[Fe] FJs, describe Fe as you understand it

[fetus]

[MENTION=18445]thoughtlost[/MENTION] I always thought it's just a matter of from where you get energy - people or alone. And where your psychic energy flows, either inward or outward.

 

[á´…eparted]

[MENTION=18445]thoughtlost[/MENTION] I always thought it's just a matter of from where you get energy - people or alone. And where your psychic energy flows, either inward or outward.

I am not a fan of the getting energy argument. With me I get two different kinds of energy from being alone and being with others. I need both. They are sort of different. Further, my drive to seek alone time or be with people is dictated by running low on one, not getting too much of either.

The inward outward direction thing though is useful and quite consistent.

 

[thoughtlost]

I too am not a fan of the energy argument because it doesn't work for my understanding of type, even when reading Jung ...it's not about "gaining energy from others or losing energy" So I don't get why that's a thing for introversion/extroversion. I think that is another reason why mistypes happen. My ExTJ sister really doesn't like spending much time with people, but in no way will you convince me that she is an introvert. She clearly has outward energy and NOT because she needs to spend time with people to feel charged. I mistook her for an introvert when I first got into type because of it. The functions are more about a mindset/direction the psychology of the person goes in than it is an "energy" thing, according the Jung.

I could be wrong, but I seriously don't get the "I need to be around people to be energized" talk.

 

[Yama]

Yeah, the energy thing is not very good in my opinion. Humans are social by nature, everyone requires social energy. I think extroverts are better equipped to gather that energy from a wider variety of people, whereas for introverts, they gain more "social energy" from interacting with friends than from strangers or acquaintances. And everyone needs alone/recharge time, even extroverts.

 

[Santosha]

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed in the thread so far. If so, apologies for being redundant.

As a dom fi user, I came to an understanding of fe a few years back that greatly helped in many of the common fi/fe conflicts I had experienced in my life.

It was by not seeing fe alone, but as an fe/ti functional pair.

In doing so, I came to understand that the control fe places on the environment (to harmonize the group, thus setting values as equal) does so in an attempt to make 'universal truth' (ti) more visible.

Fe is super-aware of external values (and will surrender its individual values in the process of the 'greater good') because it knows, on some level, that in doing such it will create an environment where ti can more easily link things together and compare them to the inner model of logic.

Do any of you identify with this?

 

[Yama]

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed in the thread so far. If so, apologies for being redundant.

As a dom fi user, I came to an understanding of fe a few years back that greatly helped in many of the common fi/fe conflicts I had experienced in my life.

It was by not seeing fe alone, but as an fe/ti functional pair.

In doing so, I came to understand that the control fe places on the environment (to harmonize the group, thus setting values as equal) does so in an attempt to make 'universal truth' (ti) more visible.

Fe is super-aware of external values (and will surrender its individual values in the process of the 'greater good') because it knows, on some level, that in doing such it will create an environment where ti can more easily link things together and compare them to the inner model of logic.

Do any of you identify with this?

I don't understand Ti very well, but maybe it's because I'm still young. When I get older my Fe and Ti will probably balance out more, like you're describing here.

I'm not so sure I'm that aware of external values so much as I am the general emotional atmosphere of a place. I would never surrender my personal values, but I may abstain from expressing them if it would create conflict. I have strong beliefs, but I don't see much of a point in stopping some random stranger that I overhear saying something offensive because there's literally no way that would end well. It would just make people mad. This is much easier to do with strangers or people I won't ever see again/don't care about than it is with family/friends/people I'm close to. If someone close to me was being problematic, I'd definitely be less hesitant to express my opinions because I might think their values (which would hypothetically clash with mine in this scenario) are harmful in some way and thus not okay. Though that usually doesn't occur (except with my dad) because I don't really surround myself with friends who I have moral disagreements with.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed in the thread so far. If so, apologies for being redundant.

As a dom fi user, I came to an understanding of fe a few years back that greatly helped in many of the common fi/fe conflicts I had experienced in my life.

It was by not seeing fe alone, but as an fe/ti functional pair.

In doing so, I came to understand that the control fe places on the environment (to harmonize the group, thus setting values as equal) does so in an attempt to make 'universal truth' (ti) more visible.

I don't know about universal truth, versus "truth" in general. I like truth, I believe there is a lot of truth in the world hidden by Te. But because I can look at everyone's perspective, I can accept easily that others might disagree about truth, Te users seem to get annoyed by Ti pointing out inconsistencies.

