[Traditional Enneagram] STACKEMUP TYPOLOGY (ENNEAGRAM-SIDE) VS. R & H

[KitchenFly]

After having have slept on your reading your typologies of the nine and woken up refreshed. I think the saddest thing is your labelling of nothing, feeling nothing inside as a bad thing and not realising on your own behalf that the feeling nothing inside has three sides to it a negative and that's a disassociation and a positive that being fuelled via the nothing and being InPower by it and a neutral that and that like a standby therein it serves as like an auto pilot mode wherein the neutral serves when appropriate the sub-Conches is somewhat active and intuition of a spiritual order is engaged cutely without the dominant egoic mind not noting it, Is BOSS.

There is intimacy in solitude and solitude in intimacy. That was what was missing and disappointed me about the beeper value of your typologies on the type nine I read.

I get that you are a ESTp that makes sense.

 

[Tomb1]

Hold on. Did you go and check out my Bliss Stream descriptions for 9w1 to confirm your stacking in Stackemup Typology (enneagram-side)?


If this is it yes, I have read it and sheared my thoughts below.


Tomb 1 I corrected some of your spelling and grammar mistakes.

I'm glad you are going to cut to the chase here.

Type Nine

Nines are self-doubting. In the absence of hard proof, they have difficulty thinking/knowing and assume the position of sceptic. They are habitually uncertain about things they have every reason to be certain about. They want to find something they can trust in and look for proofs that will help them to stabilize their shaky sense of existence. They seek out substitutes for their inner guidance that they can reference internally for counsel, direction and advice. They have no trust in their ability to independently know and quickly need reassurances, but just as they have those reassurances quickly lose it.

I have read this, and I believe this is an inaccurate assessment of my personality as a Meen over the 57 seven years thus far. I can relate to all statements as being true in times of stress and uncertainty in the primary school age years of my phycological development. But because these statements above do not describe my cognition as a hole accurately in its normal everyday action, I would advise you seek help in contextualising your typology with more accuracies to reflect the cognition of type nines.

I can back my descriptions up with a 2500+ exemplar breakdown for every type, wing and stack...you can't. Neither can R & H. I differentiate between enneagram type, wing and stack through socionics. Energy levels can be differentiated through Temp States. You don't need anything more than that. You don't need to invent a 1000 different enneagram types to make the enneagram workable. And I think the description is accurate for you...this is seeking reassurances:

"Are oscillating pairs like two ends of a seesaw like a divide or a multiplicity? Or like a binary pole like a north pole south pole? Or is it simply like a chemistry thing each compound must have a minimum of two components in order to generate a relationship? Like a contrast to relate to the contrast of mind and observed environment, or simply put self and other. With differentiations."

...If I am an INFP is one of my oscillation pairs Fi-Ne? If I am a 9w1 could another one-off my oscillation pairs be Fi-Te and if I am a 9w1w8 could six of my oscillation pairs be as listed directly below or is sonics a completely different system with no mechanical link to the operations of the Enneagram of Personality model?

Or have I stumbled on one of many new layers of possibly viewing, minds operations?

with actions like Fi-Te & Ne-Si for the (9w1) as an - (INFP & ESTJ) combined. Is this more like what an oscillation pair is meant to be Tomb 1?"

Nines are vacillating. Nines are the point on the enneagram that have no built-in distortion about the world. As a result, nines have difficult feeling that they know or can grasp the expectations of others and respond to the world with ambivalence, vacillation and doubt. As a result, nines seek out external systems that will ground them with a sense of what to expect from the world and the people in it. Beliefs, rules, codes, customs, become very important to to Nines and they look to outer authorities and leaders for guidance and invest a great deal of importance in those beliefs.

This is somewhat true, but it contradicts itself as a statement. Nines due to there no built-in distortion about the world as you say, do have or can have some difficulties yielding and trusting the authority of adults and there dictates as peer leaders. Nines are more influenced by their sub-Conches lens. Being trained to prompted to abandon this innate ability rather than trust and develop it is generating turbulence and insurgency within the inner world of the nine. I myself in primary school had to place several teachers and my parent into close contact with their own sub-Conches lens viewpoint via invoking receptivity with other, receptivity of a spiritual order in order to press the point that I will not suspend my viewpoint. Nines do seek knowledge to build an understanding for developing an understanding of the biases and political biases viewpoint of the collective egoic viewpoints. Nines can be slow to embrace and develop their own expression of phycological corruption and to play the game with mind les fluency. But given time nine do yield and they to also loose primary contact with authentic self.

"This is somewhat true, but it contradicts itself as a statement" is a vacillating assessment of vacillation. "sub-conches"(sic) lens viewpoint via invoking receptivity with other" does not equate to any contradiction with vacillation.

Nines are fatalistic. They become fixated on finding a magical/powerful figure that can take on responsibility for key areas of their life. The powerful figure works as a buffer to take control of things that nines feel they are at the mercy of. Essentially, the magical figure is somebody that will one day show up to make the nine's life complete and give them the motivation to actually take action and exert their will. Until that time, nines are content to remain complacent.

