But this talk about hurting people for their own good. It doesn't fit my idea of empathy. If you hurt them for their own good you would have to do it with empathy, because otherwise you are not doing it for their good, but to defend yourself. And the old saying before the whipping started, this is for your own good, this will hurt me more than you. I am sure it has been used as much with the meaning "the society doesn't allow your actions, so you need to not be you", that is, without empathy. The stern father is afraid of being humiliated by his peers because of his son's eccentric behavior, or something like that.
It's people being emotionally lazy imo. I have those moments too. I'm ok with people not doing the emotionally proper thing, as long as they don't get on my case about being 'logically' lazy, coz I feel that drains me if done constantly. Hypocrisy, meh. Let people just be who they are and realize we all have got our preferences and weaknesses. The thing that pisses me off is when someone gets rude about you not obliging to *their* logical standard when explaining shit. And then when you call them on it, they're like..oh my god, don't be such a baby. That's just..yeah. Take a look in the mirror.
I just don't get how oblivious a lot of people seem to be to the feelings of others. How can you say/do certain types of things and not understand, or suspect, that you're hurting the other person? I know NFs are supposed to be hyper-sensitive to this kind of thing and we're supposed to have a natural advantage...but I don't know that this is even all that type-related. If you have that big of a blind spot to other people's feelings or the types of things that are likely to hurt, you've got a problem - most likely that you just don't care that much about anyone's feelings except your own. Apparently even saying "sorry if that came across as insensitive" is too damn hard for so many people.
Hm, I'm not having a good week...
I find that knowing where people comes from helps a lot. I used to think that a lot of people were insensitive (but I never really cared), but then I realized that some of these people didn't know any better or didn't have the intent of offending. I think that jenocyde made a good point. She treats people as she wants to be treated; and is shocked when they get offended. I think that this is what a lot of T types do. All that I personally have to do to not get offended by people when they don't mean it is to simply tell myself that. Have some empathy for those who are like that. After I started to do that I started to enjoy T's a lot more, and I think that they enjoy me a lot more too.
Another thing that I learned from having this mindset is that my feelings aren't the most important thing in the world. If you ignore your feelings social situations (which usually aren't right due to subjectivity and the totally different ways of seeing things) and get to the core of the interaction, then there you go. Hell, ignoring my feelings whenever possible has gotten me the best results; and in seeing that result my feelings are better.
I also think it's funny how a lot of people complain about people who aren't as conscious of feelings (mostly NFs), but they themselves don't have the capacity to be empathetic enough to understand where they are coming from with not being conscious of other's emotions.
It's just another thing to deal with. You can't "fix" something like that in a person. It's just another character trait. That's what typology is all about. Some people are just genuinely bad with other people's inner feelings (E_TPs being the worst), and as you can see this manifests itself in various ways.
Also, @ SilkRoad- don't be around people who make you feel unsettled. I'm just sharing my experience and perspective, and I'm not trying to accuse you of anything. If these kinds of people make you feel bad, then by all means don't hang around them. No need to be masochistic.
I really agree with this post. I learned when I've let go of "personal" offense by realizing it's not about me, then I stopped being offended by about 85% of what people say and do. There are some situations where it's difficult to let go of this attitude (distinguishing between what people mean and what they don't mean...basically what notsweetynice alluded to), but in my casual interactions I'm going to have to say I agree with the ExTPs who've chimed in.
I really really wish that all NFs would realize this!
A lot of the time I don't hang out with strong feelers because it's exhausting to have to tiptoe through the minefield and to FORCE myself to think "will this be construed as offensive?" before speaking when I'm not even used to thinking before speaking!
I mean, I try, but too much time with someone who's super touchy will always leave me running off to hide and calling my ESTJ best friend to bitch (she does the same to me)
My sis and I had this argument over the holidays- she got mad at me for some comment that I'd made because she misconstued it and took it personally- she yelled at me and I didn't even realize I'd done anything wrong!
I wanted to be clear that I know your statement is balanced showing the issue from the other view.I always approve of toonia's posts and their implications. I just wish she made more of them.
Your entire post wasI find that knowing where people comes from helps a lot. I used to think that a lot of people were insensitive (but I never really cared), but then I realized that some of these people didn't know any better or didn't have the intent of offending...
I really agree with this post. I learned when I've let go of "personal" offense by realizing it's not about me, then I stopped being offended by about 85% of what people say and do. There are some situations where it's difficult to let go of this attitude (distinguishing between what people mean and what they don't mean...basically what notsweetynice alluded to), but in my casual interactions I'm going to have to say I agree with the ExTPs who've chimed in.
I really really wish that all NFs would realize this!
A lot of the time I don't hang out with strong feelers because it's exhausting to have to tiptoe through the minefield and to FORCE myself to think "will this be construed as offensive?" before speaking when I'm not even used to thinking before speaking!
I mean, I try, but too much time with someone who's super touchy will always leave me running off to hide and calling my ESTJ best friend to bitch (she does the same to me)
My sis and I had this argument over the holidays- she got mad at me for some comment that I'd made because she misconstued it and took it personally- she yelled at me and I didn't even realize I'd done anything wrong!
I really really wish that all NFs would realize this!
A lot of the time I don't hang out with strong feelers because it's exhausting to have to tiptoe through the minefield and to FORCE myself to think "will this be construed as offensive?" before speaking when I'm not even used to thinking before speaking!
I mean, I try, but too much time with someone who's super touchy will always leave me running off to hide and calling my ESTJ best friend to bitch (she does the same to me)
My sis and I had this argument over the holidays- she got mad at me for some comment that I'd made because she misconstued it and took it personally- she yelled at me and I didn't even realize I'd done anything wrong!
Heh, I'm probably one of those people you're talking about. We don't think we're being rude, we think you're being overly sensitive. We don't say "sorry if that came across as insensitive" because we don't think we were being insensitive. Kind of impossible to apologize if you're not aware that you need to.
You know it's really as simple as "if you don't consider our feelings, we won't consider your thoughts." I was trying desperately to explain this to a TP on this forum, but he didn't really get it.
*Yes, I did a no-no. I haven't read the entire thread.
Well Pettycure also went to say that she has a good bit of common courtesy... that's considerate enough right? It's not as if they are TRYING not to consider your feelings...
Most __TPs need some sort of Fe like display to do Fi. "So they reacted this way, maybe I should/shouldn't do that again." Even if they way you react is subtle, like changing the subject or getting defensive etc. That's usually enough of an Fe signal for an E_TP. I personally try to indirectly let people know not to do a certain thing again if it really irks me.
My point: I don't really understand why Feelers have to be the only ones to adjust here.
This is what annoys me also. It's like, "suck it up and deal with it because that's the way I am". Why no adjustment on their end? It works both ways.
I suck at this to be honest.
The main reason why I can hurt a person is because I will not give emotional support when needed. Instead I will try to create a plan to help the person. What usually end with a mess.
I can't even remember how many times I have made this mistake.
However just like Whatever I don't have intentions to harm people it is just I try to help people on different way than most. Also becuse of Ni I can give them multiple perspective of the problem what people often take as criticism or disrespect, especially since I don't get too excited in the process.
Everyone is guilty of this. The main difference may be the manner in giving unwanted advice, but I can't think of anyone who has not made this error (myself included). Think of how much easier it is to just listen, and you actually get more credit for being a good friend, muwhahaha
This can be really helpful actually, if you just let the person steam a bit, don't criticize their feelings, and explore with questions before assuming you know what they need. I know for me, I often need a unique perspective, not trite & oversimple advice.