Patrick Stewart will reprise his role as Jean-Luc Picard

[Doctor Cringelord]

The first episode was okay but I'll await the next episodes to decide if I'll continue watching it. If the tone remains dark and sadly nostalgic, I'm out since there's no wonder. I'm sick to death of dystopian themes.

There's a great quote from the movie Insurrection where Picard, obviously weary, is at a diplomatic function and says to his crewmates (might be paraphrasing), "remember when we used to be explorers?"

I never expected a TNG 2.0, but I had hoped that the exploratory spirit would at least find its way into this new show. I mean it's early, maybe all of this is just world building and they'll get to that point where that sense of awe and wonder and that exploratory spirit takes center stage again. I'm just not holding my breath.

While the earlier seasons of TNG were kind of choppy and crappy, one thing I did like about them was that they dealt more with exploration and the unknown, while the later seasons gradually went more in a direction toward galactic politics and peacekeeping sort of stuff. Again, I'm all for topical themes and cleverly written stories that hold a mirror to our real life world (all great sci-fi should do this), but I think the most interesting way to do that in Trek is through the lens of explorers as they encounter new worlds and learn to deal with societies that have different mores and customs. This is where The Orville has outdone Discovery, and by the looks of it, may outdo Picard.


I actually prefer a lot of later Voyager episodes to later TNG episodes. Blasphemy maybe, but Voyager understood how to balance the wonder of exploring the unknown with examination of current events and issues.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

There's a great quote from the movie Insurrection where Picard, obviously weary, is at a diplomatic function and says to his crewmates (might be paraphrasing), "remember when we used to be explorers?"

I never expected a TNG 2.0, but I had hoped that the exploratory spirit would at least find its way into this new show. I mean it's early, maybe all of this is just world building and they'll get to that point where that sense of awe and wonder and that exploratory spirit takes center stage again. I'm just not holding my breath.

While the earlier seasons of TNG were kind of choppy and crappy, one thing I did like about them was that they dealt more with exploration and the unknown, while the later seasons gradually went more in a direction toward galactic politics and peacekeeping sort of stuff. Again, I'm all for topical themes and cleverly written stories that hold a mirror to our real life world (all great sci-fi should do this), but I think the most interesting way to do that in Trek is through the lens of explorers as they encounter new worlds and learn to deal with societies that have different mores and customs. This is where The Orville has outdone Discovery, and by the looks of it, may outdo Picard.


I actually prefer a lot of later Voyager episodes to later TNG episodes. Blasphemy maybe, but Voyager understood how to balance the wonder of exploring the unknown with examination of current events and issues.

you'll like the "what about the men" planet in Episode 1.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

At one point, Picard turns to the camera and says "I left Starfleet because of toxic masculinity", in response to an event where starfleet refused to install milkshake cannons on the enterprise.

There's also a new race of enemy aliens whose battle cry is "What about the men?"

I know you're teasing me with this post but I found it pretty amusing and it would be a great basis for a parody/satire series.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

you'll like the "what about the men" planet in Episode 1.

I like the part where all the male crew stop shaving because Admiral Gillette made a PSA that ruffled their feathers. Captain Stronglady then has to get a subscription to Dollar Shave Club when their beards start getting too unkempt.

EDIT: Orville has this planet. The Moclans. Bortus' whole species is basically a what about the men race. O

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I like the part where all the male crew stop shaving because Admiral Gillette made a PSA that ruffled their feathers. Captain Stronglady then has to get a subscription to Dollar Shave Club when their beards start getting too unkempt.

EDIT: Orville has this planet. The Moclans. Bortus' whole species is basically a what about the men race. O

Really?

I also found this which is kind of amusing:

Heterosexuality is uncommon but prevalent in Moclan males. However, attraction to females is strictly forbidden in Moclan society by "a lifetime of imprisonment."[12] Heterosexual males, such as Locar, closely guard their sexual proclivity from public knowledge. The "shame" of heterosexuality is borne by the family as well.