As a Fe dom, I look for meaning externally. As Fe Ni, I combine it in one great whole. But if i am convinced, I will easily adapt my values given strong and seemingly valid arguments. So I can be flexible and adaptable. And since I know I will never get absolute truth, I am always open to add more truth or to fit in new truth.

I don't compromise my values much and I strive to keep my life in order with my personal values, but I might not always vocalize things if it feels too disruptive.

In contrast, Fi Te has deep personal values, which it tries to make into universal rules, because Te was a definite structure and order.

Fe is super-aware of external values (and will surrender its individual values in the process of the 'greater good') because it knows, on some level, that in doing such it will create an environment where ti can more easily link things together and compare them to the inner model of logic.

Do any of you identify with this?

I am super aware of the emotional environment. I also sense the mood of the group really easily. I don't need the external environment a certain way so Ti can play. I suspect INTPs might need that, since they are influenced by Fe, but can't deal with it usually....

My Ti is most all under the thumb of Fe, anyway....

 

[á´…eparted]

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed in the thread so far. If so, apologies for being redundant.

As a dom fi user, I came to an understanding of fe a few years back that greatly helped in many of the common fi/fe conflicts I had experienced in my life.

It was by not seeing fe alone, but as an fe/ti functional pair.

In doing so, I came to understand that the control fe places on the environment (to harmonize the group, thus setting values as equal) does so in an attempt to make 'universal truth' (ti) more visible.

Fe is super-aware of external values (and will surrender its individual values in the process of the 'greater good') because it knows, on some level, that in doing such it will create an environment where ti can more easily link things together and compare them to the inner model of logic.

Do any of you identify with this?

I think this is accurate and reflects well on what Fe is and does. However, this alone is sort of crude, and lacks the nuance of Fe. To Fe, settling the environment and bring it to as close to an ideal state is simply the sensible thing to do for so many reasons, including the reasons you cited.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

While I think I might actually be the origin of that theory- I agree with Hard that it's more accurate to say it's one of several reasons.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I have been reading much of this, but didn't quite make it through all 20 pages, so apologies if this has already been stated by someone.

Lenore Thompson and Socionics both present a function-attitude model which presents what I think is a truth about these preferences....Basically, if you are Fe-dom (as an example), then Fi is not all that unconscious or mysterious, etc. Rather, you don't feel a need to use that feeling-attitude much because for you, Fe covers it. But you actually would access that part of your psychology far more comfortably than Ti, which would reside at the entrance to the unconscious (ironically, giving it a greater pull on your psychology, BECAUSE it is under less conscious control). Likewise, a Fi type can access Fe pretty easily if so inclined, although like all other functions, it will be in the service of the ego (in this case Fi, or perhaps Pe). Fi and Fe types appear to dismiss each other because, well, they do that within their own psychology. This is true of all functions with different attitudes, IMO. They threaten each-other far less than they simply see one as a less effective way of dealing with that particular function (in this case - Feeling). Most of the time, that means they tolerate and even respect the other attitude pretty easily.

This sort of brings us to the whole thing about personal values. YES, personal values DO NOT equal Fi. They don't define it, are not exclusive to it, etc. They are not even exclusive to Feeling. I think part of this confusion stems from what was originally meant by that phrase. It is often interpreted to mean "what an individual determines is important", when I think it simply meant "determining what value is in relation to the human condition". It is personal in that it has a human quality, not that it stems from an individual.
The former is something almost all people do - they know their own likes/dislikes and have various things that they deem important or unimportant, etc. The latter indicates a Feeling focus, but not Fe or Fi, just Feeling in general. It is using the human experience as the gauge. Thinking types prefer to gauge things impersonally, which doesn't eclipse their having personal values or moral standards, but their decision making is not focused on what something means to the human experience.

So the primary difference between Fi and Fe is the attitude, as they serve the same function (and why they view the other as semi-redundant). This boils down to the part of the human experience each focuses on, what they use as the gauge.
While this is an oversimplification, I think it is better and more helpful than many other simple ways of differentiating the two:
- Fi focuses on the space within people
- Fe focuses on the space between people

Basically, if you wanted to understand the value of things in relation to the inner human experience, then who is your best case study? Who can you thoroughly explore internally with no holds barred? Yourself! The self is the prototype for the inner experience for the Fi-dom. They are using the self as a gauge for what value things have in relation to the inner human condition. They spend a lot of time building and refining this gauge. Emotions are examined to understand what needs of the inner experience are being signaled as met or violated. They recognize the parallels between the inner states of all people (much as the physical human body has essentially the same parts and basic needs but can look very different and require different ways of meeting those needs). The focus on unique preferences is just recognizing how the same core needs can look so different and be met differently, but the main point is that there ARE those bigger values which are a truth beyond the self. So that is Fi....something of a paradox .

