Overcompensated doubt: Jung and conspiracies & dogmatism

[noname3788]

In a nutshell: the dogmatic people that I know are not particularly rational. You can see they follow their "gut", as they say in English (and according to the Enneagram too)

Take, for example, the traditional vision that "Marriage is good", a formulaic dogma held by many old-fashioned women. A common value, undisputed (Fe, I think). I don't argue against marriage, mind you, it's just their method that bewilders me: no analysis, no evaluation of the situation, no flexibility. It all comes from a strong gut feeling that the world must be as it always was, or better still, go back to the good ol' days when everything was just fine. This frame of mind goes all the way down to practical and trivial matters, like how to cook a recipe (by the book) or how to set the table or do your bed. The rigid, oppressive Mother, who knows what's best for her Child because what she "believes" it's "the Truth".

Or take a common male example: that "Career is good", a formulaic dogma, held by almost everybody, especially men. The more you earn, the better. A common value, undisputed (Te, in this case). Again, I don't question the idea, it's the inflexibility that's dangerous. And it comes from a gut feeling, and it leads to rationalizing what is already held to be true. And then it goes all the way down, again, to how you should dress, or cut your hair, or what is manly or not. The rigid, oppressive Fathers who doesn't let his Child follow his/her path.

And the antidote? The Rebel, of course! Hence the need to say No, to go against the grain, against the current of common wisdom to question it and find your own. The Hero's path.

It actually explains it quite nicely, IMHO.

In Big5, it's Conscientiousness vs Openness, or J vs N in MBTI/CogFun. Both can be quite intelligent, but of a different flavor.
Think about this: An ESTJ can be quite smart, but will clash with an INTP. I have two friends of mine that whenever they meet they clash in this way. They are both very smart: the ESTJ is an engineer, manager, workaholic, but also a nice family guy, the "buddy" type; the INTP is a programmer, devil's advocate, iconoclast and funny guy, nerdish. They can't stand each other! And they have common interest too. It's amazing.
It's just that the ESTJ has these radical, dogmatic views, like: "Novels are useless" and the INTP would start an argument, and they would end making fun of one another's point of view, the ESTJ thinking that the INTP can't get things done, always philosophizing, and the ESTJ thinking that the ESTJ is just plain stupid.

My being ENTP with borderline J/P puts me in a position kind of in between. I sympathize much more with the INTP, TBH, but have the ET drive of the ESTJ, which the INTP lacks completely. He's always in his head. He is too right, so to speak. As he questions everything, he lacks a proper base for action, some good "formulas" to base his existence upon. The ESTJ is doing much better in life for this reason, and I don't mean just from a material point of view. Healthier and more balanced. Too much doubt becomes pointless.

That was my initial point: I need some formulas to live and move forward. They will be as wrong as Newton's Laws, but they will work, insofar as they will help me achieve what I want. I just have to keep them in check, so that they won't carry me away into intellectual wrongness too much, and be ready to actualize them if need be.

yeah, in the end, this is what happens when your judging functions (Te, Fe) aren't balanced out with critical thought or new incoming information that states otherwise. I think Vendrah's point was that an overreliance on those functions makes someone close-minded. And of course it's traditionalist, tradition is the literal definition of unquestioned formulas.

I like to add that the only reason why this is seen predominantly with Si types and not Ni ones is simply because they outnumber them. If Ni's were the majority, we might have unquestioned abstract formulas instead, instead of the concrete ones you mentioned. It would no longer be outcomes and status that would be judged, but rather thought patterns, principles and rationale.

I disagree with the conclusion though. I think it should be an individuals goal to create his own formulas, based on evidence and critical thought. And to be aware of commonly held dogmas within other persons, so someone can acknowledge where they are coming from, and to ease out communication. There's no need to be either stuck with rigidity or to be a complete rebel, I truly believe that communication should be the key. Both groups can and should learn from each other. Like with your ESTJ friend, he should start reading novels and your INTP friend could learn one or two things about productivity and work ethics from him in exchange.

 

[mancino]

There's no need to be either stuck with rigidity or to be a complete rebel, I truly believe that communication should be the key. Both groups can and should learn from each other. Like with your ESTJ friend, he should start reading novels and your INTP friend could learn one or two things about productivity and work ethics from him in exchange.

I fully agree, that's practically what I tell them both all the time!

Although I can't frame it with Cognitive Functions, I see it very well explained by the integration of the Shadow. The Shadow is negative in the sense that it embodies what EACH PERSON deems as negative. In my ESTJ friend case, the Wise Man and the Thinker; in the INTP case, it's the Warrior and the Ruler. As they are in their forties now and I have known them for more than 30 years (!) I could easily see that their maturation path has been and still is an integration of what they rejected out of their self in the first place, into their self. Now the Rebel and Thinker and Creator INTP can be more concrete and responsible, and the Ruler and Warrior and Giver ESTJ more deep and abstract and sensible in his pondering.

Or you can see it in the Enneagram.
The first one is an 8w7, integrating to 2 and exploring his stress 5 side.
The second one is a 5w6, integrating to 8 and exploring his stress 7 side.
They started very different and ended up sort of converging. The ESTJ 8w7 is more caring and generous, the typical father-family guy-buddy always ready to help (he's quite Agreeable although a Te-dom); the INTP 5w6 is more creative and idiosyncratic, with his second wing in E4.
It all fits quite nicely.
And I am sort of in the middle: 7w8, close to the 8w7 but not quite, as I've always known very well my integration E5 point, which brings me close to the 5w6 friend. And I have my stress point in 1, one of the things that you would notice in stark contrast between me and them - to the point that I doubted I could be a 1 by comparing myself to them.

TL;DR: Sorry for derailing the thread a bit, but just to wrap up: dogmatism is undesirable, but some sort of intellectual simplified frame is necessary to cope with the real world with an efficient, workable attitude.