 

[rav3n]

There's a great quote from the movie Insurrection where Picard, obviously weary, is at a diplomatic function and says to his crewmates (might be paraphrasing), "remember when we used to be explorers?"

I never expected a TNG 2.0, but I had hoped that the exploratory spirit would at least find its way into this new show. I mean it's early, maybe all of this is just world building and they'll get to that point where that sense of awe and wonder and that exploratory spirit takes center stage again. I'm just not holding my breath.

While the earlier seasons of TNG were kind of choppy and crappy, one thing I did like about them was that they dealt more with exploration and the unknown, while the later seasons gradually went more in a direction toward galactic politics and peacekeeping sort of stuff. Again, I'm all for topical themes and cleverly written stories that hold a mirror to our real life world (all great sci-fi should do this), but I think the most interesting way to do that in Trek is through the lens of explorers as they encounter new worlds and learn to deal with societies that have different mores and customs. This is where The Orville has outdone Discovery, and by the looks of it, may outdo Picard.


I actually prefer a lot of later Voyager episodes to later TNG episodes. Blasphemy maybe, but Voyager understood how to balance the wonder of exploring the unknown with examination of current events and issues.

Yeah, the exploration aspect and open mindedness were integral to ST. As far as sci fi and examining political climates and current events, ST applied diplomatic solutions whenever possible (TNG, Voyageur and DS9) without harping on right/wrong or good/bad.

TNG and Voyageur are my two fave series in the ST universe but they're moderately different perspectives. With this in mind, I have difficulty comparing them, simply watching and enjoying since to analyze, can drop me out of the suspension of disbelief.

 

[The Cat]

My favorites are DS9 aqnd Enterprise. Enterprise may have beat out DS9 if it had been the proper seven seasons instead of an early surprise cancel after 5. -_-

 

[Totenkindly]

I subbed to CBS and watched it yesterday with the wife on her lunch break (I was home yesterday dealing with a sinus bug).

Overall, I loved it.

1) I loved the segments between Picard and Data. You could tell Picard is haunted by Data's death at the end of Nemesis and the emotional weight of these scenes of palpable.
2) I like the direction of Starfleet turning away from it's values and it being something Picard was outraged enough by that he resigned. I like that Picard is more or less still the same character that he was before but the world has gotten darker around him so now he stands out like a lighthouse of the conscience of the world.
3) Romulan Reclamation base inside a derelic Borg cube!?!?! I look forward to the explanation about whats happening here.

Overall, I loved it. It was better than what I wanted.

I just watched it tonight.

I liked it enough to keep watching. I liked it better than the first season of Discovery. I like how it's a tight small story right now, focused on Picard and not really jumping all over the place like the ensemble stories we're used to with ST series. It still feels like STTNG but more complex/nuanced as it goes -- it's got more sensibilities from where TV series are nowadays rather than back in the 90's.

I forgot how much I missed Data. I guess out of all the TNG cast, I identified most with him even though I usually found something in everyone I appreciated. I got choked up seeing him on screen again, it was a reaction I was not expecting.

I'm not really sure where it's going yet, but yeah, I noted the things you mentioned in your spoiler as well. Since it IS focused on Picard's POV, it allows for a deeper dig into his emotional subjective experience. I also liked the fact that -- even though he was never a Kirk in terms of physical ability -- he's years older now and out of practice and it really shows in terms of his limited endurance. It's truly an older hero, having to work around his physical limitations.

I'm wondering what Starfleet is going to say about that little interview. It needed to be said but it sure was bad press for them.

At one point, Picard turns to the camera and says "I left Starfleet because of toxic masculinity", in response to an event where starfleet refused to install milkshake cannons on the enterprise.

There's also a new race of enemy aliens whose battle cry is "What about the men?"

