True Detective

[rav3n]

Episode 5 was pretty decent. There was some physical activity, some advancement in the case theories, and the last 15 minutes or so was on par with that earlier restaurant scene between Wade and Amelia, from a character perspective.

The opening is just f*cking insane. Woodard drops everyone on the property, and almost drops Roland, and then forces Hayes to kill him because he doesn't want to keep going. It's pretty crazy how quickly he takes everyone out. So this explains what happened in 1980 -- with Woodard dead, it's easy for the crime to be pinned on him, especially with what eventually seems to be planted evidence when the case is reexamined in 1990. It's also really sad in that one minority vet with PTSD forces another minority vet w/ issues to "carry his water" so to speak, and Wade knows it's not a far cry that he could have ended up there too if not for his job to provide some structure.... he's STILL kind of messed up and drinks / buries his pain away.

Amelia in 1990 isn't doing anyone favors either, her obsession with the case at best seems self-serving and at worst reinforces viewer perception that she was involved in some way. (I would be surprised, honestly, she doesn't scan as that duplicitous but simply maybe an opportunist. Also, the issues between her and Wayne aren't helping matters either. We still don't know why his daughter is estranged from him, but there were fractures in the marriage obvious to the kids back in 1990.

The revelation that Lucy manufactured the note isn't really a shocker, even if she possibly did it for a good reason (to give Tom some hope).

It's not exactly clear what's up with the phone call supposedly from Julie talking about Tom, although it threatens to blow our understanding open. It's already been hinted that Tom might not be the true bio father, and the things "Julie" says on the phone would support that, although her understanding of Tom might be off in other ways. We don't know yet. Tom as a character actually seems pretty realistic and sincere, so again a shocker if he were actually involved or guilty of any of Julie's insinuations. Who is Julie's real dad? One of the Hoyts? It sounds plausible that Julie saw him as her fake dad even if his affection for her was real and her kidnappers either drove this home... or maybe Julie was being removed to get her away from Tom...? Tom might not be entirely innocent, although I can't see him as a killer at this point.

Roland and Wade stopped talking in 1991 for some reason that still is not explained, but it's insinuated they possibly killed someone together -- possibly Dan, Lucy's cousin, who was probably peeking on Julie through the closet hole and who disappeared in that time frame and whose skeleton was recovered in recent times. Whatever happened, only Roland really knows because Wade's memory seems so messed up it only lurks in his head as fragments of memory he can't trust. This is the "skeleton" in the closet.

The kid Wade threatened with prison rape back in 1980 (Freddie) hasn't really moved on from that trauma. It's just he's no longer a kid, so now he's bitter and angry when the cops show up in 1990 to ask more questions. The crows come home to roost on that one, and Roland has to do his best damage control if they're going to get anything more from him.

And all this then comes down to the last 15 minutes, when we finally see 2015 Roland, and Wade and son show up to talk. This is such a great scene and I teared up a few times. (The makeup is also really great.) There's a lot of buried anger there, but mainly because somehow a real friendship was ruined years ago and those old wounds are laid bare.... and what's clear is that both men miss each other and still have some kind of bond. Are people talking about Stephen Dorff, along with Ali? Because he's been so damn good on this show, and this episode is just a continuation of how good he's been. It just feels so real, dialogue included (it's not on the nose but you totally can read the emotions) -- I cried, I laughed, I ached. And the way Roland promises a renewal of friendship but doesn't want to dip his toe back in this shit... yet finally relents, because of Wade's apology and also his ability to show self-effacement, meaning maybe he's gotten some perspective even if he's obsessed because the case is all he can mostly remember.... well, it gives you hope that maybe these two who have been thwarted for 35 years on this damn fubar case, in the tail end of their lives, might actually find some justice after all.

Did you catch how Woodard called Wayne Sergeant? How did he know (is this a reveal for the two serving together) or did I miss something?

 

[Totenkindly]

Ah here's something.

Stephen Dorff Is Quietly the Best Thing About HBO’s ‘True Detective’ - The Ringer

 

[Totenkindly]

...the pink rooms!!!

 

[rav3n]

Bet it's the AG who's the kingpin, the chicken processing plant owner et al, and Julie Purcell, his daughter with Lucy Purcell.

 

[Totenkindly]

Bet it's the AG who's the kingpin, the chicken processing plant owner et al, and Julie Purcell, his daughter with Lucy Purcell.

