B
brainheart
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What do people think it is, depending on the instinct variant?
I think social 4s are very much prone to feelings of shame and sexual 4s to envy.
On a more surface level, I don't envy people, I envy their abilities, which I feel are assumable. I suppose on a deeper level, I have envied, and by this I mean I am constantly aware that others seem to feel fulfilled,while I feel empty...
Shame is a fear-based internal state accompanied by beliefs of being unworthy and basically unlovable. Shame is a primary emotion that conjures up brief, intense painful feelings and a fundamental sense of inadequacy. Shame experiences bring forth beliefs of "I am a failure" and "I am bad" which are a threat to the integrity of the self. This perceived deficit of being bad is so humiliating and disgraceful that there is a need to protect and hide the flawed self from others. Fears of being vulnerable, found out, exposed and further humiliated are paramount. Feelings of shame shut people down so that they can distance from the internal painful state of hopelessness.
Shame is a result of early developmental loss either real or perceived. It may begin in parent-infant conflict where there is possible significant loss or threat of loss of the child's basic security. The child longs for closeness with the mother and father. If there is rejection or love withdrawal from the parent, the child is left with intense, painful emotions. On some level, the beliefs of "I am unlovable" develops and a core of shame starts to build. Anna Freud described these experiences as happening before the child develops language and therefore are not remembered. These feelings of not being loved cause the child to rage and/or go into silent withdrawal. Experiences that cause shame alter the child's basic trust of others and are at the heart of dysfunctional behavior.
Shame Equals the Global Inner Belief of "I Am Bad."
Energy has to go somewhere. Negative feelings and thoughts are energy. If the powerful feelings are not discharged, they are stored in the body. They may be denied and forgotten, but they remain as a negative force and the person goes through life with a nagging belief of not measuring up. When there are many unresolved experiences of shame in a child's life, the self evaluation becomes global. The child has a core belief of "All of me is bad." The child with a large amount of shame who makes a mistake does not make a specific attribution regarding an event such as "I did this. It was wrong and I can correct it" but goes automatically to feelings of unworthiness. The child then substitutes another emotion or numbs himself to avoid feeling the shame further stamping in the belief of being inadequate and helpless.
Scheff's theory is that shame causes a breakdown of the integrated self. The bypassed, unacknowledged pain is not available to be looked at due to the mechanism of denial. Dissociation and repression of the bad feelings allow distance from the shame with a cover up of "I am not this needy. This is not me. I cannot feel this vulnerable." Tension is discharged partially through substitute emotions but the core of shame grows even bigger as the individual engages in unhealthy behavior.
Shame-Driven Behavior
"Shame is the shaper of symptoms," said Donald Nathanson. The unacknowledged thoughts and feelings become repressed and surface later through substitute emotions and dysfunctional behavior. Other emotions are substituted to hide the shame and maintain self esteem. Anger, depression, exaggerated pride, anxiety and helplessness are substituted to keep from feeling the total blackness of being bad. The buried shame is expressed through defense mechanisms that shield negative unconscious material from surfacing.
The typical shame response is a heightened degree of arousal and self consciousness. The person in emotional pain averts his eyes and his head goes down. New information is blocked. There is intense discomfort and muscular tension. The body collapses inward to protect the self and there is a shrinking of body energy. The skin may become flushed with embarrassment. There are feelings of inadequacy and the fear of self exposure. The person wants to shrink, hide or even die to get away from the painful feelings of mortification. These feelings are so excruciating that the child wants to avoid them at all costs.
The transfer of blame to someone else is an indicator of internal shame.
Children who live with constant hostility and criticism learn to defend against the bad feelings inside and externalize blame on others. External assignment of blame is a defense against shame. People who are super critical have a heavy shame core inside. The focus is on finding fault outside yourself but the mistake is never corrected. If the responsibility for blame can be fixed on someone else, the person may feel pride in getting off scot-free. The rigid thinking is I'll be pure if I can make him wrong. It is not my problem. It is beyond my control. I just can't allow myself to feel bad inside, so I'll blame him."
The child who has been raised with criticism and parental anger may develop the shame/rage spiral. The shame/rage spiral consists of getting angry and raging when upset, then being ashamed and going into rage to avoid the shameful feelings, etc. The shame/rage spiral keeps others away and helps the person avoid intimacy where more pain and shame might be experienced.
Shame and the Fear of Being Found Out
The shame-prone individual's biggest fear is for others to find out how bad he really feels inside. There is denial of vulnerability, avoidance of negative feelings that are perceived as weak and an inability to be real. [...] Men who are frightened of feelings learn to wall others away through withdrawing, numbing their feelings and intellectualizing.
Exaggerated pride allows the person to build up feelings of superiority again for the purpose of denying the global negative internal beliefs of "I am bad." The narcissistic individual reduces his own shame by feeling better than others; he elevates his status by putting others down.
I experience this sort of envy as well. I would also say I envy their success, and by this I don't mean fame so much as the fact that they succeed at what they do. This goes for a wide variety of things-
-people who have intense, soul-melding relationships
-people who had parents who nurtured their talents
-people with better style
-people who are more socially skilled
-people who have better voices
-people who are musical prodigies
-people who can write novels (and finish them!)
-people who lived at different time periods and places that I've deemed more desirable
-people who are independently wealthy
I mean, I could really go on and on. If it exists (or existed), I've probably envied it.
How do I deal with this? By making it look like I don't give a shit:
- Intense, soul-melding relationships don't exist.
