[Fi] Rant about Fi

[Coriolis]

But that is the net effect of your beliefs, that you can't see. Artificially increasing etnic and racial diversity decreases is antagonistic to the civic society basis required to actually have true individualism. Democracy needs a specific set of core principles and values, which seem to rest on the heritage of Enlightenment thought. As we have seen from the misguided neocon efforts to push democracy in the Middle East, democracy without such rapidly falls apart.

You are making this more complicated than it is, and criticising positions I do not hold. We do not need to artificially increase diversity, we simply need to stop artificially opposing it. Meaning, strive for a society in which everyone has a fair chance to make the most of their potential; stop stacking the deck against certain groups and in favor of others. People are born onto this slanted playing field, they don't encounter it for the first time when applying to college. Some colleges recognize this and reach out to disadvantaged (i.e. poor, inner-city) students of any race or ethnicity.

Actually, no. They were no that different from the average colonist. They were remarkably representative, though perhaps superior in some ways. People were generally well informed and politically active. It was the era of pamphlets and Committees of Correspondence.

There was some real differences though, as the colonists came from 4 different regions in Britain and settled in 4 different regions of the country, generally. They had different faiths. They built their homes differently The New England Puritans were very different from the Southern plantation owner. What they shared was a common intellectual background. They all were educated in republicanism and the Enlightenment.

This is not at all what I mean. Adams, Jefferson and their ilk were similar to the average colonist in superficial ways, as you mentioned before. It was their way of thinking that set them apart. Adams defended the British soldiers who committed the "Boston Massacre", which was a very unpopular thing to do. Then, when offered an appointment with the British government, he declined it, unlike the reaction of a true loyalist.

Actually, no. We have the research to prove it. History has shown over and over again that increased racial and ethnic diversity weakens a society. It isn't supposition or conjecture.

Do not mistake correlation for causality. A self-fulfilling prophecy would play out the same way.

The best way to experience such is to study and visit there. No matter how many Japanese restaurants someone goes to eat sushi, it will never be the same as visiting Japan and spending serious time there.

You are missing the point. I'm not talking about tourism, or taking on another culture wholesale. I am suggesting the importation of ideas and ways of doing things when they can improve upon or add to our own. At root, the idea that we can learn from other cultures. This is just another aspect of the global marketplace. 1000 years ago, Viking ships served this function. 500 years ago, it was the European explorers. Now anyone with an internet connection can take part, and without the cost, delay, or hardship of the earlier transactions.

The ones who immigrate legally are often the best and the brightest of Third-world countries. That talent is being siphoned off, weakening the home country. The illegals, not so much. I know two African families, recent immigrants. One was extremely well off in Zaire, sent their children to South African boarding schools. They came legally. The children were shocked how easy American high school was compared to their experience. They hurt their country by leaving. They sound like the families you know. The other family, also from Zaire, are illegal, overstaying a tourist visa. The son is in trouble nonstop and failing in school. The father is not a good person, to put it mildly.

We get a similar result in many of those who cross the Southern border. There isn't a great respect for elders or society or education.

The problem you address with widespread failures in the African-American community have many sources, including the results of decades of poor policy. It has only gotten worse with the destruction of blue collar middle class jobs. But there is also a cultural effort against education and success promoted by demogogues and the entertainment industry, trying to make them feel like incapable victims. In my sons' school, many of the African-American children oppose the concept of education in a misguided form of entitlement and rebellion. They mock academic success, pulling down the more diligent children.

You know nothing about the African families I know. The father in one family is a research chemist, but the others are from much more humble backgrounds. Most came here as refugees from the Mugabe regime in Zimbabwe, after family members were murdered and/or attempts were made on their own lives. Interestingly, one was a wealthy, upper class white girl. She was the one who always acted entitled and was completely unreliable. Then there are the Cambodians, the Vietnamese, and other Asians. Even the poor farmers among them place a premium on education for their children.

It would be nice if their influence could help to counteract the cultural effort against education you mention. I agree that its influence has been insidious and far-reaching. In fact, many immigrants are given visas and green cards to work in scientific and technical specializations that most American students can't be bothered to invest the effort into learning. If Americans valued education as the founding fathers did, this justification would not exist.

I appreciate diversity. I just know what results from certain types of diversity. And there is no national interest to bring in a single immigrant, especially uneducated ones. If you want to weaken other nations by taking their potentially most successful individuals, then you have a cruelty streak.