Yeah, that's possible... although he also could just be your typical scumbucket expedient political type exploiting his connections and power for more power....

I do like how there are various red herrings in the story... like the peephole bit. Things that look one way but are for something else... probably. The thing is, you're never quite sure.

So the Hoyt's kidnapped Julie, seemingly. Someone related to the Hoyts was her bio father. Will was killed in the process. Someone knew of his personal involvement with church and staged the body like his communion photo.

Dan knew about the Hoyt connection. I'll guess Tom didn't kill Dan because he wouldn't have had time to dump the body before... whatever happens to him. Or if he did, someone else will ditch the body to clean up the mess. But there's also a decent chance that the Hoyts recognize the leak and take care of him as well. If Dan isn't dead, chances are Wayne and Roland catch up with him and get hoyt's name as well... but if I were Dan, I'd be long gone by morning if I were still alive. [That whole bit with Dan in the coffee shop was pretty great btw, in terms of evoking the time periods and how Dan was become dumpster trash so to speak.]

Here's a question... did Wayne and Roland get to the pink rooms and do in Harris James? (This is "what they did" according to the insinuations, that no one wants to talk about and Wayne might have forgotten.) In fact how much of this case actually WAS solved in 1990, but Wayne has forgotten now and only Roland dependably knows? If we were unsure what was going on with Wayne's memory in 2015, that whole bit where he goes to the bathroom in his own house while talking to Roland, then comes back and sees honestly surprised to see him and having forgotten the whole conversation -- or at least has trouble telling reality from imagination -- is pretty unsettling.

Tom's scream was pretty crazy and very real and raw. Obviously he wasn't involved with Julie's abduction (and I would have been surprised if he had been), although he's harboring other secrets slowly being uncovered. Cop admins just piss me off though, they think politically rather than in terms of actual justice. I know that's a trope, but at least TD has a way of making it feel "lived in" and not generic. But first they dump the crime on Woodard. Then to cover that up, they try to expand the culpability to the dad, once that becomes a possibility, in a way that doesn't mess with their original accusations. So much for fact-finding. I was a little surprised at how lax security was at the police station, though, in 1990.

So Henry and the documentary woman are hooking up. yet another odd twist.

 

[ceecee]

Great season so far! Anyone wants to take a stab at the main two characters' types?

We have a subforum for that if you would like to start a thread.

https://www.typologycentral.com/forums/forum40/

 

[rav3n]

Yeah, that's possible... although he also could just be your typical scumbucket expedient political type exploiting his connections and power for more power....

That's possible too which was my assumption throughout the series until ep 6. The fear that Dan O'Brien evidenced was the fear of a powerful man (brilliant diner scene where Michael Graziadei shone as a tweaked out addict with an oscar worthy performance) where the only powerful man present in 1980 and 1990 was the DA turned AG, albeit he might have covered it up for the Hoyt family in a pay to play move.

I do like how there are various red herrings in the story... like the peephole bit. Things that look one way but are for something else... probably. The thing is, you're never quite sure.

Yeah, they did a brilliant job of inserting red herrings but on the other hand, that's what makes it so realistic, in that long investigations likely go this way where investigators hunt down leads that go nowhere.

So the Hoyt's kidnapped Julie, seemingly.

Agreed.

Someone related to the Hoyts was her bio father.

Likely, albeit it's possible they might just have bought Julie from her mother, in order to replace the grand daughter who died. A wild thought that occurred to me is that Lucy Purcell is a Hoyt and if so, she might not have sold Julie, only provided with a Hoyt lifestyle.

Will was killed in the process. Someone knew of his personal involvement with church and staged the body like his communion photo.

This is something that's important. The teenager who stole the bike from Will. Don't forget that he caught Will running around in the forest alone. This negates the possibility that he died defending Julie from her initial kidnapping unless Will caught up with the kidnappers and was subsequently killed, perhaps to cover up who kidnapped Julie. As a guess, Julie wasn't really kidnapped, only convinced to live as a pink princess. What's also potentially relevant is that corn husk dolls were adopted by pagans, as a winter vessel for the spirit that loses its home after harvest. Next spring, the dolls are planted with the new crop so the spirit can rise again. That's Will, harvested and waiting to rise again. The first communion pose points to a family member, even Julie, but also, might point to the Father/Priest.

Dan knew about the Hoyt connection.

