Hi there, :hi:
Am I correct in assuming most of your reply to the quoted posts above pertain to Azure Flame?
It seems like that is the case, so I'm responding mostly to the more general material in your reply - that which speaks to the nature of ESTPs.
Some of what you wrote about ESTP commonalities seems reasonable, however ALOT of your reply is (1) somewhat derogatory, (2) not backed by any links to reputable research, and (3) simply not true - thus I'm addressing them.
We do not know each other, so I'm assuming positive intent
(or at worst ignorance) on your part unless given reason to feel otherwise.
<--HINT: This is very typical for ESTPs to do, BTW...
The reason I'm stating this upfront is that I want you to understand the perspective I'm speaking from, and not to assume I'm chewing you or out or having a knee jerk reaction to the parts of your reply that I don't agree with.
FYI - for parts of your replies that I don't think were directed at me will have
strikethrough font.
Let's begin...
Do you consider this a problem? Artisans are the most freedom-oriented house, with ESTPs pioneering most of all in that regard. I'd expect a lot more ESTPs to identify with something like this.
Yes, Artisans and especially ESTPs are very freedom oriented.
In the case of ESTPs, it is necessary for us to maintain a fair amount of freedom in our lives in order to capitalize on our natural strengths - that being solving real world problems via working with and through others. Yes, we do more than promote ideas, we actually do some
"real work" too. Shocking, I know.
And, I'd like to clarify that the path to a successful life for most people
(not just ESTPs) is best found by identifying one's natural strengths, and then creating a life that allows those strengths to be expressed, and a profession that allows one's natural strengths to be utilized more often than not.
This does not happen overnight for most people; it simply takes time.
Sure, some people get lucky and figure out much of what they need to in this regard younger than most, and some people take forever to figure it out, but this is the case for much of the maturation process. Most people are somewhere in the bell curve, but there are always outliers in either direction.
A hypothetical. What happens if you intentionally were to have yourself 'bombarded' with the tertiary and inferior? I would expect these to 'fix' that effect.
This is an interesting hypothetical.
Can you please provide an example of how an ESTP could have themselves bombarded with their tertiary Fe and inferior Ni so that I may reply accordingly?
But why would you? Maybe you've already gone too deep into those matters so that they're shaking your resolve.
As stated above, this doesn't apply to me so I struck it out, just including it for completeness...
The MO of artisans is to steer clear from anything that tampers with their instincts. Especially early on in their lives.
What do you mean by
"the MO of artisans is to steer clear from anything that tampers with their instincts?"
Can you please clarify that statement? It doesn't make sense to me.
Two things I've noticed about the Artisans I know IRL: (1) they say it like it is, and (2) they do what works.
Artisans are practical people despite their ability to live a very Epicurean lifestyle if desired.
Will we approach the endeavors of our lives from the perspective that we favor most? Yes, and that is the case for nearly all people.
In the case of ESTPs, our instincts are to influence situations to create favorable outcomes for ourselves, others, and if self-actualized also the greater good.
ESTPs are not at all avoidant, if anything we are much more prone to being assertive
(and confrontational as needed) if we don't like the way something is going, and steer it in a direction we deem acceptable.
This is typically why they're as successful as they are in their undertakings.
That's part of the key to the success of ESTPs.
It is also important to not overlook other major contributing factors, such as our intelligence, charm, wit, incredibly good looks and humility.
This also often involves illegal approaches or ones that do harm to others.
I Call BULLSHIT On This.
Any credible source material to back up? I doubt it.
You seem to attribute the success of ESTPs with foul play - which is simply ridiculous.
What do you mean by
"illegal approaches?"
Are you inferring that all ESTPs are drug dealers, pimps, and bank robbers? Because that would be completely ignorant.
Worldly success is typically taken from somewhere.
I disagree. Worldly success is more likely to manifest in the life of an individual who is focused, adaptive, hardworking and innovative - and even more so if that person is able to create business environments that are a
"Win, Win" for themselves and their peers/partners/clients/etc.
Fortune favors the bold. Opportunity only knocks once. Most ESTPs are very aware of these two fundamental truths, and have a disposition and demeanor that allows them to an agent of change in their environment.
Machiavellian assholes do not fare as well in the business world as you think.
Being a controlling and abusive asshole will only get you so far.
