[NF] NFs, how do you deal with Thinking...

[SolitaryWalker]

This was my question to you in the last thread concerning the subject...

How do you cope with this being your third or fourth function when the world forces you too often to make impersonal judgments...

 

[targobelle]

If I am trapped in Fi mode thinking isn't easily done. but if I can bounce into Ne mode I tend to be more open to my thoughts and actually allowing cognitive thought!

 

[Eileen]

I don't think the world forces me to make too many impersonal judgments at all. The world forces me to make judgments--I tend to respond to that demand by engaging the problem with my ethics first (then my logic--and often a combination of the two because it's not as if ethics and logic are mutually exclusive systems). Most of my important judgments are not going to be impersonal at all; I will have some personal stake in them or see someone else's personal stake. I think that it's a matter of how you look at the judgments you make, not anything inherent about them. I do consider many of the judgments I make to be impersonal, but I am likely to think that they aren't very important judgments.

 

[RDF]

This was my question to you in the last thread concerning the subject...

How do you cope with this being your third or fourth function when the world forces you too often to make impersonal judgments...

Personally, I believe I use my Thinking function a lot. I think most people use all their functions on a regular basis.

When we're growing up, school teaches us that there are times and places when we have to put aside subjective judgments and use the objective criteria of science, math, analysis, logic, etc. At a minimum, we're taught to respect simple organizational rules: pay attention to thermometers to determine how we dress, obey rules of the road when we drive, meet deadlines for accomplishing goals, etc. I may prefer living by internal subjective criteria, but civilization teaches us that there are many times and settings when we have to respect (or at least pay lip service to) the dictates of outside objective criteria.

In the workplace I routinely use Thinking over Feeling. If I have to promote one person out of a pool of subordinates, I know better than to promote the person who appeals to me most on a purely personal level. I'm accountable to the organization and to my boss, so I'll pass over the person I like and decide in favor of one who better meets the outside objective criteria defined by the organization and my boss.

I think the difference in Feeling and Thinking arises mostly in areas where I'm free to follow my own dictates--recreation, relationships, etc, or where I honestly have no tools or guidance as to how to determine or apply objective criteria. But even in such areas as relationships or my personal life, I often apply rules, structures, thinking judgments, etc. Precisely because I'm a Feeler, I know how slippery and changeable emotions can be. I like to be in touch with my emotions, but I routinely disregard their promptings and impose organization, structure, and self-discipline on myself (such as following diets and heath regimens, observing the rules of monogamy, using moderation when indulging pleasures, etc.). Family, friends, and acquaintances often need the same basic kinds of long-term relationship stability, rational judgment, and self-discipline from me that coworkers and bosses need from me in the workplace. I routinely tone down my emotions or even act contrary to them for the good of a relationship.

Just one more example of how pervasive Thinking can be even for Feelers: MBTI professionals have often noted that when two Feelers are in a relationship together, one will often begin to act more like a Thinker. IOW, it's basically understood that some degree of Thinking structure is needed even between two Feelers.

This example (two Feelers in a relationship) indicates that Thinking and Feeling aren't diametrically opposed. All of us tend to recognize that both functions are needed to some extent on a regular basis. So I think the dichotomy shows up more in terms of relativity (such as a Feeler taking on the role of a Thinker relative to another Feeler) rather than absolutes.

FL

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Personally, I believe I use my Thinking function a lot. I think most people use all their functions on a regular basis.

When we're growing up, school teaches us that there are times and places when we have to put aside subjective judgments and use the objective criteria of science, math, analysis, logic, etc. At a minimum, we're taught to respect simple organizational rules: pay attention to thermometers to determine how we dress, obey rules of the road when we drive, meet deadlines for accomplishing goals, etc. I may prefer living by internal subjective criteria, but civilization teaches us that there are many times and settings when we have to respect (or at least pay lip service to) the dictates of outside objective criteria.

In the workplace I routinely use Thinking over Feeling. If I have to promote one person out of a pool of subordinates, I know better than to promote the person who appeals to me most on a purely personal level. I'm accountable to the organization and to my boss, so I'll pass over the person I like and decide in favor of one who better meets the outside objective criteria defined by the organization and my boss.