Did you catch how Julie moved in with them at age four? She might not be related to him which is why I wondered if Lucy was a Hoyt. She might be the 'missing' Hoyt granddaughter, perhaps squirreled away for her protection against predatory male relatives or possibly, illegitimate. This is starting to have a 'mother/sister/daughter' Chinatown feel to it which might help to explain Lucy's oversexualized behavior.

I'll guess Tom didn't kill Dan because he wouldn't have had time to dump the body before... whatever happens to him. Or if he did, someone else will ditch the body to clean up the mess. But there's also a decent chance that the Hoyts recognize the leak and take care of him as well. If Dan isn't dead, chances are Wayne and Roland catch up with him and get hoyt's name as well... but if I were Dan, I'd be long gone by morning if I were still alive. [That whole bit with Dan in the coffee shop was pretty great btw, in terms of evoking the time periods and how Dan was become dumpster trash so to speak.]

That's possible.

Here's a question... did Wayne and Roland get to the pink rooms and do in Harris James? (This is "what they did" according to the insinuations, that no one wants to talk about and Wayne might have forgotten.) In fact how much of this case actually WAS solved in 1990, but Wayne has forgotten now and only Roland dependably knows? If we were unsure what was going on with Wayne's memory in 2015, that whole bit where he goes to the bathroom in his own house while talking to Roland, then comes back and sees honestly surprised to see him and having forgotten the whole conversation -- or at least has trouble telling reality from imagination -- is pretty unsettling.

Something to consider. Harris James is gay or bi, so is blackmail involved somewhere? Is Tom gay too since Lucy once ranted about how he's not a normal man. And if the two were sleeping together in the 1980s, what's the impact to the plotline?

Something else to remember is that in episode 1, during the 1990 interview of Wayne by the AG and DA, they mention that Wayne had memory issues and then the scene cuts out without explanation.

Tom's scream was pretty crazy and very real and raw. Obviously he wasn't involved with Julie's abduction (and I would have been surprised if he had been), although he's harboring other secrets slowly being uncovered. Cop admins just piss me off though, they think politically rather than in terms of actual justice. I know that's a trope, but at least TD has a way of making it feel "lived in" and not generic. But first they dump the crime on Woodard. Then to cover that up, they try to expand the culpability to the dad, once that becomes a possibility, in a way that doesn't mess with their original accusations. So much for fact-finding. I was a little surprised at how lax security was at the police station, though, in 1990.

Oh yeah, Tom's so not involved. Another great acting scene where this series is loaded with them so it's easy to immerse. This is a small town so that's likely why security's lax.

So Henry and the documentary woman are hooking up. yet another odd twist.

That came out of nowhere, lol! Wonder how it's relevant, although when they first introduced the documentary woman, the quick thought that she's Julie, flashed through my mind.

 

[rav3n]

Wish it was Sunday night, right now. Really looking forward to how this unfolds in the next two episodes.

 

[ceecee]

Wish it was Sunday night, right now. Really looking forward to how this unfolds in the next two episodes.

Same

I'm beginning to think Julie killed Will.

Either that or I'm reading too much Film School Rejects.

So we have the Hoyt's mansion and Tom breaking in and he finds...the pink room. With Harris James right behind him. It does appear Tom has other issues too (pamphlet and condoms) that lend more weight to Julie not being his child.

Amelia! How did she find this nuns shelter lead? She was at the press conference and there was a reporter and Lucy with her "friend". Who is this "friend"?

Why did Harris James tell Wayne he had a good body? Interesting considering his office screamed LOOK HOW MANLY I AM!

Dan. I want $7000. This seems odd to me. Why not ask for $5000? Or $10,000. Weird.

Here's an interesting tidbit I read.

While Amelia is talking to the girl who knew Julie at the Catholic shelter, she briefly gets distracted by a young man getting out of a truck outside labeled “Ardoin Landscaping.” That’s the same last name as the little boy, Mike,who Amelia thought had a crush on Julie and later revealed that Julie had gotten the cornhusk dolls from someone while trick-or-treating.

Also, True Detective and landscapers…always worth a second look.

Indeed.

“I always thought he should have put that extra day in, instead of half-assing it.” This should be embroidered on a pillow.

 

[Totenkindly]

Only ten minutes in on episode 7... but damn, that's a hell of an opener.