This is primarily true for underdeveloped nines but not all nines. I am certainly not fatalistic. I find that attitude in others offensive and have had to discipline my auto reaction in order to understand with understanding the nature of the overcompensation. Fatalistic tendency often comes from sensing at the instinctual level from point seven of the helix.

I am noting that you over rely on you 9w8 Point of stress. You start each paragraph statement with an INFJ viewpoint lead statement. And your typology has a 9w8 viewpoint. The words imbalance bias come to mind. I would recommend reading Don Risso's typologies. He had a knack of knitting a continuity of expressing all nine-point energy viewpoint expressions into the flow of his typologies. Personality Types - first edition, is a fine example. It induces a sense in the reader of the three energies of Id Ego and Supper ego and the diversity between the nine energies. Ask your Dominatrix to set some reading homework for you to complete.

As a LII-Ti 9w1, Russ Hudson knows how to market to the mainstream. I'll go by a first edition of Personality Types when you show me that either you or Russ Hudson can back R & H's ideas up with a 2500+ exemplar breakdown for every type, wing and stack. You can't take typology in reverse, building castles in the sky first and then trying to make the world fit into those abstractions. My approach is wholly organic, from the ground up. I've got the only valid breakdown for every type, wing and stack...

Nines are inert. They are unable to see life from a "I can do it" point of view as everything just seems hopeless. They justify their lack of action as simply being too much trouble to do or annoying. They can take action for the benefit of others but not for their own. They say no to things outside of their comfort zone and report not feeling good enough. They indulge in magical thinking believing that the great things in life they desire will just happen one day. They put off important decisions to attend to their responsibilities to others and never feel like doing much of anything. They simply become stuck in routines and habits, "sleepwalking" through events.

Inert, lacking the ability or strength to move.

Once again you are describing the werst as the totality. You are lacking context in your typology. Shore nines have difficulty with apathy and indolence, but the majority of nines grow out of it and adapt to the rigors of life demands. I don't see institutions sanatoriums a cross my nation full of ineffective nines incapable functioning be nursed and feed phytopharmaceuticals as a last resort measure.

Oh but its okay for R & H to describe the worst of the types. But when I do it, "I am lacking context." There is a saying, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Nines are dependent. In order to bring a magical figure into their lives, they instinctively avoid their own autonomy. In response to the fear of losing the support of other's nines suppress their own wilfulness in order to go with the flow, to stay merged with the agenda of others and to suppress their own 'inner voice’; to avoid conflict and to remain in a state of inaction. The end result is that they are out of touch with inner guidance and look for others to provide them with mental reassurance. They forget themselves. They go on autopilot. They fall asleep, so to speak. A process of deterioration in their ability to think abstractly occurs. They find it easier to just adopt group sentiments or sentiments by others.

Nines are dependent. In order to bring a magical figure into their lives, they instinctively avoid their own autonomy. I am starting to feel a loss of Pashence Tomb 1.

This is just crappy pen ship. I just feel like I want to taser you! You are bringing out the INFJ within me.

How about correcting the statement nines are dependant. Every dependant person I see is not a nine. When someone stands in a supermarket line perching their weekly groceries am I to think Ow My God another line of dependant nines. All too lazy to grow their own produce.

Maybe you should say, Nines acting habitually from the behaviours and attitudes of their lower levels there unhealth levels of health (R&H nine levels of development.) Nines can exhibit a habitual degree of co-dependency. Nine can be viewed as being dependant personalities dependent upon others. They fane regency in need. Depending upon others to fill the agency of urgent resolution provider. Nines are dependent. Or can be thought of as being dependant. In order to bring a magical figure into their lives, they instinctively avoid their own autonomy. Unhealth nines can tend to manipulate intelligence in order to solicit a desired response a response that caters to their co dependence to resolve problems that require an analytical response. Emotional inflation distracts and inhibits type nines from actively utilising there third and fourth preferences respectively for both the 9w8 and 9w1. Sensing and Thinking for the 9w1 and Thinking and Sensing for the 9w8.

That paragraph is describing a type nine in a disordered state.

And remember, that Theodore Millon posited the idea that disorders presented less optimal functioning of an otherwise optimally functioning personality style. Millon first came out with idea of an axis of personality from healthy to unhealthy. That's Millon's idea (not R & H), and I think it's accurate. R & H just made it sound esoterically coincidental by calling it "nine levels of development...."Nine types, nine levels of development"...Mainstream spiritualists gobble that stuff up.

Healthy nines are in touch with inner clarity, awake to their own autonomy. As a result, they become better able to take action and come into contact with their inner guidance. The less they look for a magical figure outside of themselves, the completer and more whole they start to experience themselves as. Autonomy emerges. By re-owning their power, they gain a sense of control over the direction of their life and a sense of freedom from the agenda of others. They become more self-reliant and perhaps give off, at a subconscious level, the most naturally endearing quality of all the types.

