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If God doesn't exist then how was everything/the earth created?

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Au contraire, we create our tools, then our tools create us, we create our ideologies then our ideologies create us, we create our religions then our religions create us, we create our Gods then our Gods create us. So beware of what we wish for. Whatever we worship we become, whether it is our ideology, our technology, our religions, or our Gods.
You are in agreement with me. Religions and ideologies are double-edged swords, tools that can be used for good or evil. Even if God is real, s/he didn't create religions, we did. They are for us. God surely doesn't need them.
 

Virtual ghost

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This will perhaps be too brutal for some people but I will be straight forward. Since for me the question of God was always just simplistic and even unimaginative answer to the hard questions.




One of the fundamental problems is that people have a wrong picture of "nothing" and unability to think outside of passage of time. Most people see 0 as simply 0 while in fact 0 can be summation of -1 and 1 (or - and 27) and therefore if you at the same time create universe and anti universe you basically got something out of nothing. However the problem is that if God created universe then who created God ? You can say that god is "perfect" and doesn't need a creator but then you can say the same about the universe. Especially if time was created in the big bang and therefore asking what was before big bang is pretty much like asking what is northern of North pole.


However there is a whole array of arguments that cause serious doubt if this reality is created by the God people believe in.


1. Nuclear energy - if religions are correct God loves us and wish as well. However it remains very unclear why would he build in the concept of nuclear energy and atoms deeply into the reality, especially since this allows individuals to wipe out whole populations of humans, plants and animals. What means that God is either not fully good, he isn't almighty or it doesn't exist.


2. When a person takes a look at how this reality looks like it becomes very questionable if the purpose of this reality is life.
The thing is that surface of planet Earth is one very special place, because 99,999% of this reality is actually radioactive vacuum that has temperature hundreds of degress bellow freezing point. Not to mention that our solar system is full of dangerous asteroids and comets, barren empty worlds where nothing seems to live and our main source of energy is nuclear (Sun). Therefore it causes skin cancer if you are not careful, plus it messes with electronic equipment through it's activity. Also the distances that are between star systems are so large that even the closest star is hundereds of thousands of years worth of travel away, if you go with modern technology. Extra problematic factor is that Oort cloud of debris is around our solar system and even if we ever develope faster transporation the odds are that any ships will crash with comets and debris of the Oort coud, what can cause destruction of the ship. Just a few light days away from the Sun the conditions are pretty much "eternal darkness". Therefore if you just fly at 1% of speed of light you go at about 3 000 kilometers in second and you will need about 430 years to the nearest star with constant speed. However imagine what will happen if you hit just a rock or comet the size of an apple at this speed. What is extra problematic because tracking so small objects at that speed could be mission impossible. Hundereds of years of travel and avoiding apples in complete but radioactive darkness at 3000 km/s isn't a trivial task.


3. When you take a look at wider picture things become even more radical: since it is questionable what will be of this universe once stars spend their energy. Not to mention that there are very dangerous objects out there: from black holes that can destroy star systems to neutron stars that when collide with each other and therefore they can irradiate objects very far even by the scale of the universe. Plus since universe is chemically homgenous there could be hostile civilizations out there. So the bottom line is that reality at grand scale looks more like rat maze made by evil genius than a product of a loving God.


4. Soul - So far there wasn't a single concrete observation that such a thing exist while advances in understanding the chemo-physical dynamic of the brain are advancing on a daily basis. The biggest problem with soul is where souls were before we were born, since everyone that is alive right now was technically dead 200 years ago and they did not exist. In other words there doesn't seem to be any memory of life before birth.


5. Hell and Heaven - also unproven however the biggest problem is that such concepts have a number of serious logical problems. How can you enjoy in Heaven if for some reason happens that your mother, husband or child ended up in Hell due to some bad life circumstances ? Not to mention that eternal life is perfectly pointless because it can't have a goal ... since it will never end. Also after few billion years the whole thing will probably be a existential torture regardless of where you ended. In a way Hell is perhaps even better since it at least allows you dreaming of places where grass is greener.


