[NF] Question for NFPs. (Other NFs are welcome to give their input!)

[Virgo1987]

This aligns with my experience and observations.

I'd say I'm motivated out of principle (or my moral ideals) more than a desire to develop rapport or be viewed a certain way.

I notice many xxFJs are more about rapport building or expressing a feeling. Honestly, I do see a "selfish" side to this, as well as noticing there is more of a self-image wrapped up in it. But then, that's supposedly a 2 thing too.



I don't relate to this at all though.
It rarely makes me happy to help anyone. I have little to no emotional reward. There may be some long-term reward, as you mention, which means living up to my ideals and how that gives me a sense of fulfillment. You could say this is an inner harmony vs an outer harmony, but I don't experience any immediate payoff and thus don't feel driven emotionally.
.

This sticks out to me because a friend of mine tried to tell me once that people help others so they feel good about themselves. I remember growing really upset and saying, seriously? Because to me helping doesn't make me happy. It doesn't make me mad either -- or even annoyed (all the time), but for me it's just a natural response. Like why am I sitting here or standing here when I can just help? That's just how I see it.

I don't expect rewards or yearn to look "good". I do believe it's a decent thing to do as a human being though, so there is just moral push behind it. It's something as little as holding the door open for someone. When I see people not hold the door open it just makes me shake my head like seriously? SERIOUSLY?

 

[OrangeAppled]

This sticks out to me because a friend of mine tried to tell me once that people help others so they feel good about themselves. I remember growing really upset and saying, seriously? Because to me helping doesn't make me happy. It doesn't make me mad either -- or even annoyed (all the time), but for me it's just a natural response. Like why am I sitting here or standing here when I can just help? That's just how I see it.

I don't expect rewards or yearn to look "good". I do believe it's a decent thing to do as a human being though, so there is just moral push behind it. It's something as little as holding the door open for someone. When I see people not hold the door open it just makes me shake my head like seriously? SERIOUSLY?

This is why I loathe Ayn Rand.

Sometimes, helping/giving can annoy me if I feel like it's an obligation someone stuck on me or I see someone as capable of taking care of themselves. I don't like holiday gift-giving for this reason.

I am also oblivious half the time because I am stuck in my daydreams. So I am not a super helpful person, admittedly. If it happens to come to my attention that someone is in need and I feel equipped to help, then I may do it, but I am not actively looking for ways to help. That is admittedly something I could work on in life. It IS a kind of self-absorption, since I am caught up in my own head, but it's not a conscious dismissal of other people's needs or feelings. It is truly absent-mindedness. I also operate off a principle of people should take care of themselves if they are able to, so while lending a helping hand may seem nice, I may also think, "You have your own hands, don't you?". I guess that is what holds me back from looking for ways to help/give.

I am reminded of this quote from Tolstoy:
“I sit on a man's back choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am sorry for him and wish to lighten his load by all means possible - except by getting off his back.”

That's the best thing someone could give to me - freedom or getting off my back. Give me room to try and fail and figure it out for myself. Give me space to choose what I want and how. Since I value autonomy so highly, I don't want to step on the toes of others in that way. Accepting interdependency as a fact of human nature has been a life lesson for me.

 

[julesiscools]

When people are upset, the fact that I rarely experience their emotion - but tend to stay calm and experience empathy as a mostly mental process - can actually have a calming effect on others. I don't feel emotion in a physical way, but I am usually taking them seriously (ie intently listening), so it seems to soothe people. Other times, I may get accused of being detached because I am not "taking on" their emotion as my own.

I had a friend type me as a thinker because I don't take on the emotions of others. Do I sit, and listen, and let them vent? Absolutely. Are you going to see any other expression on my face other than my "listening intently" face? Nope. But the fact that I don't openly emote with others on a regular basis made her assume that I used thinking over feeling, which is false.

This doesn't mean I don't get disturbed by others' emotional energy (ie the reason I put headphones on in public at times), but unless I am involved, it doesn't make me mirror their anger or happiness, etc.

^ This, exactly.

....because one took my natural response of helping as negative intentions and the other excluded me from her "happy moments" in life, but reaches out when life isn't going her way.

Currently dealing with a similar situation right now. I've decided to let go for my own well-being.

-- I think it's safe to say that this isn't necessarily a Fi/Fe difference, but something Feelers in general may relate with. The difference would be the motivation.

Because to me helping doesn't make me happy. It doesn't make me mad either -- or even annoyed (all the time), but for me it's just a natural response.

Yep. My mom and I were just talking about how it's a natural response for me to help people (whatever form I think that help may come in). I'm a lot better at making sure the person wants my help than I used to be though. But I don't do it to make myself feel better, or feel good, I do it because I simply feel that if you are in a place where you can help, you should. Do I expect others to do as I do? Nope.

I am reminded of this quote from Tolstoy:
“I sit on a man's back choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am sorry for him and wish to lighten his load by all means possible - except by getting off his back.”

