And if he isnt risen...

[Mole]

I feel it very necessary to add that organized religion is a tool for growth, when used effectively. The structure is designed to support and liberate and elevate. But for too many, it has been a prison, unfortunately, so many rebel against it and attack, rather than just moving on to explore what else could help them.

I fully believe that only through the Savior can we be redeemed. However, I know that I do not know everything. All knowledge can be useful and much of that knowledge and wisdom comes from very different sources, including those outside of Christianity.

As such, rather than me saying there is no value to other religious or spiritual or philosophical practices outside of Christianity, I say there is great potential value from such. I fully believe that those who embrace the quest for self improvement will benefit from a variety of things.

Everyone should seek truth and enlightenment wherever they can and don't reject something merely because it seems odd or different.

Personally, I have had many profound spiritual experiences in my life. Many occurred in religious practice. But others have happened outside my religious practice or just in nature. Sitting on top of a mountain as the sun rises, after hiking all night, looking down 5,000 feet to the valley below, can be a profound spiritual experience.

Ultimately, everyone should seek personal enlightenment and improvement. Not everyone will take the same path, but they can benefit from whatever path they take. All truth adds to the overall Truth, but we are often unable to see it or understand it due to our own limitations. However, Christ is the one final path, the narrow way. Seeking Jesus is the purpose of life and provides the greatest rewards.

Seeking Jesus is an individual quest, which is why so many people raised in a church struggle to accept the imposition of the religion. Too many are not allowed to explore and find for themselves. Yet the self-exploration and self-discover is necessary and any outward imposition is counterproductive.

And there is an alternative view based on critical thinking, for instance Israeli archaeologists have found their were no Jews in Ancient Egypt and so there was no Exodus, and we know there were many healers at the time of Jesus who believed physical and mental illness were caused by demons, and Jesus was such a healer who cast out demons.

 

[Ojian]

Perhaps you can explain to me how Jesus' death and resurrection "pays for" our sin. Wool seemed to describe it as a great battle between God and Satan for the souls of humanity, but would not confirm or refute my understanding of what she meant.

Wool somewhat referred to it when they quoted Romans -

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

All of man since Adam (except Christ) have sinned. And the sentence for sin is death. So all of man's outlook, because he has sinned, is death. Once you die, your sins are paid for... but you are still dead. Think of it as a universal rule.

"Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned" - Romans 5:12

But Christ did NOT sin. There was no cause for him to die. There was nothing for him to 'pay' for since he did not sin. Yet he did die in a sacrificial way when he was killed, much like a truly innocent man being unjustly convicted and executed. So in that act, there was a universal injustice done, a universal rule broken as it were.

Even though Christ was resurrected, he still held value in that sacrifice. Since death 'pays' for sins, yet Christ had no sin, his death had value that he could apply to someone else. As one man (Adam) had doomed mankind to sin and death, Christ was able to take the value of the sacrifice and apply it to anyone else to 'pay' for their sins instead. That is why it is referred to as a ransom. Christ can pay for others sins himself, thus saving them from death.

Mankind in general cannot redeem themselves, only Christ's sacrifice can. Christ though can determine to whom the ransom applies. The impetus on man is then is to come to a knowledge of God and Christ and show faith in them to receive that gift.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life." - John 3:16
"And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ." - John 17:3

 

[wool]

The Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse found that 1,006 complaints of child sexual abuse were made against Jehovah's Witnesses and not one complaint was referred to the police. In Australia this is a criminal offence. But the other day I spoke to the Jehovah's Witnesses at their stall in the street, and they just passed this finding off as though it was of no account, and I guess in their ideology it isn't'

I have stopped to chat with Jehovah's witnesses before as well.

 

[SurrealisticSlumbers]

I'm sorry that I ruined Easter for you.

Except you didn't? Lol.

 

[Mole]

Wool somewhat referred to it when they quoted Romans -

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

All of man since Adam (except Christ) have sinned. And the sentence for sin is death. So all of man's outlook, because he has sinned, is death. Once you die, your sins are paid for... but you are still dead. Think of it as a universal rule.

"Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned" - Romans 5:12

But Christ did NOT sin. There was no cause for him to die. There was nothing for him to 'pay' for since he did not sin. Yet he did die in a sacrificial way when he was killed, much like a truly innocent man being unjustly convicted and executed. So in that act, there was a universal injustice done, a universal rule broken as it were.

Even though Christ was resurrected, he still held value in that sacrifice. Since death 'pays' for sins, yet Christ had no sin, his death had value that he could apply to someone else. As one man (Adam) had doomed mankind to sin and death, Christ was able to take the value of the sacrifice and apply it to anyone else to 'pay' for their sins instead. That is why it is referred to as a ransom. Christ can pay for others sins himself, thus saving them from death.

Mankind in general cannot redeem themselves, only Christ's sacrifice can. Christ though can determine to whom the ransom applies. The impetus on man is then is to come to a knowledge of God and Christ and show faith in them to receive that gift.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life." - John 3:16
"And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ." - John 17:3

Death is an inherent part of natural selection, it is how natural selection works.

We can fantasise all we like about a saviour but we can precisely measure natural selection over 4,000 million years with the sequencing of the genome. We can precisely locate any creature in relation to any other creature. And all these creatures including us have exactly the same DNA. We are all part of the same web of life based on the same DNA.

 

[wool]

Death is an inherent part of natural selection, it is how natural selection works.

We can fantasise all we like about a saviour but we can precisely measure natural selection over 4,000 million years with the sequencing of the genome. We can precisely locate any creature in relation to any other creature. And all these creatures including us have exactly the same DNA. We are all part of the same web of life based on the same DNA.

There's no point mole.

 

[Mole]

There's no point mole.

It is tragic wool there is no point for you, but for me natural selection provides such a rich and accurate point that I and other biologists can spend our lives exploring it and coming to understand ourselves and each other.

Why not join us an pick up a book on biology and even join a discussion group. You have such a fund of energy wool there is no reason you can't direct it into biology.

 

[wool]

It is tragic wool there is no point for you, but for me natural selection provides such a rich and accurate point that I and other biologists can spend our lives exploring it and coming to understand ourselves and each other.

Why not join us an pick up a book on biology and even join a discussion group. You have such a fund of energy wool there is no reason you can't direct it into biology.

I have read two books by Richard Dawkins. And much more.

 

[Snoopy22]

If he is not risen, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. You either believe the testimonies of the people who saw Jesus raised after death or you don't. Christian faith is based on faith and testimony from those who were living at that time. Your choice of Jesus and his apostles (plus the 500 others) were lying or they were not.

 

[wool]

If he is not risen, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. You either believe the testimonies of the people who saw Jesus raised after death or you don't. Christian faith is based on faith and testimony from those who were living at that time. Your choice of Jesus and his apostles (plus the 500 others) were lying or they were not.

"Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

 

[Avocado]

The Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse found that 1,006 complaints of child sexual abuse were made against Jehovah's Witnesses and not one complaint was referred to the police. In Australia this is a criminal offence. But the other day I spoke to the Jehovah's Witnesses at their stall in the street, and they just passed this finding off as though it was of no account, and I guess in their ideology it isn't'

Jehaovah's witnesses are like medieval catholics except for being very anti-government and nontrinitarian. They may not believe in hell, but they believe that only if you follow the rules perfectly, you will not die a violent death in the coming armageddon thats going to happen any day now. They are anhilationists--which means that when you die your violent death at armageddon, you do not come back, but if you either die before armageddon or you are spared in armageddon due to your virtuous deeds, you will live forever in perfect bliss on earth, unless you are selected by the Supreme Leader in Brooklyn to be part of the 144,000-strong elite class. The position of Supreme Leader has been dynastic since the second Supreme Leader, J. F. Rutherford, took over from the childless first Supreme Leader, Charles Taze Russel. The Supreme Leader rules by decree and most JWs would let themselves and/or their children die before transgressing the King's code. I grew up in a subculture where all holidays were banned, blood and organ transfusions/transplants were banned (the newest ruler recently overturned the organ ban, but blood remains banned), and voting was banned. In austrailia, where voting is compulsory, witnesses take the penalty rather than vote. That said, their views are so...bizarre now that I see them clearly, it may be a good thing they stay so insular.