That's not too bad but it's still wonky. You are not pointing out that they need to develop and learn to balance via usage the I, E, S, N, T, F, P, J functions. Nines like all the types don't have a perfect balance between the eight functions of I, E, S, N, T, F, P, J. Nines for whatever reason like all types need to work on developing and integrating all eight functions especially the third and fourth preferred otherwise they are utilised negatively in personality expression. S and T and T and S subjective thinking and thinking subjectively are the Achilles heel for both type nines and all twelve variants of the type nine. Some variants have an easier time of adjusting over the others, but it is evened out because life requires the input awareness from all six instinctual variants.

I am not intending to get into socionics types. Socionics describes styles of cognition.

9w8s are earthy. They are typically an apolitical type, identifying strongly with nature. They have a slyer sense of humour blended in street smarts. They shun bringing attention to themselves and like to run their operations more underground. They are a more down to earth nine still insightful who have an ability to build up the egos of others. They are often very intuitive. They put emphasis on not sticking out and getting more in touch with nature. Their internal experience diffuses more into universals even as they poeticize the crude. Doubts they have about their sponsors or experts can always be projected onto scapegoats. They tend towards being terse. They can be difficult to understand but not because they say too much, rather that they say too little. Their thinking favours repetition and memorization. They focus a lot of attention to energy and body language.

9w8s are stubborn. They are more about holding the line. They stick more fervently to their own principles even when it's at odds with the times, very often giving them a more old-school quality. They dip threats in olive oil and size people up by whether the person can stay within the forms of that occasion without breaking. They stabilize and gain advantage over competitors by setting up "walls" that push competition out and erode the possibilities.

9w8s are reliable. They jump through hoops for people and take hits for the team. They know what to do without having to take direction. They are quick to volunteer themselves for tasks and don't have a problem helping others to further their agenda. They often function as "middlemen" in the distribution of new ideas. They have a compulsion to remind people of stuff and to constantly try and check in with people to make sure things are all right. They are strongly attuned to people's appetites.

9w8s are protective. They are shaken by the horrors of the world and are often the first to advance onto the front-lines willing to sacrifice themselves or whatever power they have at their disposal in order to make a difference. When tragic things happen, they sometimes lament over "what a sick world it is." They put more responsibility on themselves to help make it better. They do things for the benefit of others even more than they do for themselves. They will seek out interdependent relationships between equals who will join them in doing the same. They will come up with or adapt ideas that can be used to deter denigration, insensitivity and other abuses of power. They are big on human rights. Some devote their lives to humanitarian causes finding assurances for their passive/aggressive ambivalence by fighting for justice on behalf of the weak believing it their duty.

9w1s are critical. They have a stronger sense of self-condemnation. They are more impotent in their anger than 8 wingers. They compartmentalize their anger so as to responsibly do their part. They often don't take well to ideas or assertions that disrupt their sense for the objective reality.

9w1s are conformist. They are highly deferential to authority. They look to the authorities to provide them shelter on a whole array of things from what to think to what to wear. They seek out causes, missions, ideologies, organizations etc they can wholeheartedly dedicate themselves to. They like to be part of something bigger than themselves. They show their loyalty by doing what they believe people expect of them and by suppressing any doubts they may have in order to maintain a loyal and partisan stance. They become guardians of the beliefs that they depend on for grounding and build up a pride and mutual admiration for those ideas and people associated with it. They overcommit themselves to the extent their personal lives take a back seat so that they can diligently do their part to extend the legacy of others.

9w1s are normative. Their perceptions of the environment are organized around reflexively defending a status quo. They are easily triggered by people whose opinions are subversive to ideas that conflict with the status quo, and often respond to such subversions as if they were attacks upon themselves. They take it upon themselves to try to ostracize and take on those whose opinions lack a sense of decency and conflict with sentiments and thought-terminating cliches the 9w1 has internalized. Their sense of decency is based upon their own emotive connections to how their fellow 'victims-in-arms' (past or present, living or dead) would feel about it, and for the 9w1 censorship based around that standard of decency supersedes free speech.

Twos are assertive in their other seeking. Nines are fatalistic in their other seeking.

Nines are modest. Threes are egotistical.

Fours are pathologically self-referential. Nines can't sustain self-reference for too long.

Fives are more certain. Nines doubtful.

Sixes are reactive. Nines grounded.

Rebelling is a way of life for Sevens. Nines vacillate between conformity and rebellion.

Eights are independent-minded. Nines seek mental reassurances.

Nines see more points of view than Ones do. Ones are more fanatical.


Your descriptions of the 9w8 and 9w1 are ok-Ish. I as a Sx/Sp 9w1 certainly do not agree with your depiction of the conformist the loyal devoted 9w1 who loves and seeks to serve his or her community because I feel so dependant I could not exist without its constructs. I'm all for synergy. But I don't efface my agenda to serve and preserve and promote institutions causes or anything else. I am passionate about the enneagram and passionate about building an understanding of minds structures, but that passion is shared by all types who have a similar interest. but having said that I do see the ok-ish-ness of your 9w8 and 9w1 typologies but to say that 9w8's are more down to earth and grounded that 9w1 is not what I have found. So, of my 9w8 friends have been quite confused and uncomfortable within their own skins. My two best friends from school age years sleeked a friendship from me in the hope that they would learn how to be more grounded and down to earth.