----

I thought I recognized hoyt's voice.

that was Michael rooker, wasnt it?

 

[rav3n]

[MENTION=7]Totenkindly[/MENTION]

You nailed it that Wade and Roland killed Harris James. And you're right, it's Hooker. I didn't recognize his voice but just checked IMDb and he's been given credit for Hoyt.

Some details that I recalled from the episode:

Cousin Dan was the link between the one eyed guy (Watts) and Lucy. Watts was Hoyt's daughter's caregiver. Harris James was Hoyt's fixer who likely murdered Lucy, Tom and Dan, planted the backpack, clothing and stole the fingerprints. We also know that he knew about Julie since he knew about the pink room and that he considered Dan and Lucy trash. Wayne gets to meet Hoyt where it appears that Hoyt knows something about the death of Harris James. The only way he would have known what happened at the barn was for Roland to have told him.

Whether these two details are red herrings or not, I'm not sure. The children's aunt had a pic of the two ghosts who gave Julie the corn husk doll(s). The blonde journalist mentioned that corn husk dolls were used by pedophile rings (likely to identify their targets).

Wild possibilities:

What if Hoyt's the mastermind behind a pedo ring and is a pedo himself? What if the son-in-law ran away with the granddaughter to save her from Hoyt so Hoyt had Harris James pull them over to retrieve the girl and murder the son-in-law? Or maybe, killed them both to wipe out witness and victim? Or Lucy's the missing granddaughter, hence why she became over-sexualized from childhood molestation. Another possibility is that Hoyt's the real father of his grand-daughter. This is why Hoyt's daughter is nuts. She might have been trying to escape or commit suicide when she rammed her car. Watts and daughter Hoyt were the ones who were meeting with Julie and her brother in the woods. I don't think Watts or the daughter had anything to do with the murder of the brother or the kidnapping of Julie. It's Hoyt and his pedo ring.

I've likely forgotten some important details so if anyone recalls more, please add them. Feel free to agree with or trash my possibilities and add your own.

 

[Hive]

Right now I'm not sure the pedo angle is correct at all. It is mentioned the Hoyts have been very unlucky with regards to family. Isabel Hoyt lost her daughter which made her crazy. Towards the end of the episode, Hoyt tells Wayne on the phone "It's lucky having a family". Obviously Watts and Isabel were the mixed race couple meeting the children in the woods. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but my impression is that Julie doesn't seem to have been particularly traumatized by the Hoyts - her distress have been more aimed towards Tom. At this point it seems more like Isabel used Julie as a surrogate daughter, possibly paying Lucy for it, and made Julie the "princess of the pink rooms". Something happened during one of these regular meetings resulting in Will's death, forcing Isabel and Watts to kidnap Julie to cover things up. (Or perhaps this is what Isabel planned in order to keep Julie in the pink rooms permanently instead of meeting sporadically.) If Watts was the black man who showed up at Amelia's book reading (quite likely that it was), he also seemed genuinly upset that Amelia was profiting off of this tragedy. It's possible Watts was the one releasing Julie after a long time of captivity in the pink rooms, as he was the only one except Isabel who was allowed down in the basement.

The loss of a daughter is a recurring theme. Isabel losing her daughter, Tom losing Julie, and Wayne being estranged from Becca. (As well as Rust losing his daughter in season 1.)

 

[ceecee]

Right now I'm not sure the pedo angle is correct at all. It is mentioned the Hoyts have been very unlucky with regards to family. Isabel Hoyt lost her daughter which made her crazy. Towards the end of the episode, Hoyt tells Wayne on the phone "It's lucky having a family". Obviously Watts and Isabel were the mixed race couple meeting the children in the woods. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but my impression is that Julie doesn't seem to have been particularly traumatized by the Hoyts - her distress have been more aimed towards Tom. At this point it seems more like Isabel used Julie as a surrogate daughter, possibly paying Lucy for it, and made Julie the "princess of the pink rooms". Something happened during one of these regular meetings resulting in Will's death, forcing Isabel and Watts to kidnap Julie to cover things up. (Or perhaps this is what Isabel planned in order to keep Julie in the pink rooms permanently instead of meeting sporadically.) If Watts was the black man who showed up at Amelia's book reading (quite likely that it was), he also seemed genuinly upset that Amelia was profiting off of this tragedy. It's possible Watts was the one releasing Julie after a long time of captivity in the pink rooms, as he was the only one except Isabel who was allowed down in the basement.