Similarly, Fe, being extroverted, wants to understand the value of things in relation to the shared, interactive human experience. How does Fe type go about that? They have to interact and observe interaction. They have to learn about people as they are in relationships, not in their isolated internal states. They have to ask: how do people relate and connect and what are the results of this? I think it is less about a group than dynamics, which can just be two people. This doesn't mean the person doesn't hold personal preferences or values, but they just focus less on it, because that is not their gauge for the bigger meaning (something Fi types are actually focused on more also). To refine that gauge means you have to be in that space a lot. This doesn't mean they ignore their own emotional reactions either. Rather they don't study what it means for themselves so much as how it affects that "space between". How it affects that space is, in fact, often what spurs a genuine emotion within them, because the emotion is just a signal of a value being met/violated. Example: affecting that space positively is met with a positive emotion.

Remember that extroversion is much more in "real time". Introverted functions are conceptual and seek to bypass constraints of time/culture/situation/etc. Extroverted attitudes form according what is happening in a specific context. This is why we associate Fe so much with cultural values, although that is NOT what it is. Rather, Fe is gauging value using the external dynamics between people, so it is ACTIVE. It shapes as much as it is shaped. It HAS to be open to affect and affecting to be an accurate gauge. Fi is less active outwardly; it is resisting affect and declining to affect in order to keep a purity of the prototype (the natural self, untouched by outer contexts). Neither can do this 100%, but it is what the focus is on.

Now, for IxFJs, this can be murky because they are introverts and the inner experience is the part of reality they focus on. For an introvert, the inner world is more real, it is what is valid and trustworthy. Since these individuals will have more focus on their inner world, and less tendency to seek interaction, then that may make the lines between Fe and Fi very unclear (as there are not perfectly clear lines to begin with, as the Thompson and Socionics models illustrate). I think what can help distinguish this is observing the "space" you tend to focus on when determining value that is NOT a matter of personal preference. Is it the self as a prototype or is the dynamic between people? Which do you see as leading to a more reliable end for determining a bigger value? Perhaps you recognize both roads go there, but which are you inclined to take?

Personally, I do feel many ISFJs mistype because of misunderstandings of Fe. In a previous thread on ESFJs mistyping as ENFP, I briefly explained why I think ISFJs sometimes mistype as INFP (more than INFJs would). That is not the focus here, and neither is Fi, but I think it all relates to how Fe is misrepresented.

 

[Yama]

(words)

/thread

 

[Tilt]

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]: that was best post I have ever read about Fe. I especially related to the point about being able to access Fi but that Fe will always be the default mode and needing to gauge other people's reactions to figure out how I might personally feel about something/draw conclusions.

 

[Rambling]

Thanks for this response.

Thans for your reply. It's taken me a while to think about what you said here, but, rest assured, you certainly did provoke some thinking!

Again, it isn't inauthentic. It just isn't 100%. It just isn't Fi. Exploring that those interior feelings seems odd and awkward and scary. I have been doing a lot recently and it is annoying to say the least....

I am learning Fi myself although for me it's more about accessing what is already there, as an INTJ it's the tertiary function. Letting unknown feelings sit around feels uncomfortable but they do have a message to convey.

Now, regarding others, I know what they are feeling no matter their words. It shouts at me. They don't even need to talk. Strong emotions stand out as if the people are wearing a glowing sign. So whenever someone says something that rings false, especially when their words contradict their nature, it is hard for me not to notice.

Yes, this annoys me about Fe users. They want to dig up my insides because they can see something is wrong or inconsistent, perhaps. But they then don't have a clue how to fix the emotional mess they have churned up, and furthermore they then tend to demand that I put it all away again unaided and don't churn publicly for the sake of group harmony; further I am supposed to thank them for their ministrations! Pah!
Though, present company excepted since I don't know you at all, I am generalising here. I can believe you can see something in someone else, but saying that you can see it might provoke stuff in other people which they can't then resolve alone.
Shouldn't you Fe see-ers let sleeping dogs lie? But maybe pointing them out is the Fe gifting?