Don't forget when he chokes back a tear, says, "I'm going to my safe space now," and disappears into the holodeck.

 

[The Cat]

I just watched it tonight.

I liked it enough to keep watching. I liked it better than the first season of Discovery. I like how it's a tight small story right now, focused on Picard and not really jumping all over the place like the ensemble stories we're used to with ST series. It still feels like STTNG but more complex/nuanced as it goes -- it's got more sensibilities from where TV series are nowadays rather than back in the 90's.

I forgot how much I missed Data. I guess out of all the TNG cast, I identified most with him even though I usually found something in everyone I appreciated. I got choked up seeing him on screen again, it was a reaction I was not expecting.

I'm not really sure where it's going yet, but yeah, I noted the things you mentioned in your spoiler as well. Since it IS focused on Picard's POV, it allows for a deeper dig into his emotional subjective experience. I also liked the fact that -- even though he was never a Kirk in terms of physical ability -- he's years older now and out of practice and it really shows in terms of his limited endurance. It's truly an older hero, having to work around his physical limitations.

I'm wondering what Starfleet is going to say about that little interview. It needed to be said but it sure was bad press for them.



Don't forget when he chokes back a tear, says, "I'm going to my safe space now," and disappears into the holodeck.

Which he can totally do now thanks to Barclay's law.

 

[Totenkindly]

Star Trek: Picard Properly Explains The Kelvin Timeline's Origin

Fans can also now understand why Starfleet was uninvolved in the rescue operation, having suffered such horrible losses when the rogue synthetics attacked Utopia Planitia on Mars. It makes sense that Spock would have shirked the Federation's wishes to stay out of the Romulan emergency, as he had been fostering a revolutionary underground movement on Romulus, as seen in the class Star Trek: The Next Generation two-part episode "Unification."

This new information also adds depth and context to the villain of the 2009 film, Nero. Nero's vengeful motives make much more sense knowing that Starfleet pulled out of a promised rescue mission, leaving Nero's family to die on Romulus. At one point in the film, Nero even tells a captured Captain Pike that he's seen his version of Romulus die, and that the Federation did nothing to stop it, dovetailing perfectly with Starfleet's inaction in Star Trek: Picard. It doesn't exactly make Nero come off as benevolent - he's still trying to murder plenty of people out of spite - but it makes him a much more tragic and compelling figure knowing his grievances against the Federation are at least partly justified.

...it's fitting that Star Trek: Picard nods to those films at the outset, not just for the sake of continuity, but as yet another smooth handoff from one version of the franchise to the next.

Yeah... a trick Star Wars apparently hasn't yet figured out.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Star Trek: Picard Properly Explains The Kelvin Timeline's Origin

I thought they already explained this in Countdown

Star Trek: Countdown - Wikipedia

The comic is set in 2387, eight years after the film Star Trek: Nemesis. Federation and Romulan tensions have generally subsided, with Spock the official Federation ambassador to the Romulans. Data is still alive and has become captain of the Enterprise-E after successfully imprinting his memories onto the prototype android B-4. Jean-Luc Picard is now Federation ambassador to Vulcan, Geordi La Forge has retired to develop his own ships, and Worf is a General in the Klingon Empire.

The galaxy is threatened by the Hobus star, which will become a supernova. Spock proposes that the Romulans transport the precious mineral decalithium to Vulcan, where it can be converted into red matter capable of turning the star into a short-lived black hole, therefore ending its threat. The Romulan Senate opposes Spock, but he finds a comrade in Nero, the leader of the miners. Nero witnessed the Hobus supernova consume a planet first-hand and offers to secretly transport decalithium, noting it would be better than doing nothing and then leaving his wife and unborn son to die. Nero's ship, the Narada, is attacked by the Remans, but the Enterprise rescues them and escorts them to Vulcan with decalithium taken from the Reman ships. The Vulcan Council opposes Romulan use of red matter, infuriating Nero; he vows if Romulus is destroyed, he shall hold them accountable.

