Communication Difficulties Between Sensors and Intuitives

[Mechnick]

The fact that this sentence should end with a question mark, not a period.

Are you a teacher?

 

[Cellmold]

I never have communication issues with anyone.

No idea what you people are complaining about. Hold your hands up if you've not understood anything I've ever posted and I'll clarify it.

Ok jokes aside, people are terrified of being thought of as ignorant or wrong. Yet they often won't make the effort to learn how to explain thoughts and positions. Maybe the metaphorical engine providing their power isn't good enough for the communication they need in order to express a point.

Maybe it's contextual, as in they could be tired or ill or on medication or have some other issue.

I will say the most frustrating interaction is one where, of the parties involved, only one has a decent working knowledge of a subject, but the other parties will still try to insist upon an interpretation that fits their level of understanding and interaction while demonstrating constantly their lack of understanding. I allow that there can be a multi-part way (as in it takes two to tango) to this on the part of the single party who has what could be called the 'greater' knowledge of the subject though. This is obviously a deeper divide in the different circles of perception people have, for ease of communicating this point (hah!) lets call it a difference of understanding.

I visualise it as a ripple for my analogy. The drop (awareness) hits on some subject or other in our assumed sensory perception, it then ripples out, but for some it ripples out further and they see more or what might be called in-depth. This is simplified though, because often seeing more is not necessarily seeing accurately or justifiably.

It's mixed up with the reaction readiness of consciousness as described in my sig quote. We cannot help that. Just like we cannot help some level of emotion in our decision making.

But we can assume degrees. Working out what those degrees are and where they lie is the next step.

See I'm bad at literal retention. I can understand the hollowed out essentials of an idea or theory, but I suck cheesy dick at remembering every last detail of the fact that created it. So I have to compromise.

And part of that compromise is admitting when you don't know and I often don't know or understand. And sometimes I come away and I still don't know, perhaps because my heuristics are out of sync with theirs. But that's confused with poor communication on someone's part when it isn't necessarily so.

In true communication issues, outside of the influences mentioned earlier (tiredness, condition, drugs etc...) it's usually because your ripples reach either further or less or just in a different direction.

Typology creates, to me, the impression that one cannot learn or inhabit a state of being of another from within it's theory structure and that this is inherent. Otherwise the structures of type become null (the allowance of small flexible movements with, for example, getting older and developing some lesser function is a convenience of the theory to try and capture outliers, but it doesn't defeat the essential concept of static nature it is based upon).

It's partly true. But that inherency is a factor caused by our inability to truly inhabit another's position. Our empathy is mimicry and speculation, not true emotive content captured from another. Our innate solipsism and phenomenology isn't so easily deconstructed that way.

We just have collective assumptions, subjectively put out as ontological truths about existence.

 

[Dreamer]

This is how I think and thus communicate:
-There is always some motive or agenda behind someone's words (not in a sinister sense) but they have a purpose to their words that aren't explained in the words themselves
-How you say something is given higher priority than what you say
-Timing is everything. If someone makes a comment in one moment and not the other, I see that as intent, again, with motive.
-Words are used to describe something else, meaning, the words you use, do not directly relate to what it is you're saying. Aka analogy, metaphor, symbolism, etc.
-There are literally "translations" I have of things in how I understand them, and they build up into perceptions I have of what is being talked about. I may start at point 0 with you, but can very easily end up at point 100 while you're at -100. Tell me blue, and I'll think blue. Tell me green, and I'll think yellow. Tell me grey, and I'll think of temperature and shading of color. What you've just told me is blue, green, and grey. What I thought you just said is, how you're personality relates to a "cool" palette of color, or that you tend to find yourself longing for internal peace and calm.

Essentially, the above is what leads me to communication issues with those that do not perceive and understand the world this way. I've been trying to put my miscommunications into a list of causes, and this is what I was able to come up with.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Ne bounces off clouds, Ni is deep entrenched in clouds.
Se bounces off ground, Si is deep entrenched in the ground.

Hard for deep entrenched to follow bouncing off clouds.

Hard for deep entrenched to follow bouncing on ground.

Deep entrenched in ground will find similiar path deep entrenched in clouds and will end up in same places without having to say where they are going. Bouncing will follow each other without as much care about a solid path.

This requires those functions in different places or they clash trying to accomplish the same role differently.

