps? Fairness regardless of who is at the other end. While Fi will say, look at the individual need, and even if it seems biased, extend the courtesy to that which subjectively "needs" it more.

I have a hard time reconciling the latter train of thought within myself.

I remember all my friends/housemates (all Fs) observing a fight between myself and our ESFP roomie, a few years back. She started to cry, and they showed her sympathy. And, I remember getting so frustrated that the one who could "cry" gets the support. Not the argument itself. I remember telling her/them, "Crying doesn't make you right."

 

[SillySapienne]

Im going to have to agree with Kalach on this one. I think he should take some initiative and ask her out. Then he'll have an idea where he stands based on her response.

He seemed so hurt/disappointed, already. :/

And, yes, I know I went all Fi presumptuous and projecting with my feedback, but it strongly rang familiar bells, and I felt the only right thing to do was tell the bloke that an ENFP being terse, less enthusiastic and less playful during the initial stages of a potentially budding relationship is a bad, bad, bad sign.

Because that is not how we would act, it just isn't. :/

But, there are exceptions, and, she could not be an ENFP, I forgot to ask how he came to the conclusion that she was.

Fuck, I'm feeling really guilty/upset now.

And I think we, no, I scared him off, and potentially with awful advice!!!

God, I'm a shit head!

uch:

 

[uumlau]

This isn't just about ENFPs being scattered ENFPs. This is also about INTJs being less than trusting by their own right.

Isn't it good/smart to be less-than-trusting, and bad to be less-than-trustable?

(the former being a positive value in all cases except when it comes at the expense of not trusting someone who is indeed worthy of being trusted, and the latter only achieving exception from being a negative value when it comes as a necessary corollary to some other positive value that somehow manages to outweigh its negativity? [in the case of ENFPs, the positive value being that of personability/enjoyability?])

And even then, wouldn't it still be greatly preferred for the ENFP to maintain the same degree of personability/enjoyability while ALSO being completely and totally trustable.

That combination might be enough to completely short circuit an INTJ's brain with lurrrve connection...

Z is exactly correct here.

In fact, I'm a very trusting person. And I watch my trust get violated over and over again (not talking just ENFPs, but people in general.) My policy is that I will trust you for the most part, but also be prepared to deal with the contingency that you break that trust.

In particular, if there is an arrangement to do an activity, and you don't show up, or you always come up with an excuse to not show up, you don't get to say that I don't trust you. I get to say that I trusted you too much. That's why we INTJs prefer an outright "no" to the all-options-open "maybe." We have other things to do in our lives than wait for you to make up your mind - or wait for you to gather the courage to say "no". (This latter half is more or less ENFP-directed.)

Perhaps the distrust you detect from the INTJs in your life is merited?

 

[SillySapienne]

It was more an exercise in Fe's reaction to Fi, perhaps? Fairness regardless of who is at the other end. While Fi will say, look at the individual need, and even if it seems biased, extend the courtesy to that which subjectively "needs" it more.

Different needs for different breeds.

But some needs are unfounded, or deeply selfish, and can therefore be disregarded.

"Crying doesn't make you right."

Crying certainly DOES NOT make you right, it just means you're emotional, and need a release.

I've cried when I've been wrong just as much as I've cried when I've been wronged.

 

[Metamorphosis]

That's why we INTJs prefer an outright "no" to the all-options-open "maybe." We have other things to do in our lives than wait for you to make up your mind - or wait for you to gather the courage to say "no". (This latter half is more or less ENFP-directed.)

I would add to your post that the above is true, regardless of how trusting or distrustful we are.