9w8s are more grounded than 9w1s....no question

As a social laster, the institutions you preserve and promote are not the wider social institutions but are so-called authorities found within the status quo of thing associated more with your own personal interest and aesthetic....which you have turned into your own type of institution. For example, you don't deny that R & H's book is part of the enneagram status quo/mainstream in the enneagram community and that you've in some way been triggered by this thread highlighting the flaws in R & H's typology:

"Personality Types - first edition, is a fine example...Ask your Dominatrix to set some reading homework for you to complete."

Being grounded and down to earth is easier via FI rather than Ni.

What I do agree with is 9w8 are more grounded in their ability to bond with others at a social level they seem to relate with ease rather than with blocks. I think it's the Ni first FE second and TE third for the 9w8 and the SE as last that makes them somewhat edgy.

The 9w1 has FI first and NE second and that allow then to observe and build understandings about their environment. 9w1 have SE third and TE last. The supports the first and third but having TE Last makes it difficult to differentiate in judgment between that is natural and that is egoic. 9w1 feel inner conflictions. Should I go along with others in order to fit in or should I stand firm with identifying what real, the two are very different. The natural word and the world view formed via the egoic mind are different. 9w1 feel confused about their view because they want to trust other people, but they want to trust their instinctual awareness too. A balanced instinctual awareness provides intuitions of a spiritual nature. Friends and peers cannot provide that nature in fact friends and peers provide the opposite nature.

Socionic types do not describe chief characteristics but rather describes styles of cognition, so "grounded and down to earth" is not relevant to socionic types.

 

[Tomb1]

I think the saddest thing is your labelling of nothing, feeling nothing inside as a bad thing and not realising on your own behalf that the feeling nothing inside has three sides to it a negative and that's a disassociation and a positive that being fuelled via the nothing and being InPower by it and a neutral that and that like a standby therein it serves as like an auto pilot mode wherein the neutral serves when appropriate the sub-Conches is somewhat active and intuition of a spiritual order is engaged cutely without the dominant egoic mind not noting it, Is BOSS.

Yes, that is right. The nine has no in-built distortion. I have labelled it that way because this absence of a distortion is the core of the 9 ego and ultimately leads to the characteristics of the nine fixation. I do not see any reason to gin it up with a positive artistic flourish. My descriptions take no prisoners.

 

[KitchenFly]

Russ Hudson is not a type nine. And I can say that with confidence because I attended on of his workshops. He may have type nine in his Tri Type, but I would think it's more likely to be type one in his tri type.

I don't the dislike of Don Risso and Russ Hudson. Shore Don Riso was not a perfect person and I myself while talking to him on the phone could not understand how he could not see a one-to-one correlation between the enneagram and the MBTI as I had constructed but that is natural. Not everyone can see all parts that make up the mind's operations. I still cannot understand the sonics model. I know some real smart people love the model I have known that for over two decades, so I respect that it is real, and I have not attuned to it. Maybe I am lazy maybe I am missing a receptive compound in my brain chemistry; I don't know why it is so but that the way it is. Maybe I already know it but realise my system is superior and of far greater value. Relax don't have a heart attack.

I read Don Riso's first edition of personality types and it hit the nail on the head over and over again. It was simple gritty and addressed the real hole person. It had the good parts and the unpleasant to know parts. It enlivened my own inner enneagram as I read it. That was its magic. It was not sanitised Asid approved by lefties for lefty phycological consumption watered down with filler information to be intellectualised. It revealed the real condition.

Don and Russ have done exceptional good work. Would I like to knockaround with them well properly not. I like Russ Hudson but quite frankly I thought he was a not the type of person I would like to be authentically close friends with within the real world. He was not open to communication, and he was quite moody and defensive and stressed out. But maybe I sore him only in a stressful state while jet lagged.

As for Don Riso I am shore he would be a fascinating dinner party host but far to intellectual and dry a person to have as a close friend. I imagine he would talk a whole lot of exaggerated unnecessary nonsense about his feelings and be far to engaged in his own head for my liking. But I like the work and contribution to phycology he has made.

Now maybe you're a wheelchair type of guy with attitude. Upset and stress because, you may get a flat tyre while going to the shop to buy a can of coke. You seem like a Pritty weird guy to me. You got that ESTP 8w7 Sx/So or sp/so or sp/sx whatever your instinctual variant is, thing going on. You hate Riso and Hudson because maybe you fear, they don't understand your thinking and they succeeded. We all need to vent our anger some way when we are having a shadow attack, so I get it. I fane hating people and people fain hating me. That's all part of the human condition. As long as we don't deteriorate into communist loving lefties living life will be good. Ohmygod, I hope you don't fly the Russian flag and sonics flag on your wheelchair!

Anyway, I'm happy you're spinning hard enjoy the rest of your day. I look forward to reading the rest of your post later today.

