This is more uniquely 5 & so last though. INFJ e1s, e3s, etc, are less likely to have that problem, IMO.
this is one of those times where the "facts" are difficult for us to agree upon. in my own way of disambiguating type correlations, 3w4 is an enfj type and not an infj type. i see 3, 7, and 8 as the most extroverted in orientation. the most driven to do things in the world. while i see so/sx 4s and 9s that look more extroverted and rely less on sp slowness and self-sufficiency, there's still a big difference to me. i also think 90% of the e1 infjs are incorrect. i think 1w9 can be an infj or an intj type, but 1w2 is always an ej.
without common ground, and without clearly bounding the perceptions we share, it's difficult to talk about features of a type.
In the case of my post, the scale being used is hurt in other people. It's less about social expectations, from my perspective, although I AM able to recognize when some of these have the purpose of not hurting others needlessly. Yes, there is a common language being used, where certain things are recognized as petty, and so to hurt people over them is hard for me to understand. What I usually see the INFJ do is simply deny they hurt someone; which is bizarre to me when the evidence is all there. This is less about J, which I don't see myself as fighting, as it is a Pe viewpoint. For a Pe type, to deny something is in front of your face is, well, just denial. That doesn't mean we always give in the proper weight, but we'll acknowledge its existence.
i can only sympathize here. i think that often times Pe types think things are self-evident that do not appear as self-evident to me and must rely on a ton of assumptions that are sometimes not recognized too. at the same time, i am trying to admit that i recognize that my Pe obliviousness is clearly my own biggest limitation. the thing is, i don't think there's anything that can really be done about it. i can either get wildly, uncontrollably depressed that i am fucking oblivious, or i can accept it and work from my strengths and try to get more comfortable with the extremely difficult to accept moment, meaning, sensation, etc of what it's like to be wrong and to truly face that when the world is so complicated and the scales of wrong are extremely complex. and i can also appreciate that my experience of the unseen, the kind of reflexivity that operates within my own kind of inner vision, is valuable and offers tools to change the world for the better as well. and is part of the larger system of checks and balances that we collectively are.
I also see words like "powerful" and "play", and I get this sense of depersonalizing these interactions, turning things into threats, as if people are just objects in the way, and there again, this leads to a stubbornness against seeing another perspective as valid. It's easier to do that when you depersonalize I guess. It's the hypocrisy that kills me with INFJs when they do this, because the same treatment extended towards them gets them all hurt & upset, and that of course, must be acknowledged! Things suddenly become very personal when directed at them...
this seems like an e4 generalization issue. to be the ecologist, to aim for equanimity, without being as self-aware as we would like to in order to perform a function that is simply beyond us but still must be done, as imperfectly as we are able to. and e4s are made to experience the loss of all changes, the negative difference, that makes them critically oriented both in terms of reason-giving and in terms of aesthetic prejudice. balancing that is the mastery of the e4-->e1 integration. and we're probably, and this may not be how you see it, working with e4 and e1-->e4 (the people we both feel we are battling against at times, both outside of us and internally as well).
so i guess i feel like this is a negotiation
about the negotiation that often happens with nfps. and it's not an inherent flaw to work with this different methodology, because this too needs to be negotiated.
at the same time, i am trying really hard to establish that the perspective of Fi is highly valued and grounding for me. it is able to help me see exactly what you say, the specific effects on others in an informing style that allows you to simply experience their own illustration of their own experience. Ti does want to pick leverage points, identify the principle factors, however, and it can be difficult for us to read you when you do prefer an informing style that is more embodied rather than a pointed answer to a pointed question. i'm consistently surprised that one of my best friends, an infp 4w5 so/sx, often sees ways of modifying behavior that would be enormously helpful to me but says nothing, or says something in a way that i do not see. i just want to be like, you're a good friend! you have not only rights but responsibilities to say something obviously helpful! be more directive, dammit! (probably one area i have an easier time with 9w1 infps than 4w5s). explain the reason! identify how to control the change, not just stay with all the consequences of these continual fuckups! sure i'll learn the lesson, but you already know it, so just share it! teach! sometimes it's worth it to bring to light a negative effect on a variety of people and on myself that will lead to me being hurt, my identity being bruised, etc, when it's for the greater good. i don't think the informing style is everything. it doesn't supply the ethics in and of itself. it is a way you have mastered being ethical, but not the only way. it too has its flaws, for it is best at seeing only at certain scales of activity. it protects the experiences of individuals in spaces over the spaces themselves. constraints are not evil just because you have not been able to experience their full process of emergence. this is the cultural knowledge that we share, that organizes us without our knowing, that binds us so that we can focus awareness in other ways. but infjs and Ni types focus on updating the cultural knowledge that seems circular and tautological and is harder to diagnose causally because we exist through it as much as it exists through us. focusing our attention on that makes us reflexive in some ways that are highly costly to us and others in other ways. but it doesn't just make us wrong. it makes us flawed and incomplete and dependent on others just like everyone else.
but regardless of this, we do go through phases when it feels like it's controlling me in ways that are not fair to the rules and understanding of my own worldview. when we feel judged, dismissed, as if our perspective as we experience it is less important than the way the other person renders the context and defines the situation.
