Good Taste and Vulgarity

[miss fortune]

Or Chaucer or Mozart..... Not to mention visual art

 

[prplchknz]

if you have to judge someone low brow tastes to make your self feel better about your frou ones or automatically abhor mass culture stuff without giving it a chance you're not as great as you think. like what your like not because of its status like mcdonalds chicken nuggets? great me too like 50 dollar rare steak from a high class place? same

but i hate salmon, and aspargus
i hate grits and canned tuna

the point is i like what i like because i like it and not because of its status.

 

[geedoenfj]

I think I'm a kind of person who enjoys everything that touches my heart and inspires me, I don't pay a very close attention to the high and vulgarity as long as it suits my standards and taste, I have a pretty refined taste though..

 

[Cygnus]

I wonder if the OP realizes nobody on this forum has any serious investment in MBTI anymore.

 

[Mole]

Good Taste and Life, Vulgarity and Death

It is good to see so many interested in good taste and vulgarity.

Shakespeare is a good example as he was very well educated in a Grammar School as were many of his contemporaries. He received a rigorous classic eduction in Ancient Greek and Latin, and the riches of Ancient Greek were taught to him through the Renaissance, the re-birth of Ancient Greek culture in mathematics, art, sculpture, philosophy, literature, and in the practice of war. Shakespeare was also taught the cultural riches of France and Italy.

And what is amazing to us today is that so many of his contemporaries also received a Grammar School education.

Unfortunately we live in an Age of Resentiment where we take perverse delight in tarnishing the very best with vulgarity. It is so familiar, we take it for granted. But when we tarnish the very best, we tarnish ourselves.

But why do we wish to drag others down to our own level? Probably out of sheer conformity. As we see others doing it, we follow suit in order to belong, in order to be cool.

And unfortunately there is an evil side to vulgarity. It is the desire to destroy what is good. Satan in Paradise Lost tells us he would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven.

And we see this today in the modern world as the Islamic State destroys the priceless antiquities of ancient world, and we see the Islamic State replacing the enjoyment of the young at a Rock concert with death, and killing those enjoying the company of each other over a meal in a restaurant.

The ultimate aim of vulgarity is to replace enjoyment, love and life with death.

 

[Mole]

Tell me more about this Psychometrics. Where would you start with learning about it?

The Psychology Department of an reputable university will teach Psychometrics. If you wish to explore it yourself, go to the university library catalogue and you will find many books on Psychometrics. If you find you are developing an interest in Psychometrics make an appointment to talk to the Head of the Psychology School about Psychometrics. I am sure they would be delighted to discuss Psychometrics with you.

And tell them Mole sent you.

 

[EcK]

Interestingly, a study has shown that cursing a lot, and using a lot of vulgarity is a sign that an individual is trustworthy and gives no bullshit. Sadly, the study is singular and doesn't hold much.

Nevertheless, I've seen this to be pretty true throughout my life. I also curse like a fucking sailor and give no shits either (granted, I try to temper it somewhat on the forums and in formal company). Left standards though I swear ALL the time. So long as context is taken into play, vulgarity isn't a problem, and quite a lot of people enjoy it. It doesn't make them bad or unrefined.

Also, I don't see people taking these sort of "critques" as a personal critisism. People are MUCH more reasonable than you give them credit for. Further, defining "good and bad taste" is not something that can universally or cleanly be done, due to too much subjectivity.

That's an awesome study.
I actually never thought of that

"You can fuckin' trust me, I'm a fuckin' honest man mam"

 

[Coriolis]

First off, the idea high brow culture can only be enjoyed by the educated is elitist rubbish. Perhaps you could make a case that only those with a deep comprehensive knowledge of a piece of art can appreciate it. Just as only a talented pianist can really enjoy Chopin's piano concertos. I don't agree with that, but there's an argument to be made.

It all depends on how you define "enjoy". IME, enjoyment is a very subjective and personal matter. I can easily see how the enjoyment a completely uneducated, uncultured person might get from hearing Chopin could exceed that of a music scholar with all his theoretical and historical knowledge. Sort of like the difference between being to explain why rainbows are made, and simply appreciating the beauty of one.