 

[KitchenFly]

Yep, that's right. Sx/sp 9w1 combative style is, they love to get under people's skin and rattle their cage. To cause reaction, to wake them/another up or to trigger positive or negative change. Sx/sp are utilising Point:4.

The energy of Point four has two expressions sheared via the core type energy expressions of all type fours and the Instinctual variant energy expression. Overlap ackers therefor each type utilises sx/sp to enhance in-common relatability in understanding other.

Now you should add that because that is everyday real insight into how the sx/sp 9w1 cognition operates.

Ow that's to real! I'm an intellectual I want to be taken seriously by my peers in the phycological community is likely to be your thinking.


Don Riso would probably would have stated that, about sx/sp 9w1 if he had addressed the six instinctual variants for each of the eighteen egoic mind sets in his first edition of Personality Types. And then mentioned the higher synergetic properties of the cognition style at their best, of the healthy sx/sp 9w1.

I think he would have been smart enough to recognise all 108 at the healthy average and unhealthy levels.

Don Riso had that ability to communicate concisely with the everyday person in layman language. Placing content in correct context I think was one of his gifts. He set a tone that was easily relatable and able to be innately adoptable by the reader.

In relatable language to you, He gave the wheelchair operator the repair kit and bicycle pump so they could role with fearless ease.

In my opinion Don Riso should have been awarded a Nobel prize.

 

[KitchenFly]

Sx/sp 9w1 cognitive communication style involves. Actualising themselves by having creative fun generating a vibrance in their general communication. Talking to shop keepers and workers as if they were embraced friends, they enjoy entertaining and stimulating in a proactive manner to invoke joy into the day. So/sp 9w1 utilise the four energies by touching on both the Point three and five to generate creativity that creates interesting reflection in thought and feeling in an impersonal way with those they chose to interact with. Thinking and feel and generating a kinaesthetic interaction is the goal. It is a little personal gift of happiness the average to health sx/sp nine is happy to shear to those they clear enough to shear with. sx/sp 9w1 are in the person instinctual trinary and to achieve this they utilise both Points one and seven. It's an expression of a three into three dynamic. The four three and five and four one and seven the seventh in this helix like action is the core subtype energy of 9w1. It is like an expression of making the law of three within were in the third implicate is the self as an egoic mind set (9w1) utilising six expression's as if the Helix at some level of now time narrative is in play. 4,35 and 417 generated by the third implicate 9w1 the self as an egoic mind set.

This is a positive example of the real mechanics of the egoic mind at work.

sadly, people have a very limited view of how the laws of three seven and one operate and miss the nuances. Making the law of three happen within just does not involve a fixed pattern of 3, 6, 9 and 1, 4, 2, 8, 5, 7.

How it works as complete pattern is a misery to me as it how mind and brain and body are a complete mystery to me. But mind is observable we use or mind all day every day and we interact with others who us their mind all-day every day.

You could look at it a different way to count seven parts in play 9w1, Points 4, 5 and 3 and point four one and seven. You may be thinking well which is the correct one then I would subject maybe both are happening at the same time along with many other layers like the other seventeen egoic mind set patterns or and Points 6, 8, and 2 in play. The creativity expressed by the sx/sp 9w1 maybe a Points six eight and two trinary expression.

My God have I discovered a new layer to the Tri-Type model? What 2025 Nobel Prize is defiantly mine.

The point is mind is complex and the nine energies maybe of a quantum nature with incredibly complex mechanical action in play.

Nonsense you may be thinking. How could the mind be quantum in nature?

Question... could these blank spaces be linked to the nine energies the nine points of the Enneagram model?

# + # + # + # + # + # + # + # + # = 9

S1, S2, S3, S4, S5, S6, S7
# , P2, P3, P4, P5, P6, P7
# , # , D3, D4, D6, D6, #
# , # , #..., F4 , F5.. #..., #

 

[KitchenFly]

As a LII-Ti 9w1, Russ Hudson knows how to market to the mainstream. I'll go by a first edition of Personality Types when you show me that either you or Russ Hudson can back R & H's ideas up with a 2500+ exemplar breakdown for every type, wing and stack. You can't take typology in reverse, building castles in the sky first and then trying to make the world fit into those abstractions. My approach is wholly organic, from the ground up. I've got the only valid breakdown for every type, wing and stack...


It seems you are working in reverse. Russ Hudsen is not a 9w1. Russ Hudson is a thinking triad type not a relating triad lead type. You say, Russ Hudson knows how to market to the mainstream. Well, that doesn't make him a 9w1 because all processes begin at zero at point nine and end at nine at point nine it just means Russ has mindfully developed a process led discipline.