But I think it's perfectly fair to criticize INFPs over our inferior Te. These blindspots are often where flaws are sourced.
i think it's unfair because i just don't think you can do anything about it. Te (especially as an Si user) isn't something where you can get the categories first and then iterate to know the boundaries of the guesses that help you parse out the grammar of the statistical prediction system. you need repetitions. and you need attention to find ways of recognizing this new way of thinking, of incorporating this process that has been going on in the dark and shining a big fucking spotlight on it so that it can connect to your overall long-term decision-making system. they can only be taught in terms of allowing your dominant systems to recognize what is missing and look for them a little more closely, to start to build by staying with different kinds of awareness and cognitive processes that are unusual and hard to locate. i always forget where Ti is, and the huge storms of Ni iteration just kind of wash over everything and require clean-up, restoration, and rebuilding to find balance again. we're all like this, and this developmental process takes fucking forever (in lived time) and rarely reaches a full completion. to criticize your inferior is to criticize you for not being a perfectly enlightened person.
especially when you don't seem to establish or recognize first and foremost that you appreciate the strengths of the other person and work your best to understand the value of that.
Of course it does, and it happens between any two people of any type. I've found communication less of an issue with INFJs in terms of understanding the other than not giving credit for a view. Perhaps the invalidation is actually misunderstanding on the INFJ's part, but it appears they grasped it intellectually, but just dismissed it because it was uncomfortable. I just see a lot of, "I don't like this, so I refuse to look at it, and then that means it doesn't exist." It's akin to putting your hands over your ears and going, "la la la la! I can't hear you!".
There have been sooo many times I've had to resist saying, " I told you so" to INFJs in my life. And instead of giving me credit & lending more weight to my viewpoint in the future, they just sort of shrug it off.
Thank you. This says a lot more than everything else you've said so far. What prevents you from seeing the problem another way, so as to see another solution? This is an issue I've seen with INFJs; they're trying to solve something which almost doesn't exist because they've identified the problem incorrectly. Then they get frustrated when they don't get results. I'm wondering, why doesn't this person see the problem lies elsewhere? Most of the time, it looks like they don't want to see it, because it means a change they don't want to make. I see someone who keeps framing something a certain way so as not to have to "move", as you put it.
i am glad that i am able to say something that means more to you and that you recognize is an attempt to find common ground. but i wrote all the other stuff to do that as well, so if you don't think it's important, it's hard for me to feel that you are trying to understand what i am saying too. because i'm trying to show you both the bad and good side at the same time and then show that they're somewhat inseparable. that they can't just be corrected any more than we can just be perfect, but then can be improved through effort, strategy,
and patience.
because what prevents us from being what you want is partly a limitation of type and partly a swing to the bad side of what we can be. falling down the levels of health. when you feel depressed, do you not lash out at others more? do you not forget how to give? or appreciation what you have been given? i feel like when we lose balance, we lose some degree of control over our behavior. and then the blindspots are more obvious and less integrated. we lose our well-being.
I understand this frustration, and being an INFP e4 so last, I am far from the picture of social grace. However, the issue occurs when someone informs you that certain behavior is hurtful to them, not asking you to "just know" because it's common sense. Again it's no game, no power play; just people asking you to see how you've affected them. I do believe obliviousness is often the culprit, but I guess it looks selfish to me when someone has tried to make you aware, but you refuse to be aware because it would mean change.
to me, this is the most helpful thing you have said to express what you need from us. i agree that this kind of awareness needs to be defended, practiced, and cultivated by everyone.
and i know that inferior Pe can lead to a kind of ignorance related to the concrete effects of these things, especially as we identify with emotion, as we embody value through an external perspective rather than an internal one. our feelings are outside of us. they're not focused by an inner kind of awareness. this too is what i appreciate so much about the concentrated emotional intelligence of Fi.
i think the imbalance also comes from the instincts. so types favoring the group too much at the expense of the marginal experiences. sx types favoring their own self-aggrandizement and self-directed leadership over the wishes of others. and sp types denying that others have needs at all in order to stabilize their own situation.