Well, at least he's trying to get somewhere, and I don't see the harm in that. SW, the thing is that you are still struggling to let go of the T-bias at times, but I do very much enjoy that you are attempting and actually progressing in your insights of NFs. And yes, I realize this sounds condescending, but it's not meant that way, in fact, it's meant to really express that I appreciate your efforts. I probably come off the same way to you.
Cool, and I appreciate your calm, accepting language and encouraging attitude.
The thing is that Pheonix and Lauren are probably (correct me if I'm wrong, girls) just a bit annoyed at the fact that you are still unaware of some of the bias you hold on to as true, and therefore aren't sure/hopeful that this debate is useful. I personally disagree
Fair. I think all people are always a bit annoyed at each other for not grasping each other's subjective perceptions, which is the very source of all disagreements.
Also, because you generalize using MBTI (as I am btw atm), it means you are at risk of ignoring the traits of individuals as there are indeed differences in the types. And you need to factor in those traits in order to be able to relate to a person and understand where they are coming from.
I don't think it does because I don't interpret generalizations as specific critiques of every single individual member of a group.
This is not meant to be hurtful, but NFs are also the temperament with the biggest reputation for complaining about being MBTI-categorized. I'm not the only person with a perception that NFs take type criticism more personally than other types, feeling that their personal individuality/freedom of expression is being threatened.
"You're ENFP" doesn't mean "I guarantee that 100% of this arbitrary list of supposedly ENFP traits is true of you personally," it just means, "You seem to fit closer to this arbitrary list of traits I decided are called 'ENFP' a little better than any of the other fifteen."
This doesn't mean I can't differentiate between different people within the same MBTI group. I'm simultaneously discussing NFs as a group, referring to things that they seem to show an overall propensity for on average, and then also discussing individual things with certain individuals.
On the other hand, your reply to Pheonix, though understandable, shows that you still view NFs as deliberately pushing your buttons and manipulating. Thats..not what it's about. And btw, that is in fact again intuiting those intentions/feelings/motivations we've talked about. Next time ask trt asking what she's trying to say, explaining it further, before you jump to conclusions. I'm not setting the greatest example at this time, I know, but I did put in words as 'probably' and asked them to correct me if I was wrong, which, I hope, helps, if I were to be wrong in fact.
No, I think your response here is a result of mistaken context again, as in the above case.
I don't "view NFs as deliberately pushing my buttons"; I view FireyPheonix as deliberately pushing my buttons
in this one particular case, and using a characteristically NF method of doing it. That's an important distinction.
I have a history with her and almost 100% of our posts to each other have been venomous. How am I supposed to interpret statements like "You'll probably miss my point though"? In your opinion, does her post sound condescending? You would understand this context better if you'd read the majority of my correspondence with this person.
I doubt that Phoenix really wants to start a yuhhuh-nuh uh-debate with you. From what I can tell..(and again, correct me if I'm wrong, Phoenix), she's probably just sceptical that you'll get it and is a bit aggrevated at the way you relate and have been relating and generalizing the flaws you perceive to be NF to everyone who is in fact NF
No, she's more just annoyed with what she perceives as unfair criticisms of NFs and looking for ways to see if she can make me look dumb to other Fs. Ts do it too.
Of course, the brilliance in the F approach in this situation is that they're so much better at emotional language that they can easily "dodge" if someone does respond negatively and look like a deer in headlights: "GOSH, I don't understand AT ALL why this terrible person would just attack me at random!"
I can't recall having seen
you personally do this, but is it your contention that it's not a commonly utilized tactic here? (Unfortunately I would have to heavily disagree, were that the case.)
I remain hopeful that you will get the hang of this and because you are in fact trying, you've already scored a lot of points with me, though I can understand the other NFs reaction on this too. Meanwhile, this is very useful to me too as it allows me a glimpse into what happens on your side and can help me disable that defensive knee-jerk that tends to rear its ugly head on occasion
That defensive knee-jerk is pretty much what we both do to each other all the time. (Like in Fiery's post up there.)
Question: Could it be useful to ask people who are in fact rather balanced in their type to step in here and buffer? What I mean is, since they've already been through this process, they have a different view but can still relate to what it was like? And maybe that way we can learn from them how to approach those that are still in the process of figuring it out?
Yep, Jennifer has already assumed that role to some degree. You're being helpful too, so thanks.
Coz let's face it, we can work this out now, but us understanding it, doesn't mean the problem gets solved..it just gets solved between us. And in that, Lauren and Phoenix have a valid point. It *has* been discussed at length and will keep being discussed because there will always be new people that still need to figure this out. And you will encounter those as well. So knowing how to approach them and as such not provoke them could go a long way as to getting along with them, I'd say.
Yup, that's what I figured.