Now clouds have something in common, the clouds...but they miss the ground and cant stabalize. Grounds have something in common, bu they cant float.

This is so much simpler to me than if you gave an anecdote.
The idea clicks immediately.

Do the rational types now!

 

[Dreamer]

This is so much simpler to me than if you gave an anecdote.
The idea clicks immediately.

Do the rational types now!

Right?! Now here is a guy that walks the line between both communication styles

 

[Poki]

This is so much simpler to me than if you gave an anecdote. The idea clicks immediately. Do the rational types now!

The rational defies stereotypes. It removes the stability from Te that is so sought after. Will do, give me a bit.

 

[Coriolis]

Alright, I'll try this, I see a difference between top layer functions, and functions beneath the surface. Not strictly limiting "top layer" to extroverted functions, but that introverted functions are outward through expression more so than by words, since they are introverted. For example, I might say that "feeling a function" or living and breathing it, outwardly translates to behaviors or levels of communication that outwardly show it like Fi, through a person's poetry, artwork, etc. Versus say, someone communicating that Fi internal spirit through a Te filter function, or any other extroverted filter function. So my last question in how it feels to communicate with me versus other TJs looks at this dynamic through this lens. Do you find it easier to communicate with people that live and breathe a function, or with people that use that same function as a filter for some other function?

I am visualizing this dynamic so vividly right now...do my words make sense? I'm frustrating myself.

I am trying to make sense of them, but cannot guarantee it is the sense that you intended. Which is loosely related to my response. First, we cannot link behaviors directly with functions. Any type, and therefore people of any function order of preference, can exhibit any behavior. If we see someone giving money to a panhandler, for instance, is this a manifestation of Fe, or Fi, or Te, or Se, or . . . ? To determine which, we would require some insight into why the person is doing this. I think I understand what you mean by expressing a function more indirectly (showing) vs. more directly (by words). In general I find the direct, outward, mosty verbal expression easiest to understand, though I suppose it depends in part on what the other person is trying to express. If someone wants me to know how they are feeling, it is easiest if they just say, "I'm feeling [this]". If they are expressing themselves through art, as in your example, I might find it quite palatable and even enjoyable, but what I understand might be quite different from what the artist intended. IME, though, that is a good thing about art and part of the point of it. Each of us can find personal meaning in it.

This is how I think and thus communicate:
-There is always some motive or agenda behind someone's words (not in a sinister sense) but they have a purpose to their words that aren't explained in the words themselves
-How you say something is given higher priority than what you say
-Timing is everything. If someone makes a comment in one moment and not the other, I see that as intent, again, with motive.
-Words are used to describe something else, meaning, the words you use, do not directly relate to what it is you're saying. Aka analogy, metaphor, symbolism, etc.
-There are literally "translations" I have of things in how I understand them, and they build up into perceptions I have of what is being talked about. I may start at point 0 with you, but can very easily end up at point 100 while you're at -100. Tell me blue, and I'll think blue. Tell me green, and I'll think yellow. Tell me grey, and I'll think of temperature and shading of color. What you've just told me is blue, green, and grey. What I thought you just said is, how you're personality relates to a "cool" palette of color, or that you tend to find yourself longing for internal peace and calm.

Essentially, the above is what leads me to communication issues with those that do not perceive and understand the world this way. I've been trying to put my miscommunications into a list of causes, and this is what I was able to come up with.

I am not surprised that some of this leads to miscommunication. The highlighted especially will often lead to your misunderstanding me. I consider it wilfully counterproductive, not to mention disrespectful, to give anything priority over my actual words. If I don't want you to know my motives and intentions, it will be very hard for you to discern that. If I want you to know, I will just tell you. Second-guessing at that point defeats my purpose in being candid. And those analogies, metaphors, etc. will relate directly to my point, or I would not be using them.