That's the best thing someone could give to me - freedom or getting off my back. Give me room to try and fail and figure it out for myself. Give me space to choose what I want and how. Since I value autonomy so highly, I don't want to step on the toes of others in that way. Accepting interdependency as a fact of human nature has been a life lesson for me.

 

[Yama]

My weird analogy:

Fi = virtue ethics. Focuses on being good rather than doing good. Whatever a moral person would do in any given situation is right.

Fe = Utilitarian ethics. Focuses on doing good rather than being a good person. Whatever benefits the most people is right.

I really like this.

 

[Virgo1987]

This is why I loathe Ayn Rand.

Sometimes, helping/giving can annoy me if I feel like it's an obligation someone stuck on me or I see someone as capable of taking care of themselves. I don't like holiday gift-giving for this reason.

I am also oblivious half the time because I am stuck in my daydreams. So I am not a super helpful person, admittedly. If it happens to come to my attention that someone is in need and I feel equipped to help, then I may do it, but I am not actively looking for ways to help. That is admittedly something I could work on in life. It IS a kind of self-absorption, since I am caught up in my own head, but it's not a conscious dismissal of other people's needs or feelings. It is truly absent-mindedness. I also operate off a principle of people should take care of themselves if they are able to, so while lending a helping hand may seem nice, I may also think, "You have your own hands, don't you?". I guess that is what holds me back from looking for ways to help/give.

I am reminded of this quote from Tolstoy:
“I sit on a man's back choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am sorry for him and wish to lighten his load by all means possible - except by getting off his back.”

That's the best thing someone could give to me - freedom or getting off my back. Give me room to try and fail and figure it out for myself. Give me space to choose what I want and how. Since I value autonomy so highly, I don't want to step on the toes of others in that way. Accepting interdependency as a fact of human nature has been a life lesson for me.

I have no idea who Ayn Rand is.

I understand. There's someone I work with from time to time that is very much caught up in her own world. I'm not sure if it's daydreaming or something much more serious like a lot of things going on in life.

I only grow annoyed when I have to help take care of a family member. This person is a child though and her parents are seriously without their heads screwed on correctly. I give a lot in that regard. When it isn't annoyance that hits me though, it's usually the ease of knowing that the child is as safe as can be or with more than what was available before. That was VERY hard for me to come to terms with, but this is going on 7 years later and I've realized that as hard as it is at time, she is seriously just a kid with nutty parents. It isn't her fault and while I have the rest of my week to get something done, she might need something done that particular moment.

I can understand saying "you have your own hands, don't you?". That's how my mom is towards me. But it irks me because she'll bend over backwards for other people -- usually though, those other people seriously can not help themselves in the slightest. I like it though because though I personally do not mind helping people, it's SO HARD for me to accept help from someone else. I want to do everything myself and if I can't do it, I get down about it. I'm very hard on myself.

I think as I've gotten older the reality my mom lives in where she's like "might as well do it yourself if you want it done right" kind of just sticks with me -- but with knowing that it's also knowing that some people within my life seriously can't do for themselves because they're just completely lost and it's like... okay... well, let me help them.

I'm speaking about family though and very close friends. With others it isn't the same, but at the same time I work in an Educational building so you'll see me bend down to pick up pencils and clean up a spill even though it's ENTIRELY not part of my job. My thought is "what if someone trips?" "what if someone slips?".

I do love my daydreaming though. I get away to that place a lot of time, but something always seems to knock me back into reality in the vent of something.

Happy working on it!

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I wonder if there are different angles on Fi and empathy. I know my sister has an intense kind of empathy, but it isn't the standard type of crying during sad movies or cooing at babies, etc. She has always tested INFP, but her empathy tends to be directed at whatever creature is overlooked. She can be focused and aware of any living thing, so it isn't socially oriented. She has empathy even for insects and other overlooked creatures for whom virtually no one would ever consider their feeling or experience.

I think the empathy question is a complicated one because I don't think all Fe people actually take on other people's emotions, but can filter through whatever is needed for the external system. Someone especially external in their use of Fe will tend to relate more to the actual behaviors and external manifestations of emotions, while I think some people with strong Fi will experience the more subtle, internal experience in their empathy.

One good example is a lady who comes to my work place once a week who has some sort of personality disorder. She is extremely abrasive and upsetting to most people and has even gotten kicked out of many businesses. She gets into direct conflict with the gingerbread cookie smile Fe-dom lady. There isn't much hope of understanding between them because the behavioral and emotional expressions will not ever jive.

Either because I use Ni or Ne, the abrasive lady is actually less stressful for me because she is quite blank on the inside, even when she insults me. Her motives are really simple - when she wants something she pushes and insults until she gets it. She doesn't have any complex social games, so it feels simple and direct. Also, she has almost no empathy, so she doesn't think through the pain she causes, but mostly just wants to play the best piano or get her money back. That is just one way to think about completely different approaches to empathy. It isn't always just whether you feel something or not from the outside world, but what is it that is felt? The perceptions can be extremely different.

