• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

The Murder of George Floyd & Subsequent Protests/Riots

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,044
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
There'd be a Shelter in Place SMS sent out to people if that were the case, I'd think.


I agree, this is a chaotic, dangerous situation, but it's moments like the one I linked that make people further distrust the police & military to actually serve and protect them as they should. Which also makes their jobs all the more dangerous right now.
There was a curfew in place. So the primary issue is whether or not hanging with friends on the porch technically fulfills curfew. The porch is technically part of the house so people argue, yes. In this context, this house was in the Whittier Neighborhood according to her twitter page, which is west of I35W and south of I94, an epicenter of the rioting. The National Guard was actually acting within the law in this case, but the population didn't understand what the curfew entails.

Curfew Order said:
Can I be outside my house (on my property) after 8 p.m. and before 6 a.m.?
Yes. You can be on your porch, yard, patio, etc., but if a law enforcement officer or other public safety official asks you to go inside, or take any other action, you must follow the instruction.
Full link:
Multi-Agency Command Center -
Frequently Asked Questions about the Curfew


Curfew order
Twin Cities, Metro Area Counties Instill Curfews This Weekend Amid Unrest – WCCO | CBS Minnesota
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,048
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Amanda Palmer posted this quote this morning and I found it thought provoking. I know people who have a distinct intolerance for conversations about racism, like it feels to them it's already discussed ad nauseaum and they get agitated if it's happening in earshot. It's one thing to not feel interested and simply tune it out, it's another to get agitated or angry - and I can't help but suspect the latter belies implicit racism that a person can't bear owning; either because it's runs contrary to their self-image or because the task of removing it is so daunting (or both, and/or other reasons as well - there's a weird reaction in general that privileged folks have when their privilege is pointed out, there's often a distinct intolerance to hearing about it and dogged unwillingness to accept there's any truth in it). But anyway, I like the way this quote gives weight to how daunting the task is and how well it clarifies that it isn't about concious judgement.

The problem is that white people see racism as conscious hate, when racism is bigger than that. Racism is a complex system of social and political levers and pulleys set up generations ago to continue working on the behalf of whites at other people’s expense, whether whites know/like it or not. Racism is an insidious cultural disease. It is so insidious that it doesn’t care if you are a white person who likes black people; it’s still going to find a way to infect how you deal with people who don’t look like you. Yes, racism looks like hate, but hate is just one manifestation. Privilege is another. Access is another. Ignorance is another. Apathy is another. And so on. So while I agree with people who say no one is born racist, it remains a powerful system that we’re immediately born into. It’s like being born into air: you take it in as soon as you breathe. It’s not a cold that you can get over. There is no anti-racist certification class. It’s a set of socioeconomic traps and cultural values that are fired up every time we interact with the world. It is a thing you have to keep scooping out of the boat of your life to keep from drowning in it. I know it’s hard work, but it’s the price you pay for owning everything.

- Scott Woods​
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,923
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Amanda Palmer posted this quote this morning and I found it thought provoking. I know people who have a distinct intolerance for conversations about racism, like it feels to them it's already discussed ad nauseaum and they get agitated if it's happening in earshot. It's one thing to not feel interested and simply tune it out, it's another to get agitated or angry - and I can't help but suspect the latter belies implicit racism that a person can't bear owning; either because it's runs contrary to their self-image or because the task of removing it is so daunting (or both, and/or other reasons as well - there's a weird reaction in general that privileged folks have when their privilege is pointed out, there's often a distinct intolerance to hearing about it and dogged unwillingness to accept there's any truth in it). But anyway, I like the way this quote gives weight to how daunting the task is and how well it clarifies that it isn't about concious judgement.