Secondly, just because something is vulgar doesn't mean it's necessarily low brow trash. There are plenty of examples of vulgar pop culture which are deep, provocative and can give profound insight into the human condition. And there exist many tasteful, refined pieces which are intellectually bankrupt. I studied English Literature at college and the amount of empty, pompous, but tasteful poetry could fill library after library.

We should remember that what we consider "high culture" represents the best of its day. It has survived the test of time and is still enjoyed. In the days of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven, there was plenty of mediocre and even bad music, bad enough that it had no staying power. We just can't predict which of today's artistic creations will similarly stand the test of time to become tomorrow's classics.

 

[Proctor]

We should remember that what we consider "high culture" represents the best of its day. It has survived the test of time and is still enjoyed. In the days of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven, there was plenty of mediocre and even bad music, bad enough that it had no staying power. We just can't predict which of today's artistic creations will similarly stand the test of time to become tomorrow's classics.

Hm, I don't entirely agree with your interpretation of high culture. You say it's "the best of it's day", but who judges that? Is it just a matter of staying power? If the pop music of today is still popular in a hundred years, does that imply it must be high culture? I've read numerous works that I would consider masterpieces, but I doubt they'll be considered so highly in the future. Partly because they belong to genres which aren't all that respected, and partly because they're difficult to penetrate. They might require a strong grasp of quantum mechanics or an understanding of the shifting dynamics in a philosophical school.

Certainly there's many great works which are still appreciated today, but there also plenty of (IMO) second rate stuff that's still regarded highly. And I imagine there's quite a few worthy pieces of art which for one reason or another have faded from history.

 

[Coriolis]

Hm, I don't entirely agree with your interpretation of high culture. You say it's "the best of it's day", but who judges that? Is it just a matter of staying power? If the pop music of today is still popular in a hundred years, does that imply it must be high culture? I've read numerous works that I would consider masterpieces, but I doubt they'll be considered so highly in the future. Partly because they belong to genres which aren't all that respected, and partly because they're difficult to penetrate. They might require a strong grasp of quantum mechanics or an understanding of the shifting dynamics in a philosophical school.

Certainly there's many great works which are still appreciated today, but there also plenty of (IMO) second rate stuff that's still regarded highly. And I imagine there's quite a few worthy pieces of art which for one reason or another have faded from history.

Yes, in the sense that culture is defined by its effect on audiences rather than some internal criteria divorced from how it is received and appreciated. An argument can certainly be made that some pieces have greater intrinsic value than others based on their structure and composition. If no one likes it, though, and the only people it impresses are scholars of that particular medium, it seems more of an academic exercise than a part of culture on any level. This all derives from the inherently subjective appeal of artistic work, to include music, literature, and now film.

 

[Proctor]

Yes, in the sense that culture is defined by its effect on audiences rather than some internal criteria divorced from how it is received and appreciated. An argument can certainly be made that some pieces have greater intrinsic value than others based on their structure and composition. If no one likes it, though, and the only people it impresses are scholars of that particular medium, it seems more of an academic exercise than a part of culture on any level. This all derives from the inherently subjective appeal of artistic work, to include music, literature, and now film.

I didn't realize that it was just a matter of longevity. So if even the most trite, simplistic nursery rhyme was still considered highly a century in the future, it would be deemed high culture?

 

[Olm the Water King]

Yes, in the sense that culture is defined by its effect on audiences rather than some internal criteria divorced from how it is received and appreciated. An argument can certainly be made that some pieces have greater intrinsic value than others based on their structure and composition. If no one likes it, though, and the only people it impresses are scholars of that particular medium, it seems more of an academic exercise than a part of culture on any level.

Hmm by that logic, any written literature in societies where only a small minority could read was/is non-cultural.