If you had focused attention correctly you would have worked out Russ Hudson Tri-Type and that would make obvious, he cannot be a 9w1. You say, Russ Hudson knows how to market to the mainstream as if his hardrive for the inner logic of his enneagram type, the hard drive being a core distortion gives him the gift of the endlessly being able to chat-chat-chat because Russ Hudson's type, you state as being a type nine, has no in-built distortion; the core approach is vacillation. That logic does not make sense. Russ Hudson think's first and intuits second Point:5. He seeks to actualise himself effectively, Point: 4. He is energetic almost fisty if challenged in asserting and defending retained structural knowledge 6w5 INTJ and can moody if frustrated which points back to being a type five. He is a Sx/so 5w4. His Tri-Type is 5w4 1w2 2w1. This reinforces his precision to be right. It also if over compensated would lead to some mild schizoid tendencies. His Hole Brain Thinking would be very close to being 1111 hence his well-rounded abilities in research, discovery and deliverable of transferable information to all types to be absorbed and understood. But He probably is a 1121. He has a strong bias for the Sosial instinct. He would most likely confuse himself at times and thinking he is a So/sx 6 because his supper ego gets in the way via bias between his Tri Type and Instinctual drives. Sx/so and so/sx and so/sp are al on the sensing side of the circle and have some difficulty with feeling what They sense. Subjective politics get in the way and emotion gets charged as if voice-stress lie, they want to be herd and they want you to know.

Having said that He may be a So/sx 5w4 but I think he is a Sx/so 5w4. I would have to spend time with him and see the full range of his natural personality's expression and use my receptivity to quiz him to solicit true real responses. I only met him once via a three-day workshop he hosted and watched many YouTube videos and partook in two or three online workshops. Workload and real-life mode can be two different masks. It seemed to me he always rested in the Sx side of Sx/so in his habitual expression.

I know when I am high functioning, I can express Sp/sx but I always return to rest and express Sx/sp. But I am most likely or certainly not as high functioning as Russ is. When I'm stressed and overcompensate, I get emotionally Sp expressive-like but it is channelled in a very sharp impersonal dry logical even mechanical manner. But when I get into action focused, I draw on Point three, I really do make the shift and take on the sp/sx instinctual expression. Its as if going to point three is the fulcrum between Sx and Sp. So, stress can be a difficult factor to factor. In a different synergetic state, I go to Point six and draw upon So/sp at point: 8 and Sx of Sx/sp that is not a stress driven setting that is a kind of balancing of the personal and teamwork trinities. I have not experienced that for quite some time. I tend to that expression if I am communicating with high functioning people. It requires a kind of commitment of intimacy wherein the dyad between self and anther or others is akin to intimacy in the solitude of open honest communication. Its a higher synergy wherein all parties are considered within the solitude of the intimacy of the transaction. I know it does not sound quite the right way to explain it but it's a solitude distanced from the average and the unhealth of egoic expression and that is an intermate act. It's like there is a seesaw between points 8&4 at the instinctual variant level. When they are balanced the healthy levels Level 1, 2, 3, of the R&H Nine Level of Development are Active. The Social Value level: 3 is defiantly engaged. It's quite extraordinary but once the engagement is complete the seesaw dissolves so to say its back to Sx/sp alone and back to (Sx/sp to Sp/so) and (Sx/sp to So/sx).

I would also say at levels 1, 2, 3, of the R&H Nine Level of Development when they are Active. The two trinary triangles at the six instinctual variant level are active. Levels 1 & 2 has more seesaws in play. That is an extraordinary state because in the self's own cognition the self can express all six instinctual variants and flow between them and express all nine energies. It freaks people out being mirrored that level of cognitive synergy, but I know it is real because I when I was in grade four of primary school for about one or two mouths or, so. I was experimenting with that ability. I have not done it as an adult well I know I did it once and I did it so some degree when I was listing my one-to-one correlations but that was more the 18 egoic mind set to sense the MBTI actions. But I did that with more receptivity and observation than taking on the energy in an open expressive manner.
The personal trinary and teamwork trinary at the instinctual variant level are synergised together at levels 1, 2, and some what level 3 that is what makes the health level so magical to experience/express, The Helix is working the helix is actively engaged and it feels good. Personal and the personal and teamwork are effortless higher intelligence and higher emotion are actively engaged. In solitude the Heart is knottiest clearly, it is a very intermate experience. But sadly, I don't go there I can't seem or won't free myself to give myself that gift of experience.

Thats one of the curses of learning the theoretical enneagram. The more I learn about the workings of mind the less naturally active has been the heart and higher intelligence and higher emotion in my natural expression of mind. It's a strange thing.

Knowing this is why I am passionate about the enneagram. Maybe it is a bit of an institutional leaning for me. But I could be equally as passionate about electronics if it amazed me, in a similar way.

I'm not 100% shore of Russ Hudson's instinctual variant but my thoughts are Sx/so 5w4 1121 C type. dew to the complexities with supper ego and tri type I mentioned I rest with Sx/so 5w4 1121 C type. But I could be wrong with the instinctual variant between, Sx and So what side of the seesaw he proofers at rest. Entropy is King.

Five with four-wing.
Subtype: five with four-wing; INTP
Auxiliary wing: four with three-wing; ENFP (agenda focused)
Second wing: six with five-wing; INTJ (mood focused)
Point of stress/disintegration: seven with six-wing; ESFP
Point of Integration/Neurosis: eight with nine-wing; ESFJ


As for LII-Ti I have no Indepth understanding of your system.