I think the difference in Feeling and Thinking arises mostly in areas where I'm free to follow my own dictates--recreation, relationships, etc, or where I honestly have no tools or guidance as to how to determine or apply objective criteria. But even in such areas as relationships or my personal life, I often apply rules, structures, thinking judgments, etc. Precisely because I'm a Feeler, I know how slippery and changeable emotions can be. I like to be in touch with my emotions, but I routinely disregard their promptings and impose organization, structure, and self-discipline on myself (such as following diets and heath regimens, observing the rules of monogamy, using moderation when indulging pleasures, etc.). Family, friends, and acquaintances often need the same basic kinds of long-term relationship stability, rational judgment, and self-discipline from me that coworkers and bosses need from me in the workplace. I routinely tone down my emotions or even act contrary to them for the good of a relationship.

Just one more example of how pervasive Thinking can be even for Feelers: MBTI professionals have often noted that when two Feelers are in a relationship together, one will often begin to act more like a Thinker. IOW, it's basically understood that some degree of Thinking structure is needed even between two Feelers.

This example (two Feelers in a relationship) indicates that Thinking and Feeling aren't diametrically opposed. All of us tend to recognize that both functions are needed to some extent on a regular basis. So I think the dichotomy shows up more in terms of relativity (such as a Feeler taking on the role of a Thinker relative to another Feeler) rather than absolutes.

FL

When you build your system of values, I assume it is founded on feelings.

Do those feelings stay the same, or do they tend to be slippery?

 

[RDF]

When you build your system of values, I assume it is founded on feelings.

Do those feelings stay the same, or do they tend to be slippery?

On first glance, most Feelers would probably tell you that their F values are fairly firm. But in practice, especially for FPs, they can be quite slippery. I'll find myself flip-flopping all over both sides of a debate as I learn more about a subject over time.

Given that situation, it's almost a relief to find a good T or J analysis tool that I can import into my system of values in order to impose some structure and finality on my personal decisions. As I get older and my world gets broader, I can't spend all my time flip-flopping and emoting over everything. So I have an ever-increasing respect for T analysis and J structure. And that's been an ongoing process since I was 20 or so.

The T tools don't supplant the F values entirely. I still refer back to the F values. But the T tools provide me a quick response for dealing with issues on a real-time basis; re-evaluation with F can then come later if necessary. (If that makes sense.)

FL

 

[SolitaryWalker]

On first glance, most Feelers would probably tell you that their F values are fairly firm. But in practice, especially for FPs, they can be quite slippery. I'll find myself flip-flopping all over both sides of a debate as I learn more about a subject over time.

Given that situation, it's almost a relief to find a good T or J analysis tool that I can import into my system of values in order to impose some structure and finality on my personal decisions. As I get older and my world gets broader, I can't spend all my time flip-flopping and emoting over everything. So I have an ever-increasing respect for T analysis and J structure. And that's been an ongoing process since I was 20 or so.

The T tools don't supplant the F values entirely. I still refer back to the F values. But the T tools provide me a quick response for dealing with issues on a real-time basis; re-evaluation with F can then come later if necessary. (If that makes sense.)

FL

Let me get this straight...it could very well be the case that an average XNFP today could think the world of you and tomorrow you could become a faceless number? And all of this could happen just totally arbitrarily?

 

[RDF]

Let me get this straight...it could very well be the case that an average INFP today could think the world of you and tomorrow you could become a faceless number? And all of this could happen just totally arbitrarily?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Describe a hypothetical (or not-so-hypothetical) situation in more detail, if you can.

FL

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Describe a hypothetical (or not-so-hypothetical) situation in more detail, if you can.

FL

Suppose you've been friends with an NFP for 2 years. Then you get to the point where you're forced to part company for a year. Could it very easily be the case that you will be coming back to a very different person then you've known earlier?

Simply because their feelings about you changed for a reason that you don't understand?

 

[RDF]

Suppose you've been friends with an NFP for 2 years. Then you get to the point where you're forced to part company for a year. Could it very easily be the case that you will be coming back to a very different person then you've known earlier?

Simply because their feelings about you changed for a reason that you don't understand?

Yes, maybe. Although it's important to remember that this is happening in the context of values. IOW, the reason for the change won't be arbitrary to the NFP, though it may seem arbitrary to the other person.

I can't speak for ENFPs; as extroverts, they're more relationship-oriented so the rules may be different. But INFPs do indeed cut people off, including long-time friends. There are even threads about it over at the INFP message board. And in retrospect, even the INFPs may admit the causes were trivial.

But still, it's usually a pretty traumatic event for the INFP at the time, involving a lot of emotion and (usually) a sense that the other party has betrayed them in some manner. So I would emphasize again that it's not an arbitrary thing for the INFP.

This is where T tools can be handy. A lot of INFPs really do need to get a better handle on their emotions and learn how to moderate them for the health of long-term relationships (IMHO).