Nero returns to Romulus to discover Hobus has gone supernova and destroyed his home world. Driven mad by his loss, he attacks Federation Olympic class hospital ships that have arrived to give aid, believing they have come to claim his people's territory. He beams surviving Romulan senators onto his ship and kills them for not listening to Spock, and then claims the Praetor's ancient trident, the Debrune Teral'n, which is the greatest symbol of Romulus. He and his crew then shave their heads and apply tattoos to signify their loss. Nero goes to the Vault, a secretive Romulan base, and has the Narada outfitted with Borg technology to begin a rampage against his perceived enemies.

With the supernova expanding, Spock decides to deploy the red matter weapon. He takes the Jellyfish, a ship developed by La Forge that can withstand extreme environmental conditions. The Narada goes about destroying Federation, Klingon, and Cardassian ships alike, wounding Worf and damaging the Enterprise in the process. When Spock successfully destroys the supernova, the Narada appears to attack when the black hole flings it and the Jellyfish back in time, leaving Picard and the crew of the Enterprise as witnesses to Spock's sacrifice.

The Narada and Spock's Jellyfish ship emerge in 2233, thus setting in motion the events shaping the alternate Kelvin timeline. It also explains why a mining ship was so OP in the movie.

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't really know what is canon.

However, I am of a firm opinion that you cannot assume movie/TV watchers read comics and vice versa -- so you should not be including detailed backstory necessary to understand something in another form of media.

If you make sure it's all consistent with each, that's great... but I despise narratives where the "answers are outside the narrative" of the form you are watching.

This is more extraneous, you can still engage the narrative by just watching the show. (Although that crap with ROS was ridiculous, where the plot was incoherent unless you bought a $25 glossary book with explanations for various parts of the film among other things in general.)

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I don't really know what is canon.

However, I am of a firm opinion that you cannot assume movie/TV watchers read comics and vice versa -- so you should not be including detailed backstory necessary to understand something in another form of media.

If you make sure it's all consistent with each, that's great... but I despise narratives where the "answers are outside the narrative" of the form you are watching.

This is more extraneous, you can still engage the narrative by just watching the show. (Although that crap with ROS was ridiculous, where the plot was incoherent unless you bought a $25 glossary book with explanations for various parts of the film among other things in general.)

They briefly mentioned Spock's mission in '09, just didn't go into as much detail as the comic did, likely as to not kill the pacing and confuse newcomers to the franchise who might not be super familiar with the late 24th century series. Mentioning a bunch of characters and events a lot of casual fans or newcomers might not recognize would have been confusing, although part of me wishes there could have at least been a short film with Nimoy, Stewart, Burton and Spiner reprising their roles, sort of a prequel mini film like they did for Alien Covenant. They could have even filmed these scenes as Spock flashbacks that could be featured in an extended cut of the '09 film.

Although official canon according to the studios/rightsholders is only what we see on screen in the live action Trek series and movies, the Countdown comic was developed with notes and guidance from Bad Robot, as a way to tie the events of post-Nemesis to the new timeline (there's a linear progression there, even though it involves backwards time travel, which is why I always file my JJverse copies of the movies after Nemesis). However, it seems Picard contradicts some of the details in Countdown (for instance B4 surviving and becoming Captain Data of the Enterprise, when in Picard it seems he was dismantled and given to Bruce Maddox to study and model new androids after) so I guess it's a moot point.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I do like the idea of furthering the topic of synthetics' rights, since it's something the franchise has only occasionally touched on ("Measure of a Man", "The Offspring", Author, Author").