Being innovative, willing to take reasonable risks, and having a knack for building alliances with others will get you a lot farther, a lot quicker.
A lot of them end up doing time or not even surviving.
I Call BULLSHIT On This Too.
Got any credible stats?
Not surviving? Where the hell did that come from? ESTPs are the ultimate realists.
Surviving is a life skill learned by most ESTPs very early on.
We pay attention to our environment beyond what most people consider necessary, and are typically able to interact with it, adapt to it and influence it at lightning quick speed.
But hey, risk is a pretty crucial keyword in their lives. And getting around the law significantly accelerates things.
Did someone who you think was an ESTP fuck you over at some point in your life and you're all bent out of shape over it?
ESTPs are not mindless adrenaline junkies. We are actually very calculating when it comes to risk, and able to do so on the fly objectively and with astounding accuracy.
What is your hang up with ESTPs
"getting around the law?"
It really doesn't sound too bad next to climbing the corporate ladder, which typically feels like suffocation to them.
What doesn't sound too bad, being a professional criminal as opposed to climbing the corporate ladder?
If so, that was a stupid thing to say IMHO.
My career spans over twenty years at this point.
I've worked in corporate America, worked for the government, and also done a few entrepenuerial things here and there - all of which has been enjoyable overall, and hardly ever
"suffocating."
ESTPs don't like to be bored, because they have a natural joy for life, and are thus naturally inclined to make all they do as fun as possible, for themselves and for others involved also.
So, your statement above doesn't add up to a whole lot in all honesty.
As this immense vitality wanes, so do their abilities for the larger-than-life goals.
Again, you are projecting a baseless negative stereotype on everyone who is an ESTP, which is (1) simply poor form to do for anything, so stop it - you're making yourself look bad, and (2) Last time I checked ESTPs have significant endurance of vitality. Many ESTPs have very high expectations of themselves, and thus target larger-than-life goals. Why wouldn't a person who knows their capabilities, is self-confident, and has intellect and experience commensurate with pulling off a targeted objective do exactly that? So, as far as career vitality I'd wager most ESTPs are pretty damn resilient and adaptable, regardless of if they are just beginning their career or more experienced.
So far as physical vitality, I'm 40 years old and I'm in better shape than most people you will ever meet.
umpyouup:
Yes, many ESTPs are athletic, and if not then active as hell - we need to burn off our surplus energy each day, and thus live lives that allow that to happen. It's good for us, we know it, so we do it. Not very hard to figure out really.
Also, with regard to academic or professional pursuits, I get an immense amount of difficult work done in a short amount of time, because
(like most other ESTPs) I'm able to make my prior experiences relevant in the context of my present endeavors, and I know what to do myself, and who should be doing other parts of a given project because their expertise is beyond mine in a particular category and it would stupid for me to waste my time to not delegate such work. ESTPs are experts at figuring out who knows how to do what, and dividing up large, complex tasks and then ultimately find the person best fit to do each component of the work according to their skills & natural abilities.
Where do they even get the idea to 'grow up'? Maybe all the 'debris' they pick up dealing with people and society eventually gets to them.
Perhaps the majority of ESTPs are functional people with a healthy outlook on life?
What a fucking shocker!
"Growing up" doesn't mean becoming a lifeless slave.
If I had to define
"Growing up" I'd simply break it down to: (a) developing yourself into a mature and well mannered person, (b) becoming and remaining economically self-sufficient, and (c) living your life for something that is beyond you - literally serving the greater good as it makes sense to you.
I've done all three, and had a blast doing it, and will continue to do so.
In fact, I honestly can't think of a single ESTP that I know IRL who isn't happy with their life overall.
So again, I don't know where you are getting your ideas about ESTPs from, but they are immensely inaccurate and filled with negative stereotypes.
Or maybe there is an evolutionary process involved due to which they gravitate to the whole 'growing up' ordeal.
All people, regardless of their MBTI type, take time to mature and establish their lives. Period.
But isn't that literally like a lifetime away if that is the case?
Was this directed at Azure Flame? If so it might make sense to me.
If not, the above is unclear and poorly written so I'm not going to waste my time even trying to figure out what you meant.
In the end, it's up to you to decide how to go about the matter.
This is true; life is about two things: (1) Choices, and (2) Accountability.
Each person must choose how they wish to live, and be accountable for their actions.
-Halla74