 

[Evo]

Thought this thread was going to be about the member lol

 

[Coriolis]

Wool somewhat referred to it when they quoted Romans -

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

All of man since Adam (except Christ) have sinned. And the sentence for sin is death. So all of man's outlook, because he has sinned, is death. Once you die, your sins are paid for... but you are still dead. Think of it as a universal rule.

"Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned" - Romans 5:12

But Christ did NOT sin. There was no cause for him to die. There was nothing for him to 'pay' for since he did not sin. Yet he did die in a sacrificial way when he was killed, much like a truly innocent man being unjustly convicted and executed. So in that act, there was a universal injustice done, a universal rule broken as it were.

Even though Christ was resurrected, he still held value in that sacrifice. Since death 'pays' for sins, yet Christ had no sin, his death had value that he could apply to someone else. As one man (Adam) had doomed mankind to sin and death, Christ was able to take the value of the sacrifice and apply it to anyone else to 'pay' for their sins instead. That is why it is referred to as a ransom. Christ can pay for others sins himself, thus saving them from death.

Mankind in general cannot redeem themselves, only Christ's sacrifice can. Christ though can determine to whom the ransom applies. The impetus on man is then is to come to a knowledge of God and Christ and show faith in them to receive that gift.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life." - John 3:16
"And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ." - John 17:3

First, thank you for taking the time to explain so carefully. Yes, this is helps a great deal. There are still a couple of points that don't hang together quite. For instance, wouldn't every human owe the penalty of death for their sins, and not just Adam? Is Christ's sacrifice considered adequate to pay for everyone? Why is that - because he is really God and not just another human, so his life and death have more value? In any case, this provides a much clearer context in which to view what Christians say about the resurrection.

 

[wool]

First, thank you for taking the time to explain so carefully. Yes, this is helps a great deal. There are still a couple of points that don't hang together quite. For instance, wouldn't every human owe the penalty of death for their sins, and not just Adam? Is Christ's sacrifice considered adequate to pay for everyone? Why is that - because he is really God and not just another human, so his life and death have more value? In any case, this provides a much clearer context in which to view what Christians say about the resurrection.

Every human does owe the penalty of death for their sins. This is the judgement of God.

Only the believers who are living when Christ returns will not die.

And Christ's death does have more value than all of humanity combined, because He created us. I already explained that to you as well.

 

[Blacksheep2017]

Every human does owe the penalty of death for their sins. This is the judgement of God.

Only the believers who are living when Christ returns will not die.

And Christ's death does have more value than all of humanity combined, because He created us. I already explained that to you as well.

Christ's death also meant more because in the human form, he didn't sin. He was righteous and died a death he didn't deserve in order to save humanity. He was the only perfect life to die. Sin=death. But since he did not sin, his death essentially cancelled out that punishment in the way that now we only perish physically but will one day be resurrected again like Christ was to join him in Heaven.

My super intelligent ISTJ hubby explains it by comparing it to the Matrix movie in this way.

At the end of the Matrix Revolution, Neo has to die / become death (represented by Agent Smith) to destroy him / it once and for all. Agent Smith represents the grasp of death over humanity, essentially keeping as many people as possible in the Matrix (or separation from God really). When humans are pulled from the Matrix, the veil is removed and they can see the world for what it truly is. That's the way I interpreted it anyway

About the veil:

2 Cor 3:12-18

12Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. 14But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.

16But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.