 

[Cellmold]

No need to apologize Cell, I didn't see your post as an attack on this thread topic at all. Actually, I'm sure what you bring up can easily be applied to the example I gave in the OP as well as other members' experiences as expressed in this thread. What I like about Typology and using such labels, is that it provides all of us a common language to look at shared experiences and perspectives. Everyone's view will no doubt vary, this is all abstract of course, but all of us understands the functions and types to a point where we can discuss common day struggles like miscommunication blunders or what have you, through this shared language. So while I expressed my original thought and started this thread in examining potential quibbles between Sensors and Intuitives, that only really describes this more abstract event between people. We can attach labels of any sort, but the particular interaction I first described is an interaction I feel is often something I run into with Sensor types, though, that same interaction, may be seen between other conflicting pairings in someone else's version of Typology.
Being the outsider and seeing a Sensor and Intuitive argue over really, a shared vision, is what I grew up around since my mom was ISFJ and my dad INTJ. I also often played mediator, essentially translating for each of them, what the other is trying to say. It does make things easier to play the observer rather than being the participant, so I'm hoping, fingers crossed, that I and other people may pick up a thing or two from this thread.

That's fair.

I'm all for using a tool if (personally) it works, I just advise people not to believe it. Which is an odd distinction to make as, by using, we appear to be declaring belief for our model of reality, which involves the tool.

But it's just like the fact someone can exploit a system in society and not believe in it while still using those who do.

I'm wary of that.

 

[helbert]

I have communication issues with everyone in general, but there are some patterns I've noticed:

When dealing with routine matters, I clash most with sensitive people. I don't typically get along with ISTJs, but they understand my communication style when it comes to projects or house maintenance or whatever and it's pretty refreshing. I love ISFJs because of their rationality and sense of humor, and enjoy talking to them superficially more than anyone else, but it's INFPs that I usually connect with instantly on a personal level.

I think where I always run into trouble with sensory people is when I start talking about things that "normal" people consider taboo - when I get the aux cord and "S" people don't appreciate hearing the Mountain Goats sing "hail Satan" - or when I try to talk about abstract or "impractical" things like existentialism or British politics with my ISTP brother - they just don't want to hear it and don't know how to respond.

 

[Yuurei]

I have serious communication issues-apparently.

The thing is, it depends on whom I ask. Most people seem to think that I am a horrible person undeserving of any sort of acceptions because of the way I speak but ya know; I know many people who are so much worse than I am and they get a pass.

And, while it's greater majority who thinks this, the few who do not think there is anything wrong with ( or at least not understandably so) are people whom I would consider more knowlagable; psychologists, for example. Or what I would consider mentally healthy/stable people. I used to tell myself " it isn't me, it's them." and I knew that ut sounded like bullshit but as those who accuse me of having " poor communication skills" all have very similar personalities, it seemed to be the only connection.

Last year I went to meet my husbands family for the first time. At first I was incredibly nervous; they are all very rich, very succesfull, happy, popular peoplar people.
I just knew that I was going to say something stupid and they would all judge and hate me for it.

Nope. They all love me, think I'm quite the charming individual, in fact I ended up playing liason between my husband and his family.

Of course this was quite reassuring and now I am quite sure that is only the insecure, miserable little shits which I am surrounded by who have a problem with how I communicate. Let's be honest, I am not good at communication. I accept that. What I wont accept is that I somehow deserve anymore berating at the hands of said miserable shits who's idea of conversation is spewing the meme of the week a thousand times a day or vehemently arguing about shit that just. Diesn't. Matter.

Problem is that I unfortuntly, do not live with my husbands family. I am constantly surrounded by said miserable shits and tbh, the lack of human interaction is getting very maddening...in the hatter sense.

 

[Dreamer]

I am trying to make sense of them, but cannot guarantee it is the sense that you intended. Which is loosely related to my response. First, we cannot link behaviors directly with functions. Any type, and therefore people of any function order of preference, can exhibit any behavior. If we see someone giving money to a panhandler, for instance, is this a manifestation of Fe, or Fi, or Te, or Se, or . . . ? To determine which, we would require some insight into why the person is doing this. I think I understand what you mean by expressing a function more indirectly (showing) vs. more directly (by words). In general I find the direct, outward, mosty verbal expression easiest to understand, though I suppose it depends in part on what the other person is trying to express. If someone wants me to know how they are feeling, it is easiest if they just say, "I'm feeling [this]". If they are expressing themselves through art, as in your example, I might find it quite palatable and even enjoyable, but what I understand might be quite different from what the artist intended. IME, though, that is a good thing about art and part of the point of it. Each of us can find personal meaning in it. I am not surprised that some of this leads to miscommunication. The highlighted especially will often lead to your misunderstanding me. I consider it wilfully counterproductive, not to mention disrespectful, to give anything priority over my actual words. If I don't want you to know my motives and intentions, it will be very hard for you to discern that. If I want you to know, I will just tell you. Second-guessing at that point defeats my purpose in being candid. And those analogies, metaphors, etc. will relate directly to my point, or I would not be using them.

