Faith healing vs. modern medicine? (Moved from "Bible in a year" thread)

[Poki]

Just read through these. I have to be skeptical ( to say the least) about the source. I did read them fairly though. In the first source it's explicitly admitted that no limbs were grown back, just ulcers and hernia's seemingly healed with no actual documentation aside from personal testimonies of religious people.
Eh, the point is we have yet to see anyone ever grow a limb back let alone through the power of prayer. I just ask why not? Typically the deeply religious Christians in America are incredibly sympathetic to U.S. troops fighting wars overseas. Naturally they consider troops which have had their limbs blown off as heroes. If ANYONE is deserving of a reconstituted limb it would be the troops, no? Strangely, God doesn't seem to respond to limb restoration not even for a heroic U.S. soldier.

The second link was just a personal testimony with no evidence and cannot be proven or disproven just like dreaming about a pink elephant.

Yeah, I don't believe them. I know about these due to Facebook and other media sources followed by amen and such and then become stories in support of religious healing and supporting evidence that God can do anything. Blah, blah, blah which is what leads people to believe they just need prayer due to propogated crap that becomes truth. It's like it further hypes up and propogated what people believe and raise beliefs even higher because it feels right or we want it to happen or the other many ways we as people use beliefs to control what we see which further proves what we believe.

I do believe we can help heal ourselves through positive thinking and such without medicine. But it more then just prayer, it's actually believing and keeping yourself in the healthiest mindset possible s your body can fix itself instead of splitting resources between mind, heart, soul, body. Prayer is one method, group positivity can help us resource wise internally, etc. But sometimes we need more and sometimes we can't get enough and we pass.

 

[Lark]

Reading through my King James' version, I came across the following passage -

Matthew 8:28-34

Jesus Casts Out Demons

When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”. Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. The demons began to entreat Him, saying, “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine.” And He said to them, “Go!” And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters

To understand this text we are helped by 400 odd years of biblical scholarship. Biblical scholarship is the academic application of a set of diverse disciplines to the study of the Jewish and Christian scriptures, the Bible. For its theory and methods, the field draws on disciplines ranging from Archaeology, Ancient History, Cultural backgrounds, Textual criticism, Literary criticism, Historical backgrounds, Philology, and Social Sciences.

So 400 years of biblical scholarship tells us that in the first century it was rational to believe that physical and mental illnesses where caused by demons. The germ theory of disease was almost 2,000 years in the future, and neurology was even further in the future, so demons looked like a reasonable explanation for physical and mental illness.

In fact in the first century there were many healers who cast out demons. Just as we have many doctors today practising evidence based medicine, so in the first century there were many healers casting out demons, and Jesus was one of them.

And interestingly, on the basis of this biblical text, there is a registered and approved Society of Exorcists in the Roman Catholic Church. So we have exorcists today casting out demons, just as Jesus and other healers cast out demons in the first century.

Demonic possession or exorcism is not an example of faith healing, if you wanted to talk about faith healing and contrast it with modern medicine you'd have been better taking an example such as the healing of blindness or paralysis or leprosy or examples such as those and contrasted then and now.

Exorcism is a different matter entirely and even the religious who are charged with carrying out that particular rite would suggest that there are more instances of obsession by demons than possession by demons. If you're interested in the topic there's a good book called The Phantom World, check it out, I think that there is a folk and fairy tale society which do facsimile copies.

 

[Ivy]

Mole didn't come up with that as an example of faith healing vs modern medicine. That's just how the derail of the thread those first 20 or so posts came from progressed.

 

[Lark]

Yeah, I don't believe them. I know about these due to Facebook and other media sources followed by amen and such and then become stories in support of religious healing and supporting evidence that God can do anything. Blah, blah, blah which is what leads people to believe they just need prayer due to propogated crap that becomes truth. It's like it further hypes up and propogated what people believe and raise beliefs even higher because it feels right or we want it to happen or the other many ways we as people use beliefs to control what we see which further proves what we believe.

I do believe we can help heal ourselves through positive thinking and such without medicine. But it more then just prayer, it's actually believing and keeping yourself in the healthiest mindset possible s your body can fix itself instead of splitting resources between mind, heart, soul, body. Prayer is one method, group positivity can help us resource wise internally, etc. But sometimes we need more and sometimes we can't get enough and we pass.

God can do anything but God isnt an on demand service either, as far as prayer goes, sure, you dont need it, no one needs it.

No one needs enlightenment either but plenty of people are interested in it and I've heard that you can subsist on Guinness and porridge, though, I'm really not sure I'd choose to do so.

I can understand a lot of pop secularity to be honest, some of the religious practices or individuals which are held to be representative, sometimes because they make a big noise or sometimes simply because they are straw men for religion's detractors, are very poor examples of anything. However, that said, a lot of pop psychology, positive psychology included, to me seems bunk, supersititon for the post-modern age, in contrast with what is enduring and good within world religions.

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Mole didn't come up with that as an example of faith healing vs modern medicine. That's just how the derail of the thread those first 20 or so posts came from progressed.

I was responding to the content of the original post in this thread.

 

[Ivy]

I was responding to the content of the original post in this thread.

Yes, I understand that. The way you responded to that content made it seem like you thought Mole made this thread and chose a bad example of what the thread was going to be about. He didn't- it was split from another thread.

 

[Lark]

Yes, I understand that. The way you responded to that content made it seem like you thought Mole made this thread and chose a bad example of what the thread was going to be about. He didn't- it was split from another thread.