Again, it is just different. In comparison to Fi, many Fi users are not aware how they impact Fe users, clueless to the damage they cause to others and dismissive of this harm. It isn't that they are bad or stupid or immature. That are just unaware of the extent of Fe world, no matter efforts to understand it. Just like I really struggle to get a handle on Fi world and I know I just see a few layers of it.

I've heard this before, that disharmony actually HURTS Fe users. I struggle with this and slightly view it as manipulating me into silence, if I'm honest about it.
Does disharmony actually hurt? And why and in what way?

I know when others are messed up inside, no matter their exterior, no matter than they have not processed it for themselves yet. It is far easier for me to sense and manage everyone else than myself. And I notice that a lot of Fi users tend not to express those inner feelings, but they really are not hiding from me, at least the ones that are more on the surface. As such, lying is useless around me..as I just know it.

And no one has ever accused me of being anything less than authentic. I come off as the bold confident guy that everyone trusts and looks to as wise and knowledgeable, which can be a problem when I actually admit to having issues and problems because they can't believe it. My parents told me last year that they let me raise myself because I seemed to not need help, even as a every young child. I was just so confident and independent and mature to them, yet I needed parents to actually be there.

Yes, I guess this is the hidden danger - the agape kind of self sacrificial love can be carried out for years, without realising that loving oneself and getting ones own inner house in order and valuing oneself, are all part of the same loving package. Love others in the way that you love yourself, as Jesus said.

Fi needs to align values with actions. Though I have noticed Fi user struggle with contradictory values.....and do what seems to be serious mental gymnastics to make it all fit together. I do also notice that many TJs don't even realize that they are using Fi to decide rather than Te.

I will give you this one...realising that I was actually Fi-driven was revelatory.

Fe may or may not need to do this. I never compromise on my core values. I live my life in a way that has always been compliant with what I hold true. But I will prioritize others or the group more than myself. And choosing to prioritize others is not being inauthentic, but rather it is being authentic to my nature. So, lifting up those around me is more important that emoting the pain I have inside, especially casual acquaintances. They don't deserve my shit. They don't deserve my pain.

But *you* deserve a space in which to process it, a place to be heard, even if only occasionally. That's about maintaining the balance of the universe...fairness.

But even with those close to me, I try to avoid burdening them. Because I know it will cost them and hurt them. And if they hurt, then I will feel their hurt. So, I see Fi users ranting, unaware that they are, and I just can't be like that. I can't do that to them, especially those that I love. I want to save them pain. And when it feels like it will not help anything by expressing my pain, I just try to take care of it myself (or, in the past, deny it entirely).

I came to this point, and my solution is to vent on a low level whatever emotion I am currently processing deeply, and using whatever low level excuse I can for the venting. Instead of bottling it up. So if the work photocopier is out of paper, I vent at it, for that, as a way of venting anger...or I vent fear, or shame, by telling low level stories about recent events. Kind of genuine emotional venting but attached to low level objects in real life, so I don't have to massively trust the listener about whatever the true issue is, in big emotional intense sessions... It's a workaround which helps me, and also it helps other people know me better because they see the vulnerable emotions (and who doesn't love that from an INTJ /dry>) and I have been told it makes me more authentic.

I don't know if I exist with the translation, per se. I can easily spend a lot of time by myself and find joy and peace being alone. I know of another ENFJ male about my same age that spends most of his life completely alone, not because he can't handle it, but because he enjoys the space away from others, so he can explore and expand his understanding.

I do feel energize from social interactions. I enjoy a great conversation that lasts for hours, especially if it is very N.

Yes, I can take N N-dlessly...especially if served with puns.

Fi Te have their own beauty and power and place. It isn't the same as Fe, but that is OK. I find Fi extremely attractive and appealing and pretty much only dated FPs before I married one. Fi users can definitely learn to understand the social dynamics and group interactions, just like Fe users need to turn inwardly to truly grow and develop. The path is opposite, but that differences add spice to life and means of growth.

This is the bit I had to think about the most. Beauty wasn't a concept I would relate to this discussion...and I never have thought about either Fi or Fe as having beauty.
Now that I have thought about it I suppose that the beauty of Fi is the independence of mind and the individuality of thought and personhood. The value is in the individuality. And they seek to empower each individual to energise their own selves, they seek to understand the other by encouraging the other to self-reveal.

I suppose the beauty of Fe is in the caring for the other person or the other people and seeing their needs and trying to meet their needs (the risk being that the recipient doesn't WANT their needs met in that way). And in trying to lift the mood of the other person. Or at least, alter their mood.