6. I am from the place that doesn't have nice history and when I remember all those religious people killed during the war in my childhood as well as leveled churches that somehow doesn't fit into the reality with God. The thing is that innocent got slaughter and most of their killers aren't even presecuted or they were simply released despite evidences. Not to mention all those priests that were tortured, poisoned and killed by the communist regime, plus mass rape of nuns and ordinary women. Somehow all of that doesn't fit into the God story in my opinion.


7. Free will - if one acknowledges the rule/observation of determinism free will is just an illusion since every event is defined by it's past. What makes our reality a chain reaction rather than something were real decisions are made. What means that good and evil can't exist since everything is predetermined.


8. Every day there are thousands of commerical airplane flights as well as hundereds of satellites above as and there are no signs of the great father that lives on the clouds.


9. There are trully many religions and cults: in my opinion this is a big thing since it shows how religion is chaotic in a same way as human nature. Different people believe in mutually exclusive things and all of them can't be correct at the same time. If religious story were true a man would expect that there would be one or a few large groups, however since there are no concrete evidences people wander off into all kinds of things. (and no one seems to counter the trend)


10. Once you accept that physical evidences show much more evidences of evolution than creation it becomes evident that what we are watching right now is just a snapshot. In other words evolution isn't over and for 20 000 years humans will look differently than today, even if we skip the whole thing that involves genetic modifications, robots, cyborgs etc. As a matter of fact races are the start of divergent evolution that will take various human populations in different directions on the long run (each adepting to their environment). Actually the story of Adam and Eve is quite fishy if we consider that we have all those races on the planet, plus on the very long run the changes will be so large that our far ascendants wouldn't even look like humans. Especially if they will live somewhere in space for millions of generation that are yet to come. However the odds are that far future will belong to the machines since they are by definition more adaptable to the harsh, cold and radioactive reality that is our universe, especially since they can multiply much faster than organic life.




I have no doubts that there is emotional need for God(s) but the thing is that more careful observations of the reality are in direct conflict with what religions propagate.
 

citizen cane

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If God created the universe, then what created God?
 

Coriolis

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As regards the status of the universe, why is this even an important question?
It isn't. It is important rather in regard to God himself (presuming he exists).
 

PumpkinMayCare

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I don't subscribe so much to "Does God exist?" ... such a thing is beating a dead horse. There is no solidity. There is no end. There is only subjective opinion ... Or, in some cases, subjective experience. I'm more interested in "what" God is? Not to mention, why is he called God? That is not his name. That is a title. Not to mention gender specific. "Goddess" should work just as well, for it has no gender. It is not physical ... Or is it?

That's in fact a very interesting question. Now from what I remember from reading the bible when I was younger, there's one scenario where God shows up in front of one man as a burning bush. I can't remember him ever walking on earth in a mans body. So it seems it is more a mystical ball of power, who can change into whatever shape he wants. But why is it not called they then, as in it is as much female as it is male? :shock: I guess because a man is connected in peoples minds with strength, respect and for some reason dignity. Gives him a better position to enforce his commandments. Could have mentioned in the bible why he has a male name though.:shrug:
 

Beorn

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You are in agreement with me. Religions and ideologies are double-edged swords, tools that can be used for good or evil. Even if God is real, s/he didn't create religions, we did. They are for us. God surely doesn't need them.

Ironically you're anthropomorphizing God just in a different way than most religions.
You're presuming that because God doesn't need something he doesn't desire it.
 

tinker683

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I always love the nonbelievers and their reasons why God doesn't exist.
I don't think you're being sincere when you say this :wink:

I struggle at times to believe in a god, but I do know there is some sort of higher being out there...after all, the earth and life itself came into existence from nothing.
You may want to read up on the Big Bang and Abiogenesis, intriguing stuff.