FL

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Oh, good. So you're not saying that if you have a friendship going on with an INFP..dont get too comfortable with it because it can be terminated by the INFP on a whim at anymoment..

Because this was exactly the impression that I was getting from one ENFP...

ENFPs may not cut people off like INFPs do...yet they just might silently drift away for an arbitrary reason..? Or do you think this is likely..?

I think the difference may be that INFPs are more consciously aware of the choices they make in their relationships than ENFPs because their judging function is stronger..

 

[RDF]

Oh, good. So you're not saying that if you have a friendship going on with an INFP..dont get too comfortable with it because it can be terminated by the INFP on a whim at anymoment..

Because this was exactly the impression that I was getting from one ENFP...

ENFPs may not cut people off like INFPs do...yet they just might silently drift away for an arbitrary reason..? Or do you think this is likely..?

I think the difference may be that INFPs are more consciously aware of the choices they make in their relationships than ENFPs because their judging function is stronger..

That all sounds reasonable to me. With INFPs, a cut-off tends to be rather sudden and catastrophic (to the INFP, anyway). And if you prod the INFP for the reason, he or she will likely be able to detail a list of perceived abuses or misunderstandings and then finally a straw that broke the camel's back. (And the other party can counterbalance the process of accumulation of abuses and misunderstandings fairly easily, by applying lots of positive affirmation to the relationship.)

I can't really say for sure how it works with ENFPs. But it's my perception that they tend to drift away.

It's also my perception that their closest friends will be those who meet a need or fill a hole for the ENFP. If you do those things, the ENFP will be fiercely loyal. If you're not doing those things, then you're at risk of losing the ENFP to other social players or commitments that will do those things for them. But that's just a personal impression based on limited experience with them.

FL

 

[SolitaryWalker]

That all sounds reasonable to me. With INFPs, a cut-off tends to be rather sudden and catastrophic (to the INFP, anyway). And if you prod the INFP for the reason, he or she will likely be able to detail a list of perceived abuses or misunderstandings and then finally a straw that broke the camel's back. (And the other party can counterbalance the process of accumulation of abuses and misunderstandings fairly easily, by applying lots of positive affirmation to the relationship.)

I can't really say for sure how it works with ENFPs. But it's my perception that they tend to drift away.

It's also my perception that their closest friends will be those who meet a need or fill a hole for the ENFP. If you do those things, the ENFP will be fiercely loyal. If you're not doing those things, then you're at risk of losing the ENFP to other social players or commitments that will do those things for them. But that's just a personal impression based on limited experience with them.

FL

Those were very good observations.

I think much of the same can even be said for ENTPs and ENFJ. ENTPs are more subtle because they are led by Extroverted Intuition. Extroverts tend to surround themselves by people that fill a hole in their lives and double task as their close friends. They could easily be replaced because they juggle many variables at the same time.

Yet Is, do not need this as they can get what the Es get from the outside, from within themselves.

Hence, an INFP will not drop you because something better has shown up. They dont need you like ENFPs may. They keep you around because they find you to be special as an individual, and if you are to be dropped, it will be personal, it will be because of something that you did, or perhaps that the friendship was never legitimate to begin with. As you said, perhaps the INFP discovers that the values that your friendship depended on with them have been replaced because they later were deemed undesirable by the INFP.

In short, if you ask the INFP for why they terminated you, you will get a very clear and a detailed answer. Yet with the ENFP, ENTP, and ENFJ, you probably wont, because there may not be an answer as the act may be totally arbitrary. That is, they simply found someone better and they no longer need you. As they never cherished you for who you are, just for what you gave, and in that case, you simply never evolved to the point where the INFP would start you off at---a relationship where they want you around because they deem for you to be special, and not because they have something to take from you.

 

[RDF]

In short, if you ask the INFP for why they terminated you, you will get a very clear and a detailed answer. Yet with the ENFP, ENTP, and ENFJ, you probably wont, because there may not be an answer as the act may be totally arbitrary. That is, they simply found someone better and they no longer need you. As they never cherished you for who you are, just for what you gave, and in that case, you simply never evolved to the point where the INFP would start you off at---a relationship where they want you around because they deem for you to be special, and not because they have something to take from you.

Of course, the flip side of this coin is that Extraverts will often see you for who you really are and appreciate the real you. INFPs, on the other hand, may not see who you really are. INFPs tend to project desirable characteristics onto new acquaintances (and especially new loves), and in turn this sets them up for disappointment and break-up when their new acquaintances can't live up to the ideal in the INFP's head. Thus in the long run, you may get fairer treatment from the ENFP.