The problem is that white people see racism as conscious hate, when racism is bigger than that. Racism is a complex system of social and political levers and pulleys set up generations ago to continue working on the behalf of whites at other people’s expense, whether whites know/like it or not. Racism is an insidious cultural disease. It is so insidious that it doesn’t care if you are a white person who likes black people; it’s still going to find a way to infect how you deal with people who don’t look like you. Yes, racism looks like hate, but hate is just one manifestation. Privilege is another. Access is another. Ignorance is another. Apathy is another. And so on. So while I agree with people who say no one is born racist, it remains a powerful system that we’re immediately born into. It’s like being born into air: you take it in as soon as you breathe. It’s not a cold that you can get over. There is no anti-racist certification class. It’s a set of socioeconomic traps and cultural values that are fired up every time we interact with the world. It is a thing you have to keep scooping out of the boat of your life to keep from drowning in it. I know it’s hard work, but it’s the price you pay for owning everything.

- Scott Woods​

Every time I see or hear an agitated/angry response to anything related to racism, I know it's a conversation that needs to continue. Because people who are anti-racist do not get agitated or angry at these conversations. The fact that they are willing to listen when someone tells them they are being hurt and take that seriously is why they are not racists to begin with.

But to say there is no systemic racism, that most laws were not written by white people to benefit white people, that the privilege and opportunity afforded to white people simply because of the color of their skin, are myths or lies or fake news, that shows me all I need to know. And they know they're fighting a battle they will lose in the end. Social progression eventually wins 100% of the time. It is a weird reaction and it's all fear and paranoia but what it really amplifies is the privilege they believe they have earned and they believe they should be granted to them by you and me. For being white.

The other thing some white people need to get a solid grasp of is that - not all white people - trope is tired and old. The anti-racist white people already know they're not included in a black person's rant about racist white people.
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,923
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Such brave warriors for social justice.

Woman Beaten In Broad Daylight By Rioters, Husband Pleads For Them To Stop *WARNING: GRAPHIC* – Concealed Nation

"Totally understandable behavior." Let's ignore this and pretend to have a civil conversation about race instead.

Wow you come running when someone is talking about racist white people. ^^ Here's that agitated/angry response.

Moment cop kicks George Floyd protester on the ground 'after pepper-spraying her' | Metro News

Maced in the face then kicked while on the ground. By cops.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,048
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Every time I see or hear an agitated/angry response to anything related to racism, I know it's a conversation that needs to continue. Because people who are anti-racist do not get agitated or angry at these conversations. The fact that they are willing to listen when someone tells them they are being hurt and take that seriously is why they are not racists to begin with.

But to say there is no systemic racism, that most laws were not written by white people to benefit white people, that the privilege and opportunity afforded to white people simply because of the color of their skin, are myths or lies or fake news, that shows me all I need to know. And they know they're fighting a battle they will lose in the end. Social progression eventually wins 100% of the time. It is a weird reaction and it's all fear and paranoia but what it really amplifies is the privilege they believe they have earned and they believe they should be granted to them by you and me. For being white.

The other thing some white people need to get a solid grasp of is that - not all white people - trope is tired and old. The anti-racist white people already know they're not included in a black person's rant about racist white people.

Exactly.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,044
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Amanda Palmer posted this quote this morning and I found it thought provoking. I know people who have a distinct intolerance for conversations about racism, like it feels to them it's already discussed ad nauseaum and they get agitated if it's happening in earshot. It's one thing to not feel interested and simply tune it out, it's another to get agitated or angry - and I can't help but suspect the latter belies implicit racism that a person can't bear owning; either because it's runs contrary to their self-image or because the task of removing it is so daunting (or both, and/or other reasons as well - there's a weird reaction in general that privileged folks have when their privilege is pointed out, there's often a distinct intolerance to hearing about it and dogged unwillingness to accept there's any truth in it). But anyway, I like the way this quote gives weight to how daunting the task is and how well it clarifies that it isn't about concious judgement.

The problem is that white people see racism as conscious hate, when racism is bigger than that. Racism is a complex system of social and political levers and pulleys set up generations ago to continue working on the behalf of whites at other people’s expense, whether whites know/like it or not. Racism is an insidious cultural disease. It is so insidious that it doesn’t care if you are a white person who likes black people; it’s still going to find a way to infect how you deal with people who don’t look like you. Yes, racism looks like hate, but hate is just one manifestation. Privilege is another. Access is another. Ignorance is another. Apathy is another. And so on. So while I agree with people who say no one is born racist, it remains a powerful system that we’re immediately born into. It’s like being born into air: you take it in as soon as you breathe. It’s not a cold that you can get over. There is no anti-racist certification class. It’s a set of socioeconomic traps and cultural values that are fired up every time we interact with the world. It is a thing you have to keep scooping out of the boat of your life to keep from drowning in it. I know it’s hard work, but it’s the price you pay for owning everything.