The loss of a daughter is a recurring theme. Isabel losing her daughter, Tom losing Julie, and Wayne being estranged from Becca. (As well as Rust losing his daughter in season 1.)

Marty also had daughters.

 

[Totenkindly]

Interestingly there's a huge debate in the Comments over on AV Club with their review of the episode -- Emily (the reviewer) claimed that how Harris was handled was a narrative copout.

Basically the episode cast him as kind of deserving to be killed, since he might have "made a move for his gun" and refused to get out of the car, and then lied about being hurt to SOME degree to get out of his cuffs, attacking Wayne and thus Roland was permitted to shoot him. He thus "justified" his own death a bit. She felt it would have been more honest to the narrative for the detectives to be responsible for his death with his behavior remaining more ambiguous.

Mostly it comes down to some people criticizing the reviewer for downgrading episodes that didn't go "as she wanted them to," where others are supporting her criticisms as valid and also that just being part of the review process. I do think her approach would be a bit stronger, honestly, and explain better some of the memory lapses and such nowadays, and the bad blood between the partners. I dunno, it's kind of a balance because (1) real life sometimes has stuff that happens that isn't quite as dramatic as a story, but (2) a story is actually a highly tailored narrative that attempts to get the most dramatic juice out of a particular collection of events and people and details; it's not real life, which often has a bunch of irrelevant clutter in it that we have to screen out. And people are reading stories for that particular focus.

Of course, Pizzolatto is known for his red herrings and sometimes diffusive meanderings.

 

[rav3n]

I don't understand the narrative copout angle. It's simply subjective preference for the direction of the narrative.

Also, senior Wayne took responsibility for his role in Harris James' death. This was evidenced in his apology to Roland, although I don't understand the manipulation aspect since Wayne convinced Roland with concrete evidence (phone and flight logs), not manipulation. And in my subjective opinion, Harris James was obviously a corrupt cop who destroyed an innocent man (Woodard) with his actions, never mind the likelihood of murdering at least one person or more. If anything, Roland didn't take responsibility for his role since he excessively tortured James and even if Wayne hadn't released James, any information garnered from James wouldn't have been admissible in court because of the torture.

 

[chickpea]

 

[Totenkindly]

Season 4 will be a helluva ride.

 

[rav3n]

Even though it's been stated enough times in this thread, the acting has all around been superb. Ali brilliantly nails it in all three timelines. Dorff, brilliant in the first two but lagging a hair as a senior since he's a touch too mentally sharp and fluidly mobile. All the supporting actors have been excellent, especially McNairy and Graziadei.

 

[Totenkindly]

Even though it's been stated enough times in this thread, the acting has all around been superb. Ali brilliantly nails it in all three timelines. Dorff, brilliant in the first two but lagging a hair as a senior since he's a touch too mentally sharp and fluidly mobile. All the supporting actors have been excellent, especially McNairy and Graziadei.

I agree with the quality of the acting, although I dunno if I'd criticize Dorff.

My step-grandmother just died last month. She was 98. She was as sharp as a tack until about age 95. So ... it happens. I guess with Roland, the main issue is whether a guy who is killing off brain cells by the thousands for years with his boozing would maintain his mental skills.

But yeah. I'm really happy with the acting this time out. If there's any problem, it's the big-picture scripting at moments (and compared to Season 2, I feel bad even picking at something).

 

[rav3n]

I agree with the quality of the acting, although I dunno if I'd criticize Dorff.

My step-grandmother just died last month. She was 98. She was as sharp as a tack until about age 95. So ... it happens. I guess with Roland, the main issue is whether a guy who is killing off brain cells by the thousands for years with his boozing would maintain his mental skills.

But yeah. I'm really happy with the acting this time out. If there's any problem, it's the big-picture scripting at moments (and compared to Season 2, I feel bad even picking at something).

Seniors, even when mentally sharp also have a childish nuance to them from subtle to overtly so. Not sure how to explain this aspect but Ali nails it. Dorff lacks it since he remains fully adult and is too fluidly mobile. Even when spry, seniors most often shorten their steps and stoop a bit. Even so, Dorff is all around brilliant to excellent so I'm nitpicking, lol. Felt the need to mention it since I dropped out of immersion for a second here and there because of this.

Oh, btw, did you catch the Season 1 Easter Egg?