Thankfully miscommunication isn't a common occurrence for me, and when it happens, it rarely causes any strain for either party, just a follow-up question to understand the other's point is usually all that is needed.
The points you highlighted, are no doubt, perspectives that I've gained overtime due to my own experiences, and have thus altered my perceptions towards others and how I carry myself to a degree. Not a large one, but it has shaped my approach somewhat. One reason words may carry less weight for me than they may for you, is because I've been an observer more than anything growing up, and going to family functions, seeing social dynamics at school, church, amongst my friends, etc, I noticed many times, people would say one thing, but not necessarily believe in those words. I saw this social dynamic and system at play where people would talk and converse within this shared space, this superficial layer. The next moment, I'd observe those same people say what they really felt or thought behind that person's back. Not always bad, but there was often this hesitation to share what they really felt. I saw this enough times to understand that a fair amount of people out there, played this game, for whatever their reasoning may be, that I started to give people's words less weight, and started to question what their real intent is. I typically circumvent any assumptions I may have, by asking questions and seeking out that more "true" storyline we all contain behind these facades. I don't see any of this as deciet on anyone's end, but a learned commodity with others in the most socially efficient way possible. I'd love it if no one felt the need to put up any walls and could act and say thing true to who they really are, but I just haven't seen this as the case. It remains an ideal of mine.

The above, are all the active steps I've taken over the years in communicating better with others, and it's worked for me, but a large part of my approach is also a process that comes more natural for me, and that is to essentially approach each new person as a clean slate. I read them on the spot, within the moment, and the meanings and weight applied to words are wholly dependent in what I pick up in that moment. With some people, I do find them to be more direct with their words, as yourself, with others, less so. I then proceed with this new understanding.

I do have my learned strategies at play, but first and foremost, my natural communication approach is to read people in the moment. On the Internet, I tend to run into more issues since I can only come to conclusions based off words, but in the real world, the whole social interplay is far more dynamic and fluid for me. But I admit, I still run into issues, and most cases seem to be between me and sensors, why this thread topic idea came to mind.

 

[kotoshinohaisha]

Good thing i understand both. I'm such a very understanding person

 

[Cellmold]

I have communication issues with everyone in general, but there are some patterns I've noticed:

When dealing with routine matters, I clash most with sensitive people. I don't typically get along with ISTJs, but they understand my communication style when it comes to projects or house maintenance or whatever and it's pretty refreshing. I love ISFJs because of their rationality and sense of humor, and enjoy talking to them superficially more than anyone else, but it's INFPs that I usually connect with instantly on a personal level.

I think where I always run into trouble with sensory people is when I start talking about things that "normal" people consider taboo - when I get the aux cord and "S" people don't appreciate hearing the Mountain Goats sing "hail Satan" - or when I try to talk about abstract or "impractical" things like existentialism or British politics with my ISTP brother - they just don't want to hear it and don't know how to respond.

I have found myself in similar situations throughout my life too.

From my observation often it's quite literally that it's a subject they haven't thought about very much or at all, so it blindsides them and can make a person feel stupid. And people are very susceptible to their image being exposed or shaken up in some way that makes them look inferior to others.

I've been on the other side of this myself, but my approach to that feeling of 'not knowing' is that I become curious and unless I'm tired or have something more pressing I'll ask questions and learn about the subject. I may not be able to contribute much of an input to the subject, but over time I may be able to by learning more about it.

Depends on the interest though, it's a little up in the air what a person might find interesting. For example I've found that people are almost immediately interested in subjects like gender (since it concerns us all, is a hot topic at the moment, fits well if you twist it to a perspective of first world problems) but a subject like neurological studies and ideas concerning the expansion of our corpus collosum and the relative distance between the two hemispheres and what that says about a division between them regarding an over reliance on ever narrowing perspectives that can only trap us never create new avenues for action or solution (not the pop-cultural shit about brain hemispheres though) is less accessible.

People are mentally lazy (I'm no exception) but I tend to want to know and I understand the power of being able to feel comfortable with not knowing long enough to then learn to know.