- People with nurturing parents aren't even talented, just lucky.
- Caring about style is superficial and stupid.
- Socializing is superficial and stupid.
You get the idea.
The same goes for shame. I feel deep shame about my failings, but I make it look like I don't care to protect myself. In this way I think the sexual four looks shameless and looks elitist (because they are countering their envy with feigned superiority), but internally it's a different picture. I think the self preservation instinct also contributes to the air of indifference, because there is an element of self-sacrifice/martyrdom to the type, an other people may have those things, but I am one who suffers and endures in a way others can't understand..
[MENTION=18559]SophiaDeep[/MENTION], I would love to hear how it is from the so/sp perspective, if you'd be willing to share.
Ha! This post made my day.could be instinct, could be mbti type. I think it has to do with function dominance. Fi dom 4's seem to be self critical, Ni dom 4's seem to be "WHY WON'T ANYONE BELIEVE I'M SUPER DOOPER WHEN I SAY I AM?"
could be instinct, could be mbti type. I think it has to do with function dominance. Fi dom 4's seem to be self critical, Ni dom 4's seem to be "WHY WON'T ANYONE BELIEVE I'M SUPER DOOPER WHEN I SAY I AM?"
could be instinct, could be mbti type. I think it has to do with function dominance. Fi dom 4's seem to be self critical, Ni dom 4's seem to be "WHY WON'T ANYONE BELIEVE I'M SUPER DOOPER WHEN I SAY I AM?"
When you feel different (for whatever reason), you may envy others' seeming similarities... but you might learn to get over it. On the other hand... envying everything in your path through comparison and feeling constant shame is more linked to Neuroticism if it's consistent (and can lead to disorders if it would negatively affect your personal relationships for long enough -- i.e. vulnerable narcissism). I'm not a jealous person but I'd sometimes feel it (as well as shame); at my low moments, I'd get disappointed by how much others wouldn't know or understand about me (even if I'd try to tell them).
I just found this article about shame, and it's pretty interesting how similar it is to descriptions of four: http://www.angriesout.com/teach8.htm
For once, I agree. But internally I suspect INFJs are more self-critical than they appear (or so they claim) and INFPs more elitist than they appear (but others DO seem to pick up on this).
The whole "4s think/try so hard to be special" thing is annoying precisely because of this reality....how I long to be extremely normal, just like everyone else. But it feels like a constant battle between authenticity and posturing to be liked and loved. I reject the latter & tend to point blame at others for not appreciating something outside of their comfort zones.
I too am not a jealous person. I had a hard time identifying envy in myself in the obvious sense. When I first read this about 4s, I balked. I thought the relation of the ego fixes to "sins" forced. But then I started to grasp what was really meant by envy... it's more about longing, a sense of something missing that others seem to have, feeling short-changed in life, etc. It's not being threatened by the beauty of others. I love the beauty in others...it motivates & inspires me. I consider them "in my class" (that proximity to 3 vanity). When I feel intense resentment, it's when someone I see as mundane, inferior, receives what I feel deprived of - which usually is connected to love, liking, admiration, respect, significance, etc. My envy is experienced as INJUSTICE. The connection to 1 super-ego and 2 pride is obvious.... and I had a hard time seeing disintegration to 2 pride in myself too. I had to see "neediness" through the lens of PRIDE as a way of coping with envy and shame to relate to it.
I tend to experience "not being known" or "not being understood" as being meaningless to others (not willing to know me for lack of motivation due to my lack of being important enough). Being an sp-dom, I am driven to care for my own survival, and in 4 terms, this means grabbing the reigns of my own meaning. I will create my own meaning; it is not dependent on others. And the sx instinct is the seething resentment at the "ordinary" people who receive the some significant placement in the world because the "fit in". I do feel the so inhibition of shame....but it inhibits more than drives, and I see so-dom as taking a critical eye coupled with some elitist niche-seeking moreso than neglect due to scorn.
Ah yes, I see these connections. The illustrative examples of Proust=social, Van Gogh=self-pres & Baudelaire=sexual work well for me to explain shame & envy in 4s.
I've read that sp-4s are quite counterphobic. Maybe they're the ones who appear the 'bravest' of the 4s. Who knows.
The transfer of blame to someone else is an indicator of internal shame.
Children who live with constant hostility and criticism learn to defend against the bad feelings inside and externalize blame on others. External assignment of blame is a defense against shame. People who are super critical have a heavy shame core inside. The focus is on finding fault outside yourself but the mistake is never corrected. If the responsibility for blame can be fixed on someone else, the person may feel pride in getting off scot-free. The rigid thinking is I'll be pure if I can make him wrong. It is not my problem. It is beyond my control. I just can't allow myself to feel bad inside, so I'll blame him."
The child who has been raised with criticism and parental anger may develop the shame/rage spiral. The shame/rage spiral consists of getting angry and raging when upset, then being ashamed and going into rage to avoid the shameful feelings, etc. The shame/rage spiral keeps others away and helps the person avoid intimacy where more pain and shame might be experienced.
I'd be the last person to call myself brave. But I have a memory that selects for moments of weakness, and courage is the most important quality to me - to keep on aiming for, as short as I may fall. It's kind of the logical anchor for other personal qualities. That is, to express anything whatsoever requires one to overcome the silencing forces inside...and those forces don't have to be fear, but any feeling that makes not doing the right thing look attractive. Shame does that well, too.I've read that sp-4s are quite counterphobic. Maybe they're the ones who appear the 'bravest' of the 4s. Who knows.