 

[miss fortune]

something about anyone judging what constitutes as culture and what constitutes as vulgarity always strikes me along the lines of someone complaining that the plebs just aren't "our type of people"... entertainment is that which we find entertaining, whether you approve or disapprove of it

there's got to be a reason that we've still got a lot of bawdy entertainment around and available from earlier eras... including quite a bit from sources that are generally rather well regarded

 

[Mole]

something about anyone judging what constitutes as culture and what constitutes as vulgarity always strikes me along the lines of someone complaining that the plebs just aren't "our type of people"... entertainment is that which we find entertaining, whether you approve or disapprove of it

there's got to be a reason that we've still got a lot of bawdy entertainment around and available from earlier eras... including quite a bit from sources that are generally rather well regarded

Good taste means a good appetite. And a good appetite nourishes us. So good taste leads us in a psychologically healthy direction.

The bad taste of vulgarity actually tastes bad, ruins our appetite, fails to nourish us, and leads us in a psychologically damaging direction.

 

[miss fortune]

Good taste means a good appetite. And a good appetite nourishes us. So good taste leads us in a psychologically healthy direction.

The bad taste of vulgarity actually tastes bad, ruins our appetite, fails to nourish us, and leads us in a psychologically damaging direction.

no

 

[Mole]

Ressentiment and Vulgarity

Really vulgarity is begging the question. Why would a whole popular culture celebrate and defend vulgarity? Why would a whole popular culture systematically damage its members by making vulgarity cool and acceptable?

It's plain that popular culture has a perverse and partly hidden desire to psychologically harm its members through reducing their dignity.

This perverse desire to do harm is called ressentiment.

The term was put to good use by Max Scheler in his book Ressentiment, published in 1912, and later suppressed by the Nazis.

Currently of great import as a term widely used in psychology and existentialism, ressentiment is viewed as an influential force for the creation of identities, moral frameworks and value systems.

And it is the ugliness of ressentiment that fuels the ugliness of popular vulgarity.

Ressentiment makes vulgarity cool.

 

[ceecee]

Good taste means a good appetite. And a good appetite nourishes us. So good taste leads us in a psychologically healthy direction.

The bad taste of vulgarity actually tastes bad, ruins our appetite, fails to nourish us, and leads us in a psychologically damaging direction.

I might be a world famous chef but I still want a greasy spoon burger from time to time. And I won't tolerate anyone dictating when, how or where I eat that terrible for me, yet delicious burger.

 

[Mole]

no

I have offered a time honoured psychological explanation of how we damage ourselves individually and socially.

We only have to look around us, even on Typology Central, to see the individual and social damage we inflict.

Such damage is begging for an explanation. And the book, Ressentiment, by Max Scheler, published in 1912, gives us an explanation that is both profound and accurate.

The first step by those in the grip of ressentiment is to trivialise - to trivialise the explanation and to trivialise the individual.

We see unhappiness all around us and we have a deep urge to perpetuate unhappiness, and deeply resist bringing this perverse urge out into the light of evidence and reason.

 

[á´…eparted]

I have offered a time honoured psychological explanation of how we damage ourselves individually and socially.

We only have to look around us, even on Typology Central, to see the individual and social damage we inflict.

Such damage is begging for an explanation. And the book, Ressentiment, by Max Scheler, published in 1912, gives us an explanation that is both profound and accurate.

The first step by those in the grip of ressentiment is to trivialise - to trivialise the explanation and to trivialise the individual.

We see unhappiness all around us and we have a deep urge to perpetuate unhappiness, and deeply resist bringing this perverse urge out into the light of evidence and reason.

HA! It's you that is doing the trivialization, by trying to define and say what's good and what's not for everyone. You've completely ignorged ALL of the points everyone has said saying that vulgarity isn't a problem, and that "good and bad taste" is a personal thing.

Further, a succinct "no", is a perfectly reasonable response considering how round about and passive aggressive you're responses are.

 

[Mole]

I might be a world famous chef but I still want a greasy spoon burger from time to time. And I won't tolerate anyone dictating when, how or where I eat that terrible for me, yet delicious burger.

Gosh, I won't tolerate anyone dictating to me, I am going to do what I want, when, how and where I like. I am a narcissist. And I become hysteric in the face of reality, evidence and reason.