- Scott Woods​
Years ago I was in a multicultural counseling class and we discussed the issue of racism. It was really helpful for me to understand this deeper dynamic. Holding a personal value to reject racism is the beginning, the first step, but not the end of the process. It takes more to not make racist choices and behaviors. It is painful to have to look at oneself and see that ones own assumptions can be distorted, flawed, unfair, and at times unjust.

One big issue with privilege is that a lot of the times it has happened, we aren't even aware of it because it flows along with the assumptions. I have benefitted from racial privilege, but likely most of the time, I wasn't even conscious of it happening. Applications, committees, certificates, decisions, etc. that looked like normal process to me could have been different if I had belonged to a different demographic. Also, the reality is that I have had emotionally connected relationship with people who had racist attitudes. This also happened during my developmental years and so it would be naive and idealistic to think none of my assumptions are shaped by that.

I've been trying to think about the defensiveness when these unconscious expressions of racism are pointed out. I have the capacity to feel defensive, and I've seen friends who are good people feel defensive. I think it helps to understand this is a process and that racism is like a disease. Having racist influences is not the same as making deliberate racist choices, being "racist". I've been trying to think of ways to help bridge these gaps.

People are also resistant to the idea of privilege, especially if they have had a lot of pain in their lives. I think there is a way that culture in general, perhaps even connected with Caucasian ethnicities, can already be dismissive of pain. Pain is vulnerability, so there can be a way that a dominant culture in power rejects all vulnerability, including when it happens among those included in its demographic. It is easy to get defensive with the word 'privilege' when a person already feels that the suffering of their lives goes unacknowledged. I'd like to find more ways to approach this dialog in a way that prevents assumptions of dismissal for everyone involved. For example, I know people struggling with feeling defensive about some of these issues who are currently being triggered by the violence because they had a family member murdered. That's a serious level of personal pain that also needs to be acknowledged in the discussion. People with very serious health issues and chronic pain often start with a foundation of dismissal, and so that pain needs to be acknowledged. Starting with the feeling of dismissal can cause a defensive response to the idea of privilege, even if both processes are indeed present in a person's life. The pain of being on the disenfranchised end of racism is a serious level of pain that has long been too easy for those with privilege to dismiss.

For those of us who have experienced at least one form of societal privilege, but still have experienced dismissal, I'd like to find a way to tap into that feeling of dismissal to create empathy for the racially marginalized demographics instead of experiencing that word 'privilege' as a sort of complete dismissal of personal pain.
 

anticlimatic

Permabanned
Joined
Oct 17, 2013
Messages
3,299
MBTI Type
INTP
Wow you come running when someone is talking about racist white people. ^^ Here's that agitated/angry response. Moment cop kicks George Floyd protester on the ground 'after pepper-spraying her' | Metro News Maced in the face then kicked while on the ground. By cops.
Anyone who doesn't get agitated or angry watching a group of men beat a woman half their size for trying to defend her livelihood is trash.

You people can try to blame imaginary problems like systemic racism on the riots, but when all is said and done this abhorrent spectacle is on YOU. The rubber has finally hit the road on your toxic identity politics. Good luck dodging the accountability thats coming your way.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,048
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Holding a personal value to reject racism is the beginning, the first step, but not the end of the process.

Yeah, I love the "it is a thing you have to keep scooping out of the boat" part of that quote. It isn't a conscious one-time decision so much as an ongoing, background game of Whack-a-mole.