When people start blaming God for every bad thing that happens in their lives, that's where they fail to realize God gave everyone free will in how to handle their trials.
If you believe in a God that is all knowing, is all powerful, and claims to have a vested interest in the well being of every individual human being, I don't think its illogical to ask this same God why he allows so much evil shit to happen in the world.

They can either stay mad at Him for giving them such a harsh life or do something about it to get their lives to where they want to be.
Yeah, damn those people with birth defects and genetic disorders and being born with incurable diseases, they're just not putting their shoulders into it!

There's also Satan out there so if people are questioning why there are bad people who do bad things who don't care what they do...that's from Satan, not God.
Which of course poses the question of why an all powerful, all knowing deity would allow such a being like Satan to exist in the first place.

Bottom line: The existence of the universe != the existence of a deity. It's quite plausible that the 'divine', whatever he/she/it is, was created within the universe we live in now, depending on how you define it all.
 
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If matter is never truly destroyed but only altered then couldn't we assume it has always existed? The building blocks that created this current cycle have perhaps always existed. White Holes I believe are only theoretical but if they exist they could be the other end of black holes. Matter goes in and is changed but not destroyed but comes out somewhere else as something else.

Matter evolves and possibly devolves to later evolve again when conditions are favorable. It's why I believe a god/ess would develop life based on evolution. The universe is clearly not static why then would a creator make life that is unable to adapt? If that were the case, life would have died out on Earth long ago and would have met stiff resistance everywhere else in the cosmos. Yes, yes some people aren't going to be convinced there's life elsewhere in the universe until it makes a guest appearance just for them. Why so many people believe god and evolution are mutually exclusive is mind boggling.

The chicken and the egg. I'm not sure if there's a chicken but I'm pretty convinced there's an egg. Perhaps if we find the chicken he/she will also tell us he/she is also the egg.
 

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I always love the nonbelievers and their reasons why God doesn't exist. I struggle at times to believe in a god, but I do know there is some sort of higher being out there...after all, the earth and life itself came into existence from nothing. When people start blaming God for every bad thing that happens in their lives, that's where they fail to realize God gave everyone free will in how to handle their trials. They can either stay mad at Him for giving them such a harsh life or do something about it to get their lives to where they want to be. There's also Satan out there so if people are questioning why there are bad people who do bad things who don't care what they do...that's from Satan, not God. And some people allow their demons to over power themselves. If God doesn't exist then how did this very earth and everything living come into existence?
Who created God?
 

Ojian

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It isn't. It is important rather in regard to God himself (presuming he exists).

Why? If, for the sake of argument, we are presuming God exists, why is the question of "Who created God?" even asked?

I mean, that question is usually brought up in a rhetorical manner to dodge the idea that God created the universe. But I never understood why answering that question would even matter. The question implicitly is assuming God. So then if God had something that created him, so what? If God did not have something that created him, so what? Neither option would have any bearing on the (assumed) existence of God.
 

Mole

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If we look at the universe, from the accelerating expansion away from us, to four thousand million years of natural selection, it seems to have nothing to do with the Trinity, nothing to do with Allah, and nothing to do with Ganesh, the God with the head of an elephant.

It is hard to believe that one of these Gods created the universe.
 

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It is probably most reasonable to suspect that you are God.

1. Everything exists before your consciousness. This includes things that are absent or unknown; such things fully reveal themselves as absent or unknown; they are fully what they are, and they aren't clouded over in the least, or if they are, the cloudy image is still a thing grasped by your awareness. It is only that you think your knowledge is limited.

2. There are no limits placed on your will, either, except those that you freely accept. When you feel hindered, it is because you have initiated an endeavor that has obstacles built into it by its very nature. Chopping down a tree means not just felling a tree but meeting with some resistance from it. The resistance is part of what it means to chop down a tree. You chose the resistance. And even if you cut through the tree as you would cut through warm butter, you still have to exert some energy to do it. So if you're God, the answer to the old question of whether God can create a rock too heavy for himself to lift is yes.