Verse 14 says the veil can only be removed by believing in Christ. That He is God. That he died to pay our debt

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

This is something which I've spent a lot of time thinking about, I once asked in what was unfortunately a disrespectful manner which probably robbed what I was saying of any meaningfulness a Jesuit about it too, if they found "the bones of Christ" would there be any Christianity or any Christians?

Talking religion with others, outside of your religious tradition is an experience akin to a famous quote attributed to Martin Mull "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture".

 

[Lark]

Talking religion with others, outside of your religious tradition is an experience akin to a famous quote attributed to Martin Mull "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture".

You feel you should only speak with people in the same tradition as yourself or only people who you are sure agree with you already?

 

[Ojian]

We can fantasise all we like about a saviour but we can precisely measure natural selection over 4,000 million years with the sequencing of the genome. We can precisely locate any creature in relation to any other creature.

This comment was basically irrelavent to my post. Though I'm not wanting to derail the thread anymore, what do you mean by the quoted above? Certainly you are not claiming we have DNA for life from the last 4 billion years, because we don't. And the fossil record does not support your statement either.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

You feel you should only speak with people in the same tradition as yourself or only people who you are sure agree with you already?

No, I just think its a fundamentally awkward arrangement, like dancing about architecture.

 

[Ojian]

First, thank you for taking the time to explain so carefully. Yes, this is helps a great deal. There are still a couple of points that don't hang together quite. For instance, wouldn't every human owe the penalty of death for their sins, and not just Adam? Is Christ's sacrifice considered adequate to pay for everyone? Why is that - because he is really God and not just another human, so his life and death have more value? In any case, this provides a much clearer context in which to view what Christians say about the resurrection.

Your welcome. Glad to help if I can. It is a subject that is often misunderstood, even by people claiming to be Christian. I've often caught myself asking "How can a guy's death that occurred some 2000 years ago have anything to do with people today?" But in reviewing what the scriptures say on the matter it helps me to answer that question and similar ones. And please realize that I'm only appealing to the Bible for any authority on this. If one doesn't have any respect or trust in the Bible, then these explanations won't mean much. Any scriptures I quote are being pulled from the American Standard Version on the biblegateway.com site.

"Wouldn't every human owe the penalty of death for their sins, and not just Adam?" - Yes, if we only relied on the standard that for humans, sin leads to death. Refer to Romans 6:23 quoted earlier. But there is more too it that allows for Jesus sacrifice to come to the rescue.

Adam was created as a perfect human (perfect meaning merely that there was no sin in him). If he had not sinned, he would have been able to live forever. He was warned about this with relation to eating of the fruit from the one tree: "16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." - Genesis 2:16,17. Adam did eat of the fruit, he sinned, and he was effectively sentenced to death. (This applies to Eve too)

Now as a sinner and an imperfect human, Adam had not had any children yet. So when he did have children, they 'inherited' sin from Adam. (See Romans 5:12). As an analogy, you can think of sin being like an inherited genetic defect, but don't mistakenly think that it IS genetic. So in a way, all humankind after Adam was screwed because of what Adam did in passing sin down to them. Based on the prior standard (sin -> death), all mankind is doomed to death because we have inherited sin from Adam.

Now here is where Jesus death comes in. As explained before, Jesus death has value. It is not because Jesus is God (which I do not believe anyways, but whether he is or isnt is not relevant in this context). It is that as one perfect human, Adam lost life for everyone, Jesus as a perfect human was able to buy back that life by the value of his sacrifice. That is why Jesus is sometimes referred to as the "last Adam"

"45 So also it is written, [a]The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." 1 cor 15:45

"18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous." - Romans 5: 18, 19

"7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace," Ephesians 1:7

Think about this too. Jesus could have not died and (potentially) fathered perfect children, getting around the sin->death sentence for those kids and starting a new, fresh race of perfect humans that Adam didn't produce. But all of Adam's decedents would still be doomed. Instead, Jesus submitted to being killed and was then able to apply the value of his sacrifice toward all mankind.

Hope that helps.