It's something that could do with being fostered more in people as in "it's not fucking scary, you aren't going to have to walk around with the dunce cap on because you didn't know something....you will only get that cap if you then proceed to arrogantly brush aside or ignore a more informed opinion than your own on a subject because it threatens your self-perception of intelligence. That's wilful ignorance and it's corrosive."

 

[HisKittyKat]

I find it interesting how the same types or those who use the same functions have a better/clearer understanding of one another. Although I may be alone in my thinking, I tend to believe each type group has their own language, then it can be broken down even more by T/F/S/I. For example I have a clear understanding of FPs whether they are sensors, Intuitive ,extroverts/introverts. I can read a specific kind of language we engage in to express ourselves. It might not be visual to those on the outside, or those who don't use specific functions, however it is very visible to those who do. No, I'm quite sane lol, as long as this type uses 2 of the 4 top functions. I can admit I feel lost at times and have to put in a lot more effort with those who use Ti-Fe. I'm not saying I can't understand them, what I'm saying is how they express themselves is very different from Te-Fi.

I relate communication with expression, I can admit I don't express myself as well as other people. I have to dig deep or give it a lot of thought at times before I can string sentences together. Not because I'm stupid or anything related, because communication is mostly done on a superficial level I find it hard to keep up with shallow related things or small talk. It isn't unusual for me to not be able to find the words I'm looking for to express exactly what I'm either trying to say, or how I'm sincerely feeling. This happens when I'm over flooded with emotions, I want so bad for people to be able to read my mind and pick up on my body language to understand the depth of what is going on inside. I wish I could spend my life expressing myself through art, music, poems, body language, dance or even quotes. I don't consider myself a great communicator, I can get across what needs to be said however it often takes a lot of words unless I'm with people who don't need details and can easily read between the lines.

 

[Dreamer]

I don't think this is strictly an intuitive/sensor thing, actually it's probably just a Dreamer vs the world sort of struggle, but after seeing my INTJ interest over the weekend, I came to an epiphany while we were chatting. She was talking about her use of Ni and learning to try and communicate that to others growing up, and finding a language to make it as clear as possible. Further, she mentioned how she tends to take things in, mull over them, then spit them out, only once she's made some conclusions on those thoughts. This instantly gave me my epiphany. When I make statements or talk to people generally, I'm not making statements that have been mulled over, or even half-baked most the time. When I say something, it is usually just a passing idea. Even if the way I expressed it sounds like an opinion or fact, there is still some wavering there, some room for me to retract. The truth is, and I've only just recently realized this, is that I think out loud, through my words, externally. It really allows me to "see" the problem almost physically, in front of me, where I can then manipulate the mentioned thought or idea, and play with it, as I'm talking. This is usually how a personal brainstorming session goes with me.

So what does this little epiphany mean as it relates to the topic of this thread? Well, naturally, how one makes sense of their world, is by default, how one perceives it. Therefore, what people tell me, in my mind, is also said with hesitation and is given room for interpretation. This has gotten me into trouble with me and my INTJ dad growing up, particularly around money. I was really never much of a spender, but I talked about spending, a lot. Mostly, it was just me fantasizing about buying all these things, talking about them, seeing my options in front of me. To my dad though, these statements were ideas I was going to act on. He would then caution me about spending all my money and ensuring that what I buy is something I truly needed or wanted. I didn't buy most the things I talked about, but this particular example parallels many other instances between me and my dad, and some other people of times my words have been mistaken for things that I've given much thought and consideration on, when in reality, I haven't at all.

I apologize I can be so confusing everyone!

 

[Coriolis]

I don't think this is strictly an intuitive/sensor thing, actually it's probably just a Dreamer vs the world sort of struggle, but after seeing my INTJ interest over the weekend, I came to an epiphany while we were chatting. She was talking about her use of Ni and learning to try and communicate that to others growing up, and finding a language to make it as clear as possible. Further, she mentioned how she tends to take things in, mull over them, then spit them out, only once she's made some conclusions on those thoughts. This instantly gave me my epiphany. When I make statements or talk to people generally, I'm not making statements that have been mulled over, or even half-baked most the time. When I say something, it is usually just a passing idea. Even if the way I expressed it sounds like an opinion or fact, there is still some wavering there, some room for me to retract. The truth is, and I've only just recently realized this, is that I think out loud, through my words, externally. It really allows me to "see" the problem almost physically, in front of me, where I can then manipulate the mentioned thought or idea, and play with it, as I'm talking. This is usually how a personal brainstorming session goes with me.