And while I'm not super thrilled with the idea of making Trek more dystopian, I disagree with some of the critics who can't stand/understand how the Federation, being a union of diverse species and worlds, could ever become isolationist. I think this is a natural, if unfortunate progression for most empires--if you look at the 2 decades of constant war the UFP faced, first with the Borg invasions, and later with the dominion, that can also explain the change in attitudes and increased xenophobia. The UFP had enjoyed a long period of relative peace and prosperity prior to the beginning of TNG. The UFP, regardless of its diversity, is also a really vast empire, if you look at the maps (larger than the Romulan and Klingon empires, similar in size to the Dominion). No matter how enlightened or cosmopolitan, history has shown large empires have difficulty maintaining their borders and eventually become either more isolationist and xenophobic or they simply become so large that they split apart due to the difficulty in maintaining communication, travel and order across such a vast area. Both scenarios happened to the Roman Empire.

This tends to happen with empires as they get too big to maintain. They begin to stagnate and become less outwardly-focused. Why this hasn't happened with the Borg collective is likely because they operate more like a "mobile empire", sort of like the Mongolian Empire, and also because of the single hive mind that keeps them all operating as one vast entity.

If handles well, this could be a good reflection on the failings of not only American imperialism, but that of past empires.

 

[Totenkindly]

They briefly mentioned Spock's mission in '09, just didn't go into as much detail as the comic did, likely as to not kill the pacing and confuse newcomers to the franchise who might not be super familiar with the late 24th century series. Mentioning a bunch of characters and events a lot of casual fans or newcomers might not recognize would have been confusing, although part of me wishes there could have at least been a short film with Nimoy, Stewart, Burton and Spiner reprising their roles, sort of a prequel mini film like they did for Alien Covenant. They could have even filmed these scenes as Spock flashbacks that could be featured in an extended cut of the '09 film.

Although official canon according to the studios/rightsholders is only what we see on screen in the live action Trek series and movies, the Countdown comic was developed with notes and guidance from Bad Robot, as a way to tie the events of post-Nemesis to the new timeline (there's a linear progression there, even though it involves backwards time travel, which is why I always file my JJverse copies of the movies after Nemesis). However, it seems Picard contradicts some of the details in Countdown (for instance B4 surviving and becoming Captain Data of the Enterprise, when in Picard it seems he was dismantled and given to Bruce Maddox to study and model new androids after) so I guess it's a moot point.

yeah, I didn't know the comic existed + it sounds like a bit of it was retconned for the show.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

There's also some contradictions. Picard answers that lady that he never lost faith in Data, but that's debatable. There's multiple points in TNG where he questions Data's sanity/programming after Data has acted questionably--I'd argue he at least had moments of a temporary loss in faith. I get why they retconned this though, for dramatic effect showing how much Data meant to him.

 

[Totenkindly]

No matter how enlightened or cosmopolitan, history has shown large empires have difficulty maintaining their borders and eventually become either more isolationist and xenophobic or they simply become so large that they split apart due to the difficulty in maintaining communication, travel and order across such a vast area. Both scenarios happened to the Roman Empire.

This tends to happen with empires as they get too big to maintain. They begin to stagnate and become less outwardly-focused. Why this hasn't happened with the Borg collective is likely because they operate more like a "mobile empire", sort of like the Mongolian Empire, and also because of the single hive mind that keeps them all operating as one vast entity.

If handles well, this could be a good reflection on the failings of not only American imperialism, but that of past empires.

Yeah, it ties into the notion that countries are like individuals (collectively) in the sense they have a lifespan -- they are born, they grow, they diminish, they die. This often works the same for groups of any size/kind, although based on other problems afflicting them.

I guess I could be taking what is happening in the USA harder, but I also see us as having moved through the "summer of our youth" and we are now on the diminishing end of our life cycle. Nothing lasts forever. I just thought it would last longer.

I like your points about how size creates problems that could be considered insurmountable. The communication and control issues are difficult to deal with because once something gets too large and you have to have smaller key management in various sectors, those sectors grow towards being their own independent creatures (because they can manage themselves easier -- kind of like the dinosaurs having specialized "mini-brains" in the hind quarters to manage the rear end, because it's so far away from the actual brain?). Those geographical distances also results in each area having its own concerns (resource allocations, population, acute and chronic threats, etc.) to face that other parts of the overall kingdom would not share. So it's almost natural that something would fall apart -- or retract in order to regain some cohesion.