People are also resistant to the idea of privilege, especially if they have had a lot of pain in their lives. I think there is a way that culture in general, perhaps even connected with Caucasian ethnicities, can already be dismissive of pain. Pain is vulnerability, so there can be a way that a dominant culture in power rejects all vulnerability, including when it happens among those included in its demographic. It is easy to get defensive with the word 'privilege' when a person already feels that the suffering of their lives goes unacknowledged. I'd like to find more ways to approach this dialog in a way that prevents assumptions of dismissal for everyone involved. For example, I know people struggling with feeling defensive about some of these issues who are currently being triggered by the violence because they had a family member murdered. That's a serious level of personal pain that also needs to be acknowledged in the discussion. People with very serious health issues and chronic pain often start with a foundation of dismissal, and so that pain needs to be acknowledged. Starting with the feeling of dismissal can cause a defensive response to the idea of privilege, even if both processes are indeed present in a person's life. The pain of being on the disenfranchised end of racism is a serious level of pain that has long been too easy for those with privilege to dismiss.

For those of us who have experienced at least one form of societal privilege, but still have experienced dismissal, I'd like to find a way to tap into that feeling of dismissal to create empathy for the racially marginalized demographics instead of experiencing that word 'privilege' as a sort of complete dismissal of personal pain.

I'm torn on the reaction of people who (for example) perceive 'less privileged' people as wanting 'free stuff' whenever there's talk of leveling the playing field. Or, more germane to this thread: when the topic of reparations is treated like a bunch of people wanting 'free stuff' because of how their ancestors were treated. That just looks like oafish projection to me, not defensive reactions from feeling dismissed - although maybe there's more of what you describe at play there that I'm just not seeing. (And I absolutely agree with what you're saying where mutual dismissiveness is actually happening).
 

Doctor Cringelord

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Messages
20,606
MBTI Type
I
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
privilege isn't black-and-white (no pun intended) or a zero sum game.

a poor white person has less privilege than a rich white person who is friends with the judge and the DA. That doesn't mean the poor white person doesn't enjoy some privileges of their own. Having suffered or had to work hard in one's life is also not an indicator that someone lacks privilege. They are conflating two different metrics when they use that rationale to argue against the existence of white privilege

Despite some flaws in their philosophy, the intersectionalists make some good points about the complexity of privilege.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Anyone who doesn't get agitated or angry watching a group of men beat a woman half their size for trying to defend her livelihood is trash.

You people can try to blame imaginary problems like systemic racism on the riots, but when all is said and done this abhorrent spectacle is on YOU. The rubber has finally hit the road on your toxic identity politics. Good luck dodging the accountability thats coming your way.


Man are you lucky I don't own this place.
 

Luminous

༻✧✧༺
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
10,170
MBTI Type
Iᑎᖴᑭ
Enneagram
952
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
101700373_3489613494384677_2482126080702414848_o.jpg
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,048
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
privilege isn't black-and-white (no pun intended) or a zero sum game.

a poor white person has less privilege than a rich white person who is friends with the judge and the DA. That doesn't mean the poor white person doesn't enjoy some privileges of their own. Having suffered or had to work hard in one's life is also not an indicator that someone lacks privilege. They are conflating two different metrics when they use that rationale to argue against the existence of white privilege

Despite some flaws in their philosophy, the intersectionalists make some good points about the complexity of privilege.

I would think all of this goes without saying, it's all incredibly relative (even a family in abject poverty can have the privilege of a more loving environment than the average middle class home).

At the same time, I'm not sure it's possible to say that I've never benefitted from being white in this country - if I think I haven't, that probably just means I'm not aware of how much is true. (In other words, though it's relative and there are thousands of kinds of 'privilege' - I think it's indisputable that whitey's got better odds of winning the privilege lottery).
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
19,648
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
At least it's not too late for you to own the riots in all these democrat run cities.

You need to stop acting hysterical and start being rational. I get it, you're scared. The smell from the pissing pants in 2016 was already stinnking up the place, and now feces are being added to the mix. Learn some control. You know who else lets their emotions determine their reaction to things? Rioters. Stop acting like you're better than them when you're not. You'd support the break out of a civil war just because you're scared (as I'd discussed earlier). Do you really think things will become more peaceful if Trump brings in the military? Stop being an emotional wreck and try thinking for a change.

If a civil war breaks out, it is on you for voting for a baby. Riots might still be going on anyway, but I hardly think a giant baby is the best person to deal with them.
 
Top