So what does this little epiphany mean as it relates to the topic of this thread? Well, naturally, how one makes sense of their world, is by default, how one perceives it. Therefore, what people tell me, in my mind, is also said with hesitation and is given room for interpretation. This has gotten me into trouble with me and my INTJ dad growing up, particularly around money. I was really never much of a spender, but I talked about spending, a lot. Mostly, it was just me fantasizing about buying all these things, talking about them, seeing my options in front of me. To my dad though, these statements were ideas I was going to act on. He would then caution me about spending all my money and ensuring that what I buy is something I truly needed or wanted. I didn't buy most the things I talked about, but this particular example parallels many other instances between me and my dad, and some other people of times my words have been mistaken for things that I've given much thought and consideration on, when in reality, I haven't at all.

I apologize I can be so confusing everyone!

I guarantee you are not the only one who does this, nor the only one to experience that sort of reaction from an INTJ or similar type.

I remember that very well growing up - having ideas and not being able to put them across to people. "Finding that language" that helps to make it clear is essentially developing Aux Te. I remember doing that quite clearly as well, and that family friend I mentioned to you elsewhere - the one that died - was the person who guided and encouraged me.

 

[that's not my name]

I'll throw out one to get started here. This isn't a very specific point, but I've noticed in the past that if a Sensor and Intuitive get into argument, and I happen to be within their proximity, many times, the two are saying exactly the same thing and in some cases, actually agree!

I have an INTP friend who will do this. I will say something and then he will say it in a different way as if he's debating me. I will point out that he said the exact same thing in a different way, and then he will contend that he wasn't saying that by repeating the exact same thing with slightly different words. Its incredibly frustrating.

 

[Luigi]

I have experienced difficulty in successfully communicating with all types. I haven't been able to understand why, or anything in common among these unfortunate experiences. When they're not trolling, I seem to communicate best with ENTPs.

 

[Metis]

This is no Intuitive superiority thread (ugh...), and I already have my own thoughts on this, but I am interested in hearing what you guys think.

What are some of the differences in your experience, that Sensors and Intuitives communicate or think, that opens the potential to wide miscommunication. I feel each dichotomy has its own communication challenges like between Introverts and Extroverts, Perceivers and Judgers, and of course, the more generalized you go, the less accurate you will find your results to be. But of those generalities between the S and N types, where do you personally find the most difficulty, or most frequent communication challenges? Personally, I feel this particular dichotomy is where I find the most difference in communication style between me and others, more so than between Fe and Fi (where my second place medal would hang)

I'll throw out one to get started here. This isn't a very specific point, but I've noticed in the past that if a Sensor and Intuitive get into argument, and I happen to be within their proximity, many times, the two are saying exactly the same thing and in some cases, actually agree! But because they are thinking and communicating their ideas in vastly different ways, they think the other is arguing against their point, only because the other perspective isn't being presented in a way easily understood by the other.

So what do you guys think? Are there any cases where you've seen miscommunication between S and N types, and more interesting to me, do you have an idea as to WHY or HOW those disagreements come about?

Thanks!

I've been in a certain kind of miscommunication situation with a few people IRL, a professor and a training program instructor, who seemed to be STJ types. It felt to me like we were always talking past each other. For one thing, if I would say/ask something, the STJ would respond as though I had said/asked something totally different. Meanwhile, the STJ would, with good intentions, keep telling me things that I already knew, while missing the point of my statement or question.

I can be as direct and precise as I can be and still encounter this with particular people. It doesn't happen with all STJs, but I do think it's S/N-related.

 

[Luigi]

I've been in a certain kind of miscommunication situation with a few people IRL, a professor and a training program instructor, who seemed to be STJ types. It felt to me like we were always talking past each other. For one thing, if I would say/ask something, the STJ would respond as though I had said/asked something totally different. Meanwhile, the STJ would, with good intentions, keep telling me things that I already knew, while missing the point of my statement or question.

I can be as direct and precise as I can be and still encounter this with particular people. It doesn't happen with all STJs, but it seems specific to dealings with (particular) STJs.

I've had that same problem. Missing the point, telling you what you already know because it's obvious, scolding you because they misunderstood.