I am curious now, because I am not satisfied with my answers on this point. What do you think are the beauties of Fi and of Fe?

 

[Tilt]

Yes, this annoys me about Fe users. They want to dig up my insides because they can see something is wrong or inconsistent, perhaps. But they then don't have a clue how to fix the emotional mess they have churned up, and furthermore they then tend to demand that I put it all away again unaided and don't churn publicly for the sake of group harmony; further I am supposed to thank them for their ministrations! Pah!
Though, present company excepted since I don't know you at all, I am generalising here. I can believe you can see something in someone else, but saying that you can see it might provoke stuff in other people which they can't then resolve alone.
Shouldn't you Fe see-ers let sleeping dogs lie? But maybe pointing them out is the Fe gifting?

For me, I will see an underlying issue and will want it fix it. I will make note of it and wait until the other person is ready or willing to open up about it. If they want to talk, I am good with it but, ultimately, the ball is in their court. However, I have noticed that ITJs are usually pretty private folks so I will prod them but will try to back off until they seem ok to talk about it... Like they need some processing time. For example, I noticed with my ISTJ friend that he won't bring something back up until months after I vaguely mentioned something.

 

[Rambling]

For me, I will see an underlying issue and will want it fix it. I will make note of it and wait until the other person is ready or willing to open up about it. If they want to talk, I am good with it but, ultimately, the ball is in their court. However, I have noticed that ITJs are usually pretty private folks so I will prod them but will try to back off until they seem ok to talk about it... Like they need some processing time. For example, I noticed with my ISTJ friend that he won't bring something back up until months after I vaguely mentioned something.

Yes, this is what I have seen. You open it up because you see it, but you don't know the tools which might help an Fi user fix it - the delicate listening skills, the gentle offering of a parallel vulnerability...so your phrase is true : the 'ball is in their court'.

 

[Tilt]

Yes, this is what I have seen. You open it up because you see it, but you don't know the tools which might help an Fi user fix it - the delicate listening skills, the gentle offering of a parallel vulnerability...so your phrase is true : the 'ball is in their court'.

Yes. That makes sense but there is also the fear of not wanting to pry too much and making them feel too uncomfortable so I wait for a reaction or response from the other party. If my ISTJ friend directs the conversation elsewhere or seems to clam up, I will respect his boundaries and won't push the issue... It's never an issue of "not caring" or wanting to leave him vulnerable, it's more out of respect.

 

[Rambling]

Yes. That makes sense but there is also the fear of not wanting to pry too much and making them feel too uncomfortable so I wait for a reaction or response from the other party. If my ISTJ friend directs the conversation elsewhere or seems to clam up, I will respect his boundaries and won't push the issue... It's never an issue of "not caring" or wanting to leave him vulnerable, it's more out of respect.

Yes, that makes perfect sense...I am more thinking of times when Fe users have pointed out something about me and expected me to be able to fix it unaided, or by their advice...or worse, when I have opened up they have responded by saying that I have made them feel bad about it, and they want me to make it right for them by assuring them that it is not so bad in reality as I said it was. Which made me feel worse than before they helpfully intervened in my business and made it their business.

Apologies for venting, I am citing events long past, nothing personal is intended.

 

[Tilt]

Yes, that makes perfect sense...I am more thinking of times when Fe users have pointed out something about me and expected me to be able to fix it unaided, or by their advice...or worse, when I have opened up they have responded by saying that I have made them feel bad about it, and they want me to make it right for them by assuring them that it is not so bad in reality as I said it was. Which made me feel worse than before they helpfully intervened in my business and made it their business.

Apologies for venting, I am citing events long past, nothing personal is intended.

No offense taken at all. I have found your perspective informative and interesting so as to be more considerate to how people may react to my actions in the future. Your contributions to this thread are quite welcome!

 

[Rambling]

No offense taken at all. I have found your perspective informative and interesting so as to be more considerate to how people may react to my actions in the future. Your contributions to this thread are quite welcome!

I wasn't intending to alter your future actions ; I was merely stating my point of view, welcome or not.

I confess I have nearly boundless self confidence...

 

[Yama]

I am curious now, because I am not satisfied with my answers on this point. What do you think are the beauties of Fi and of Fe?

There's nothing beautiful about Fe, everyone thinks it's gross and disgusting and that the Fe user is shallow and stupid. I hate being an Fe type.

(May give a better response at some point if I stop being angsty)