In other words, you can't win for losin'.

FL

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Of course, the flip side of this coin is that Extraverts will often see you for who you really are and appreciate the real you. INFPs, on the other hand, may not see who you really are. INFPs tend to project desirable characteristics onto new acquaintances (and especially new loves), and in turn this sets them up for disappointment and break-up when their new acquaintances can't live up to the ideal in the INFP's head. Thus in the long run, you may get fairer treatment from the ENFP.

In other words, you can't win for losin'.

FL

Yet again, we still ought to conclude that if you have a friendship with an ENFP going on, dont get too comfortable with it because it can begin to evaporate at any moment, and once it starts to evaporate, there is little you could to reverse the process.

Yet if you're one of the few that the INFP considers special enough to keep coming back to, you really have to do a lot to have them disappear from your life, and there will be on qualms about the lack of clarity to the situation.

Now it all makes sense. When INFPs and INFJs told me that their relationships were stable and their system of values were solid for the most part, and when they do change, there usually is a good reason for the change. I was inclined to believe them. Yet when ENFJs and ENFPs did, I suspected for that to be unlikely. As they are just playing the game. Their inner being isnt calling the shots like with the introverts it may. Their inner being is slave to the external standard and will likely do whatever is necessary to stay in the game. Whilst the Introverts dont even need to play the game, and probably wouldnt even for their own amusement as that is difficult to reconcile with their NF ethic.

All in all, I am glad that you didnt go on to argue that the INFP values are arbitrary like I perceived those of many ENFPs to be. That would of been shocking as it is incompatible with what I've perceived for the INFPs' Fi to be on the theoretical level, as well as with what I know about the INFPs I've come across on my own. Their Fi(values, feeling-based insights..etc) seems to play as big of a role as Ti to INTPs, difficult to imagine how those wouldnt be calling the shots in something seemingly so vitally important in their lives---relationships. Would be just as shocking as for someone to suggest that INTPs dont use Thinking when dealing with impersonal problems, like ENTPs may be somewhat careless by placing Intuition ahead of it.

 

[RDF]

Now it all makes sense. When INFPs and INFJs told me that their relationships were stable and their system of values were solid for the most part, and when they do change, there usually is a good reason for the change. I was inclined to believe them. Yet when ENFJs and ENFPs did, I suspected for that to be unlikely. As they are just playing the game. Their inner being isnt calling the shots like with the introverts it may. Their inner being is slave to the external standard and will likely do whatever is necessary to stay in the game. Whilst the Introverts dont even need to play the game, and probably wouldnt even for their own amusement as that is difficult to reconcile with their NF ethic.

INFP friendships are based on an internal set of values (Fi), and that would appeal to an INTP because they have something similar going on with their Ti. But I just want to caution that ENFP friendships are pretty solid too; they just play by different rules.

Keep in mind that INFP friendships run deeper but are also more problematic. INFPs idealize their friends more, which is good at the start but can turn negative as time goes on. INFPs maintain a scorecard of pluses and minuses on the friendship, and the minuses tend to mount up as the friendship ages. And INFPs don't tend to tell you when the friendship is reaching the breaking point; they just blow up over something small one day and storm out of the room. INFPs sometimes put their friends through the gantlet.

ENFP friendships (as I picture them) are shallower in a sense, but by the same token they are more transparent; that is, at least people tend to know where they stand in their friendship with ENFPs. ENFPs have a more realistic picture of their friends, and they'll make an effort to fit you in someplace in their life where you'll interact well with their own needs and wants. As long as you remain a good fit, they'll be loyal in return and won't hold your failings against you. They don't keep a scorecard, and they don't blow up on you. If you maintain an ongoing interaction with them, you can expect some real longevity. But it's true that they are social animals: If you drift apart or go without interacting for a while, ENFPs will seek interaction elsewhere. I think you have to keep the relationship current and up to date with them; you can't just drop it and then expect to pick it back up a couple months later with the same intensity and activities as before. (And that may be a problem for INTPs who are unpredictable in their friendship habits.)

At least, that's how it seems to me.

INTPs may prefer the INFP model because it's more familiar to INTPs (IOW, it's based on introversion of the primary function) and it would allow for breaks in the relationship without necessarily losing the momentum of the friendship. But objectively speaking, ENFPs have just as much right to claim that their friendships are stable. If both sides are doing appropriate maintenance and upkeep on the ENFP friendship, then the friendship can last a lifetime and sail a smoother, straighter, and truer course than an INFP friendship.