I'll go by a first edition of Personality Types when you show me that either you or Russ Hudson can back R & H's ideas up with a 2500+ exemplar breakdown for every type, wing and stack. Lar lar lar!

My understanding is Don was a Jesuit. He came across nine descriptions with three layers for each and it was called the enneagram or something like that and he worked on it for a decade. He had a master's degree in social phycology or something like that and how he constructed his first book I don't know. My understanding is he did it by himself.

I do know he ran the enneagram institute and chat board and had question-airs.

The thing I questioned within myself was the set part about each type being set in how they positively or negatively or ambivalently identified with the mother or father role model in their life. T thought and still think that was an overreach as a true structure and still question it today in fact I don't think about it I simple think its needs to be proved to be true or ignored. I ignore it and celebrate the rest of his work.

Now I get it your pritty wizy dizy about your system. You believe it's the ducks nuts and for some reason, I presume you think R&H work and system is way out of Wack and is full of crap and as suck is of harm to others. Are you a museum extremist trying to defeat infer Dels? Your attitude seems a bit wacky to me.

R & H identifies the hard-drives as fear motives.

I'm not shore that that is correct. A fear is a fear, and a basic fear is to be avoided, avoided at all costs. I think R&H identifies personality Trates that are evidence of strategies the egoic mind utilises to ovoid a basic fear that is associated to the avoidance of a notion of inhalation. Remember The authentic self has become separated from the self's awareness and an interpretation of essence has been emplaced. The authentic self has no fear of inhalation because the eventual self is not separate from the larger universe. The Sub Conches is hosted by the universe. The Sub Conches hold Union with the universe until mortality exist no more. I think Don Riso work structured nine layers of attitudes and behaviours intentionally due to the synergies of the trinary nature of the three ways a component can be in play as components. Negatively/unhealth, Neutral/of average health, Positive of a higher synergetic order. Plus, thing work in threes within the enneagram and often in nature.


In my core primer for all the gestalts, Stackemup Typology (Enneagram-side) laid out the core distortions for all nine enneagram types (nobody before had been able to do so):

Type 2: "I"m not capable of validating myself."
Type 3: "I am a superior being."
Type 4: "I am an ugly duckling; defective."
Type 5: "There's a gulf/separation between my mind and the physical world around me."
Type 6: "the world is a dangerous place."
Type 7: "God is against me. I am against God."
Type 8: "Might makes right."
Type 9: This point on the enneagram has no in-built distortion; the core approach is vacillation
Type 1: "somebody must be punished for the world's imperfections and flaws."

I don't have a problem with your gestalts, but I do not see them as a genuine replacement for the R&H Nine-levels of Health and basic desires and fears and over all foundational basic desire and fear for each of the nine types.

Type 9: This point on the enneagram has no in-built distortion; the core approach is vacillation.

As a type nine I think this is true but not quite right repression and avoidance is the bult in distortion it is kept personal in the hope to be kept private from other in order to preserve peace at any price. The vacillation is the projection to distract and preserve at any price detection. Harmony is the objective. Is an objective a gestalt? An objective in this case is more in line with a desirous and fear to not feel guilt and shame that could annihilate self, a. defence activity. I know anything about gestalt theory, but I think it has to do with patterns, patterns that larger than basic fears and desires patterns related to egoic inflation wants and needs.

And I also think you get my interest in the enneagram and MBTI and Hole Brain Thinking wrong. I am interested in the structure of mind and that which hosts mind. I like phycology but general phycology dose not tick the box for the specialist interest I have. To be honest with you I think there are only a small handful of people who really have a good understanding of human personality the structure of mind. So, it's not hard to praise R&H and Helin Parmer and a few other enneagram teachers who have released YouTube videos.

To tell you the truth Tomb 1 if you authentically impress me with your system, I will naturally praise you whether you like it or not because you have achieved something profound you have revealed something real and relatable that speaks about the true nature of the Human condition. mind and personality.

As a 9w1 I am a want my F function and my N function satisfied. Truth and what is real is important to me. This planet is full of Loosers you think nines have a problem with being, apathetic. The hole of the human race has a problem with being apathetic so don't get all upset if I celebrate something real and important.

You remind me of one of my best friends a female ESTP 8w7 So/sx, looust clouded her judgments. She won't let go of the bone. She gets locked into her ESTP 8w7 So/sx, and can't beyond it and gets angry with the world and angry with people that don't fit the right shape. Her shaping of the world. her ESTP 8w7 So/sx, lens view upon the world. The F***in vacillation I have had to Lisen to over so many years. I her but she is such a nut job some time she finally articulates her view correctly and the unique view and her clarity in describing it is quite profound. But most of the time she is lost in a cloud as if she is on a treadmill addicted to the exercise of peddling those wheels.

You are not her. But you have a weird way of using the eight function (I, E, S, T, F, T, J, P.) and the nine energies. You seem to misidentify because you don't put content into a correct context. You don't identify Tri-Type you think it is not real and you don't seem to see the different layers within the complexity of the workings of the enneagram.