 

[Virgo1987]

Every description I've even seen of Fe I've never related to, at all. Only because it seems like it's concerned with societal standards and values, and I honestly don't care about these things.



I try to be so careful with this, because I know so many people that don't want "help". I'm more likely to just offer it should they ever need it. My issue, I've come to realize, is that I can't discern when someone really needs that "help", or if they're taking advantage of my offer and being manipulative.

....I'm trying to figure out how to word what I mean when I say that I'm not given back what I give out. For the most part, I do not expect anyone to "give" me what I "give" them, because that's not my intention. It's when it's a +10 yr relationship/friendship, and you realize that you've given everything and they're just there when it's good for them.

What in God's name is it with 10/+10 year friendships? I keep seeing that pop up everywhere this year... maybe it's a 2016 thing?

 

[Virgo1987]

I had a friend type me as a thinker because I don't take on the emotions of others. Do I sit, and listen, and let them vent? Absolutely. Are you going to see any other expression on my face other than my "listening intently" face? Nope. But the fact that I don't openly emote with others on a regular basis made her assume that I used thinking over feeling, which is false.



^ This, exactly.



Currently dealing with a similar situation right now. I've decided to let go for my own well-being.

-- I think it's safe to say that this isn't necessarily a Fi/Fe difference, but something Feelers in general may relate with. The difference would be the motivation.



Yep. My mom and I were just talking about how it's a natural response for me to help people (whatever form I think that help may come in). I'm a lot better at making sure the person wants my help than I used to be though. But I don't do it to make myself feel better, or feel good, I do it because I simply feel that if you are in a place where you can help, you should. Do I expect others to do as I do? Nope.

Interesting conversation that must have been. I find myself talking about things like this to my mom. I remember the days when I used to ask my mom why was she nice and helpful all the time. I was a teenager then of course... and I was moody as hell. As I've gotten older the question to me now is, why isn't everyone being nice and being helpful when they can be?

I'm thinking about things on a way deeper level these days though. Like honestly -- the entire world of humanity has suffered greatly in my eyes and I'm just like why can't we all just join hands?


I do think what's frustrating is when I become the one who needs to vent or needs to say something. That's when those I allow to do it just shut me out. I feel like I'm just left on the brink of everything I need to let out and that person has to go or has to cut me short. When I'm the one that needs help or a moment of a listening ear and there's just no one. I don't expect it so much, but I think any close friendship or relationship has moments where both sides should feel like they can speak their mind.

It's a tough thing though. At the moment I do my best not to say much about what bothers me because one of the friends of mine decided to tell me that my problems didn't matter more or less. And that's just stuck in my head for the time being, mixed in with the reality that I'm usually cut short, to me it appears that this friend was right and that my problems don't matter. I know it's this friend's problem -- being incapable of hearing about others problems because she's too concerned about hers, but the reality of it that came flying out after such a long friendship leaves me with that sort of impression. It'll fade, but with time.

I guess I learnt my lesson, in less words. Not only do people take from people, but when you need a friend, they're nowhere to be found. Not always, but unfortunately, sometimes or most of the time depending on people.

 

[julesiscools]

What in God's name is it with 10/+10 year friendships? I keep seeing that pop up everywhere this year... maybe it's a 2016 thing?

I think it's safe to say that 2016 just sucks in general, so it very well could be just that.

 

[julesiscools]

At the moment I do my best not to say much about what bothers me because one of the friends of mine decided to tell me that my problems didn't matter more or less.

I'm so sorry you had a friend say this to you.

 

[erg]

Op, I see that you are typing yourself enneagram 4 now. That's interesting because I thought about mentioning the possibility, since I could relate to what you described in the OP. It certainly is not exclusive to enneagram 2's (to be honest I think a 4 is more genuinely giving than a 2 in their relationships). I think it might have to do with 4's lower connection to 2; the lower point could be what you really are at the bottom. In contrast the higher point could be what you aspire to be (a 2 would aspire to be emotionally genuine like a 4, a 4 would aspire to be a "judge").

 

[julesiscools]

Op, I see that you are typing yourself enneagram 4 now. That's interesting because I thought about mentioning the possibility, since I could relate to what you described in the OP. It certainly is not exclusive to enneagram 2's (to be honest I think a 4 is more genuinely giving than a 2 in their relationships). I think it might have to do with 4's lower connection to 2; the lower point could be what you really are at the bottom. In contrast the higher point could be what you aspire to be (a 2 would aspire to be emotionally genuine like a 4, a 4 would aspire to be a "judge").

Yeah, I did a great deal of digging into the enneagram descriptions and made a sort of check list for myself. I related to every aspect of 4 (even the negative/unhealthy aspects), as opposed to relating to only one or two aspects of a healthy 2. And if I were to specify tritype, I'm most likely a 497.

I think 4's can be more genuinely giving because it means being authentic to who they are, whereas a 2 gives in order to receive. At least, that's my interpretation.

 

[Virgo1987]

I think it's safe to say that 2016 just sucks in general, so it very well could be just that.

 

[Hypatia]

Identify the source.