[Edit:] As an INFP, I tend to hold individual friendships in high esteem in the short run; but I also consider friendships to be disposable and replaceable over the long term as a general rule. By contrast, ENFPs may be more casual about friendships, but with proper maintenance friendships with them can last a lifetime.

Just trying to establish some balance here. I've had good experiences with ENFPs for the most part (when friendships ended, I was usually the one to end them). We probably need an ENFP or ENFJ to weigh in with a first-hand perspective.

FL

 

[proteanmix]

Those were very good observations.

I think much of the same can even be said for ENTPs and ENFJ. ENTPs are more subtle because they are led by Extroverted Intuition. Extroverts tend to surround themselves by people that fill a hole in their lives and double task as their close friends. They could easily be replaced because they juggle many variables at the same time.

Yet Is, do not need this as they can get what the Es get from the outside, from within themselves.

Hence, an INFP will not drop you because something better has shown up. They dont need you like ENFPs may. They keep you around because they find you to be special as an individual, and if you are to be dropped, it will be personal, it will be because of something that you did, or perhaps that the friendship was never legitimate to begin with. As you said, perhaps the INFP discovers that the values that your friendship depended on with them have been replaced because they later were deemed undesirable by the INFP.

In short, if you ask the INFP for why they terminated you, you will get a very clear and a detailed answer. Yet with the ENFP, ENTP, and ENFJ, you probably wont, because there may not be an answer as the act may be totally arbitrary. That is, they simply found someone better and they no longer need you. As they never cherished you for who you are, just for what you gave, and in that case, you simply never evolved to the point where the INFP would start you off at---a relationship where they want you around because they deem for you to be special, and not because they have something to take from you.

Yet again, we still ought to conclude that if you have a friendship with an ENFP going on, dont get too comfortable with it because it can begin to evaporate at any moment, and once it starts to evaporate, there is little you could to reverse the process.

Yet if you're one of the few that the INFP considers special enough to keep coming back to, you really have to do a lot to have them disappear from your life, and there will be on qualms about the lack of clarity to the situation.

Now it all makes sense. When INFPs and INFJs told me that their relationships were stable and their system of values were solid for the most part, and when they do change, there usually is a good reason for the change. I was inclined to believe them. Yet when ENFJs and ENFPs did, I suspected for that to be unlikely. As they are just playing the game. Their inner being isnt calling the shots like with the introverts it may. Their inner being is slave to the external standard and will likely do whatever is necessary to stay in the game. Whilst the Introverts dont even need to play the game, and probably wouldnt even for their own amusement as that is difficult to reconcile with their NF ethic.

All in all, I am glad that you didnt go on to argue that the INFP values are arbitrary like I perceived those of many ENFPs to be. That would of been shocking as it is incompatible with what I've perceived for the INFPs' Fi to be on the theoretical level, as well as with what I know about the INFPs I've come across on my own. Their Fi(values, feeling-based insights..etc) seems to play as big of a role as Ti to INTPs, difficult to imagine how those wouldnt be calling the shots in something seemingly so vitally important in their lives---relationships. Would be just as shocking as for someone to suggest that INTPs dont use Thinking when dealing with impersonal problems, like ENTPs may be somewhat careless by placing Intuition ahead of it.

I don't understand how you reached these conclusions about extroverts from FLs posts. You truly are biased towards the supremacy of Fi and Ti.

Every relationship that I've terminated, I've made a point to explicitly tell them why I don't want to be around them anymore. You don't treat people like rags and toss them away when you're done with them. If anything I go to great lengths to salvage a treasured friendship. Nor am I constantly on the look out for "better" friends because then people become tools for your own amusement. How did reach the conclusion that extroverts do this? You don't seem able to accept extroverts on their own terms, just focusing on all the things they don't do according to your perception of events. What is your introversion preventing you from doing as far as the extrovert sees events?

What may seem to be replacing people is just being around different people. I don't have one set of friends that fulfills everything in me because that putting unrealistic expectations on the shoulders of true friends. You blame extroverts for being extroverts as if it's some sort of defect.

 

[Alienclock]

This was my question to you in the last thread concerning the subject...

How do you cope with this being your third or fourth function when the world forces you too often to make impersonal judgments...

I have never had to make impersonal judgments. What is the purpose of judgment if not to serve the person?

 

[targobelle]

Your comments are all rather insulting.... you have yet again generalized and made assumptions about personality types without taking into account the individual. That drives me in sane purely insane!

I have never been one to make friends easily but when I do I am loyal, I don't pass judgment and I am not solely in it for what I think they can do for me but rather how I can help them and do for them.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Blah blah....

Just another Fe talking...