I say that only via one example that being your incorrect typing of Russ Hudson. You, kind of F***ed that up. Your overcompensation enabled me to mirror to you your fundamental problem. Your systematic understanding is to narrow. You need a good dominatrix technician to encourage you to hit the books and advance your studies.

I'm too busy to take you under my wing. But if you save grace, I will give you a hand via shearing insights.

Things I did not talk about are point of disintegration/stress and the point of integration/and neurosis. These two factors affect the core point energy and the wing energy point in an ambidexters manner. There are three into three factors. Like I said for myself point six is in play as the centre of the fulcrum between the SX in Sx/sp and the SO in So/sp at the instinctual level and point three is in play between the SX and SP in the workings of Sx/sp.

All types in an excited state are able to utilise the subtype energy to take it on and also sit in a unique state ambidexters that would be described as point type one of nine. The raw mechanics of it to be truthful I have not Pay'd attention to it receptively when it has happened for me, I have been surprised and engaged in the active usage of the state energy so I would have to catch myself in the act or reflect on what took place. But something happens and I suspect the laws of three and seven maybe involved. Three parts and seven parts maybe in play. The point of disintegration/stress or the point of integration/and neurosis depending on if it is the core of wing point and the six subtype components, that makes seven parts and three parts. E.g. 8w7 8w9 9w8 9w1 1w1 1w2 and The Law of One the point energy illuminates in this case Pure type Nine-point energy. I can't say foreshore it works that way. The physics must be witnessed receptively but for this one being as a core type energy action its hard focus of the mechanic as it happens.

That is a little deeper than I wanted to go but my point is the two subtype energies at each point are part of a trinary and nuances do take place. A 5w4 can under stress express 6w7 or ambidexters F&T.

This is what makes psychometrics so hard. Psychometrics is very much a physics subject. but in this type of physics, we have to rely on observation and analysis. We can't test the metal to see that atoms it may be made of so to say. And each individual has many layers of minds operations working at once. This adds complication. Lear a model and it becomes a tool a lens. If there are "X" amount of model and an individual only uses "Y' number of models to analyse resalts are argued about because everyone trusts, their own lens and on one wants to be wrong.

I myself I think 1111 C type. Can be 1121 C type but am I right or am I wrong? Dose the minds operations flux this way.

Anyway, it's all interesting and my thinking is what I see as C type you see as Fi. You see Russ as LII-Ti 9w1. I see Russ as INTP 5w4 Sx/so 1121 C type. Tri Type: 5w4 1w2 2w1.

I think we see the say person, but we see the same person differently. I don't know what LII-Ti is, but I do know 9w1 is INFP.

It interesting I have not given it much thought, but you are ESTP 8w7. and you are part of my 8w7 8w9 9w8 9w1 1w1 1w2 and The Law of One the point energy of type nine. We are both part of the relating triad, but we see the world very differently. For you it maybe 7w6 7w8 8w7 8w9 9w1 9w8 and Law of One the point energy of type eight.

Anyway, I have had my say and sheared my view and I'm not really interested in fixation on Russ Hudson's inner world view, so I'll leave this topic where it is at unless you have some authentic interest in my model.

Ow yes you still have not answered my question, Is there an NLE-FI in the sonics system Tomb 1? In your system.

I suspect you will test your will by ignoring my question and ask your own question and replay with quotes and comment statements instead.

Here is an example of when Russ Hudon gets his ambidexters F&T 5w6 into gear.

So, after having watched that I think to myself is he really a 5w6 So/sx 1111 C type with a Tri Type: 5w6 1w2 2w1?

Five with six-wing.
Subtype: five with six-wing; INxP (Ambidextrous T and F)
Auxiliary wing: six with seven-wing; ISFP (agenda focused)
Second wing: eight with nine-wing; ENTP (Mood focused)
Point of stress/disintegration: seven with eight-wing; ENTJ
Point of Integration/Neurosis: eight with seven-wing; ESTP

The mystery continues.

 

[Tomb1]

You've confused LII-Ti for 5w6 in your mistyping of Hudson.

Russ Hudson knows how to market to the mainstream. Well, that doesn't make him a 9w1

I didn't say it did. I said, as a 9w1, Russ Hudson knows how to market to the mainstream.

Russ Hudson is not a type nine. And I can say that with confidence because I attended on of his workshops.

You weren't sizing Russ up with an understanding of LII-Ti. By your own admission, you do not understand socionics and do not know what LII is.

A fear is a fear, and a basic fear is to be avoided, avoided at all costs. I think R&H identifies personality Trates that are evidence of strategies the egoic mind utilises to ovoid a basic fear that is associated to the avoidance of a notion of inhalation.

Temperament precedes fear. Babies don't fear touching a hot stove until they either touch it or catch a smack on their hand reaching out to touch it. On the other hand, babies display personality...while fear is not inborn, personality is. R & H's claim that every personality type results from a reactive formation to a core fear is wrong.

You could use a primer on the core gestalt of each enneagram type. See below

@KitchenFly