3. There is no particular reason to suppose that you aren't omnipresent. The separation between yourself and an exterior object is akin to the separation between yourself and your body. The only difference is that an external object affects you whereas you affect your body. If you are God, it may be assumed that an object that affects you was originally affected by you; it then followed the course you set it on with the result that it came to affect you. Objects would then be a derivative of the body. It could also be imagined that the object was the prime mover. But really, the two candidates for prime mover always coexisted, one acting on the other and creating a mutual resistance. This is obvious from the fact that an object without an observer and a body without a degree of objecthood are both equally and totally incomprehensible.
 

Mole

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It is probably most reasonable to suspect that you are God.

1. Everything exists before your consciousness. This includes things that are absent or unknown; such things fully reveal themselves as absent or unknown; they are fully what they are, and they aren't clouded over in the least, or if they are, the cloudy image is still a thing grasped by your awareness. It is only that you think your knowledge is limited.

2. There are no limits placed on your will, either, except those that you freely accept. When you feel hindered, it is because you have initiated an endeavor that has obstacles built into it by its very nature. Chopping down a tree means not just felling a tree but meeting with some resistance from it. The resistance is part of what it means to chop down a tree. You chose the resistance. And even if you cut through the tree as you would cut through warm butter, you still have to exert some energy to do it. So if you're God, the answer to the old question of whether God can create a rock too heavy for himself to lift is yes.

3. There is no particular reason to suppose that you aren't omnipresent. The separation between yourself and an exterior object is akin to the separation between yourself and your body. The only difference is that an external object effects you whereas you effect your body. If you are God, it may be assumed that an object that effects you was originally effected by you; it then followed the course you set it on with the result that it came to effect you. Objects would then be a derivative of the body. It could also be imagined that the object was the prime mover. But really, the two candidates for prime mover always coexisted, one acting on the other and creating a mutual resistance. This is obvious from the fact that an object without an observer and a body without a degree of objecthood are both equally and totally incomprehensible.

This is plausible, it is persuasive, it makes itself easy to believe, and it has a long lineage, going back 3,000 years to the Sophists in Ancient Greece - everything old is new again.
 

Coriolis

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Why? If, for the sake of argument, we are presuming God exists, why is the question of "Who created God?" even asked?

I mean, that question is usually brought up in a rhetorical manner to dodge the idea that God created the universe. But I never understood why answering that question would even matter. The question implicitly is assuming God. So then if God had something that created him, so what? If God did not have something that created him, so what? Neither option would have any bearing on the (assumed) existence of God.
Perhaps the question concerns something about God other than his mere existence.

Ironically you're anthropomorphizing God just in a different way than most religions.
You're presuming that because God doesn't need something he doesn't desire it.
Considering what God might desire is just as anthropomorphizing as considering what he might need. Indeed, that is part of my notion that religions are created by people, for people. As such, it is unavoidable that we will anthropomorphize God as part of that.
 

1487610420

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I always love the nonbelievers and their reasons why God doesn't exist.

I struggle at times to believe in a god, but I do know there is some sort of higher being out there...after all, the earth and life itself came into existence from nothing.

When people start blaming God for every bad thing that happens in their lives, that's where they fail to realize God gave everyone free will in how to handle their trials.
They can either stay mad at Him for giving them such a harsh life or do something about it to get their lives to where they want to be.

There's also Satan out there so if people are questioning why there are bad people who do bad things who don't care what they do...that's from Satan, not God.

And some people allow their demons to over power themselves.

If God doesn't exist then how did this very earth and everything living come into existence?

I'm sorry.
 

Mole

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The moral problem with God is that He is all powerful, all knowing, and all good. So God is the template for dictatorship, and a template for totalitarians.

By pointing out there is no evidence that God actually exists, we undermine the validity and rational for dictatorship and totalitarians.

And the denial of God's existence causes visceral clutch in believers. And they believe we are doing it to them deliberately. And so we are bad and unGodly.
 
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