I never really bought into the "pie in the sky" version of the Federation anyway. It's just not realistic. Every time you think you've got something good, something happens to threaten it. All the flies go to the new available apple, rather than focusing on the half-eaten shriveled old one. The Federation might have been happier and more cohesive once, but everything eventually starts to fail.

to me that is not morbid dystopia of some kind, it's simply a neutral view of a life cycle. I don't see the Federation as being evil, they are just facing realistic issues.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Yeah, it ties into the notion that countries are like individuals (collectively) in the sense they have a lifespan -- they are born, they grow, they diminish, they die. This often works the same for groups of any size/kind, although based on other problems afflicting them.

I guess I could be taking what is happening in the USA harder, but I also see us as having moved through the "summer of our youth" and we are now on the diminishing end of our life cycle. Nothing lasts forever. I just thought it would last longer.

I like your points about how size creates problems that could be considered insurmountable. The communication and control issues are difficult to deal with because once something gets too large and you have to have smaller key management in various sectors, those sectors grow towards being their own independent creatures (because they can manage themselves easier). Those geographical distances also results in each area having its own concerns (resource allocations, population, acute and chronic threats, etc.) to face that other parts of the overall kingdom would not share. So it's almost natural that something would fall apart -- or retract in order to regain some cohesion.

I never really bought into the "pie in the sky" version of the Federation anyway. It's just not realistic. Every time you think you've got something good, something happens to threaten it. All the flies go to the new available apple, rather than focusing on the half-eaten shriveled old one.

I think in DS9 we got a good look at "reality". Being a frontier station in what was initially a backwater, those Starfleet officers saw firsthand the troubles on the border, they had to live there continuously and that idealistic version of the federation wasn't quite what they saw or lived, particularly with themselves essentially being flipped into the role of the alien culture/invaders. Easy for someone on a ship like The Enterprise to believe in that idealized federation, because they're in a self-contained little vessel with a lot of like-minded people, and even when they'd visit new worlds or see strife, they weren't there for long and were off to the next planet for next week's episode.

Seems the new show is more tonally in line with DS9 than with TNG, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was completely intentional on the writers' part. I think even the TNG films First Contact and Nemesis feel a lot more like DS9 films despite featuring the Enterprise crew, although Generations and to a lesser extent Insurrection were very much TNG movies.

 

[The Cat]

I think in DS9 we got a good look at "reality". Being a frontier station in what was initially a backwater, those Starfleet officers saw firsthand the troubles on the border, they had to live there continuously and that idealistic version of the federation wasn't quite what they saw or lived, particularly with themselves essentially being flipped into the role of the alien culture/invaders. Easy for someone on a ship like The Enterprise to believe in that idealized federation, because they're in a self-contained little vessel with a lot of like-minded people, and even when they'd visit new worlds or see strife, they weren't there for long and were off to the next planet for next week's episode.

Seems the new show is more tonally in line with DS9 than with TNG, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was completely intentional on the writers' part. I think even the TNG films First Contact and Nemesis feel a lot more like DS9 films despite featuring the Enterprise crew, although Generations and to a lesser extent Insurrection were very much TNG movies.

My big issue with nemesis, is it just felt like they were like....what can we do that's not been seen to make it new for the theaters. Remans.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

My big issue with nemesis, is it just felt like they were like....what can we do that's not been seen to make it new for the theaters. Remans.

telepathic space vampires.

it did seem odd we'd never heard of this race once in all of previous trek. on top of that, if they were all slaves imprisoned on a moon under close watch, how the hell were they able to build that massive, OP ship? Seems like something the Romulan guards would have a hard time not noticing.