I still think its mistaken to make comparisons between exorcism and modern day neurology etc.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

I do believe we can help heal ourselves through positive thinking and such without medicine. But it more then just prayer, it's actually believing and keeping yourself in the healthiest mindset possible s your body can fix itself instead of splitting resources between mind, heart, soul, body. Prayer is one method, group positivity can help us resource wise internally, etc. But sometimes we need more and sometimes we can't get enough and we pass.

That's cool. As far as psychological illness goes I think there is some merit in positivity and prayer. Back when I was a Christian youth minister I helped one person out in particular overcome his drug addiction by investing into his faith in God by finding belonging into the Christian community. I am extremely skeptical of giving children pills to pop when they are not compliant or bored in school, just to iterate another example. However when it comes to clear physical/physiological illnesses like cancer it seems rather foolish to forgo evidence based medicine in favor of mysticism.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Just to mention. Priests and faith healers in the past believed epilepsy was demonic possession. I'm fairly confident that position isn't held by the church anymore.

 

[Poki]

God can do anything but God isnt an on demand service either, as far as prayer goes, sure, you dont need it, no one needs it.

No one needs enlightenment either but plenty of people are interested in it and I've heard that you can subsist on Guinness and porridge, though, I'm really not sure I'd choose to do so.

I can understand a lot of pop secularity to be honest, some of the religious practices or individuals which are held to be representative, sometimes because they make a big noise or sometimes simply because they are straw men for religion's detractors, are very poor examples of anything. However, that said, a lot of pop psychology, positive psychology included, to me seems bunk, supersititon for the post-modern age, in contrast with what is enduring and good within world religions.

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I was responding to the content of the original post in this thread.

My initial thought for times when people say God didn't answer their prayers is a song by garth brooks called unanswered prayers and goes along the lines of God has a path that will be better then what you can even conceive. I actually think alot of religious people just need to hold onto this and do thier best in life. Learn from your own mistakes and don't say God will handle it or he let me down. You do your part and let God do his.

One of my favorite sayings is "live, laugh, and love" that's what life is about. Enjoy it, don't make excuses or rationalizations. It's life, bumps and all. Do your best if you believe in God believe he will do what's right. I guess it's easy for me to say, harder for others to do.

 

[fetus]

Sorry for my ignorance but who was Oscar Meyer?

Well, I know Oscar Mayer is the hot dog company guy. Maybe he has something to do with this.

 

[Poki]

Well, I know Oscar Mayer is the hot dog company guy. Maybe he has something to do with this.

I didn't respond because I didn't figure "weiner" was the right answer.

 

[fetus]

[MENTION=6336]AphroditeGoneAwry[/MENTION] This is a cruel world we live in. Shit happens. I'm very sad that you would say such a thing about [MENTION=2]Ivy[/MENTION]'s mother. God calls us to be kind...and that certainly wasn't.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I did not say anything about her mother, fetus.

 

[fetus]

I did not say anything about her mother, fetus.

"I wonder if your mother always followed God's word or if she listened to physicians over God? If we choose the worldly way of doing things and forsake God's way, He will let us have our way."

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

As much as i'd like to spar with you, fetus, i am afraid i cannot for fear of infractions.

It used to be possible for me to debate and argue things out here, but these days it is easier to get a fair call at a college football game than it is for me to get fair treatment on type c (compared to the favs)

 

[fetus]

As much as i'd like to spar with you, fetus, i am afraid i cannot for fear of infractions.

Oh no...I was never asking for sparring. But I thought it was necessary for you to remember what you said...

 

[ZNP-TBA]

As much as i'd like to spar with you, fetus, i am afraid i cannot for fear of infractions.

It used to be possible for me to debate and argue things out here, but these days it is easier to get a fair call at a college football game than it is for me to get fair treatment on type c (compared to the favs)

You implied God let her mother die because she chose medical treatment and believed the doctors while forsaking God. That's fucking crazy and you're a sociopath if you can't see how offensive that was.

 

[Bush]

It used to be possible for me to debate and argue things out here, but these days it is easier to get a fair call at a college football game than it is for me to get fair treatment on type c (compared to the favs)

Was outright condemning someone's recently deceased mother tolerated more back in the day?

 

[Lark]

My initial thought for times when people say God didn't answer their prayers is a song by garth brooks called unanswered prayers and goes along the lines of God has a path that will be better then what you can even conceive. I actually think alot of religious people just need to hold onto this and do thier best in life. Learn from your own mistakes and don't say God will handle it or he let me down. You do your part and let God do his.

One of my favorite sayings is "live, laugh, and love" that's what life is about. Enjoy it, don't make excuses or rationalizations. It's life, bumps and all. Do your best if you believe in God believe he will do what's right. I guess it's easy for me to say, harder for others to do.

Well there is a difference between believing in the existence of God, which a lot of believers seem to have down, and believing in God, which I think is as difficult and testing a process as believing in anyone, especially when you feel that trust has been betrayed in some way or when basic trust has been betrayed or never established when you've been growing up.

The Stoics and their attitude to fortune, which was often personified and even deified and worshiped or at least venerated and revered, is an interesting one.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

You implied God let her mother die because she chose medical treatment and believed the doctors while forsaking God. That's fucking crazy and you're a sociopath if you can't see how offensive that was.

I asked. I did not say her mother did or did not because I do not know.

You are putting words and intentions into my mouth.

It is Ivy who is usually rude and inconsiderate to me anyway.