"Certain types of diversity"? Which types of diversity are acceptable in your estimation, and which are not?? Our national interest includes supporting individual liberty, those inalienable God-given rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Most immigrants come to our shores seeking exactly that. We have no obligation to any nation or individual to take immigrants. Blanket exclusion, however, is incompatible with our own values as a nation.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

You are making this more complicated than it is, and criticising positions I do not hold. We do not need to artificially increase diversity, we simply need to stop artificially opposing it. Meaning, strive for a society in which everyone has a fair chance to make the most of their potential; stop stacking the deck against certain groups and in favor of others. People are born onto this slanted playing field, they don't encounter it for the first time when applying to college. Some colleges recognize this and reach out to disadvantaged (i.e. poor, inner-city) students of any race or ethnicity.

The American citizens most hurt by our current immigration policies are middle class and lower class families. They are being hurt directly by the policies you support. We have 95 million adults out of the workforce. Studies have shown that almost all the job growth of the last few years has gone to immigrants, as employers reap the benefits of imported cheap labor.

This is not at all what I mean. Adams, Jefferson and their ilk were similar to the average colonist in superficial ways, as you mentioned before. It was their way of thinking that set them apart. Adams defended the British soldiers who committed the "Boston Massacre", which was a very unpopular thing to do. Then, when offered an appointment with the British government, he declined it, unlike the reaction of a true loyalist.

And Franklin's son was a major bureaucrat and remained a loyalist. Again, they were representative.

Do not mistake correlation for causality. A self-fulfilling prophecy would play out the same way.

And you reject accepted social science????? Not very Te of you......

You are missing the point. I'm not talking about tourism, or taking on another culture wholesale. I am suggesting the importation of ideas and ways of doing things when they can improve upon or add to our own. At root, the idea that we can learn from other cultures. This is just another aspect of the global marketplace. 1000 years ago, Viking ships served this function. 500 years ago, it was the European explorers. Now anyone with an internet connection can take part, and without the cost, delay, or hardship of the earlier transactions.

So we don't need to import anyone, right??? We got the internet, after all.

Then there are the Cambodians, the Vietnamese, and other Asians. Even the poor farmers among them place a premium on education for their children.

Asians have long valued education. It is a cultural thing.... But Asians are discriminated against at many universities for admissions...hmmmm

It would be nice if their influence could help to counteract the cultural effort against education you mention. I agree that its influence has been insidious and far-reaching.

It is mass immigration, combined with the exporting of blue collar middle class jobs that is largely responsible. When formerly middle-class blue collar jobs like mining and meatpacking are now minimum wage jobs full of immigrants, you see the price of immigration.

In fact, many immigrants are given visas and green cards to work in scientific and technical specializations that most American students can't be bothered to invest the effort into learning. If Americans valued education as the founding fathers did, this justification would not exist.

A complete fabrication pushed by Silicon Valley billionaires. I guess you didn't read about Disney dumping a bunch of tech workers for H-1Bs?

There is no lack of stem workers. They just got screwed. Tech job growth is gone almost entirely to immigrants.

My wife has a friend whose Filipino computer programmer husband got outsourced after 20 years, with him training two people to do his job, because neither could do it. He went into nursing......

"Certain types of diversity"? Which types of diversity are acceptable in your estimation, and which are not?? Our national interest includes supporting individual liberty, those inalienable God-given rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Most immigrants come to our shores seeking exactly that. We have no obligation to any nation or individual to take immigrants. Blanket exclusion, however, is incompatible with our own values as a nation.

Why not? Why not them all? We don't have a legal, moral, or ethical obligation to allow anyone, no matter what their goals. Our country is sick. We have 95 million out of the workforce. This is having a huge impact on the American dream. New college grads have few job prospects and huge debt. The median wage has declined adjusted for inflation.

Until we can fix this and assimilate the results of mass immigration, we are screwed. This country will collapse. They can only play smoke and mirrors with the system so long.

And a dictatorship is the likely result, if not complete division and conflict and chaos. The patterns are clear. We need to get our house in order before it is too late. It might already be.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I think one benefit of diversity is that it ideally stops people from assuming that the other person is just like them. Rather than assuming what they think and like, and how they are going to react, we have to ask and listen and observe, and give them space to be who they really are. I find this a much more respectful attitude to have toward others.

I agree completely. This is how I understand it as well.

I'm jumping into the conversation, and so may be wayyyyy off base, but homogeneity tends to work really well in Japanese culture provided you aren't the black sheep. It has its problems, for sure, but it leads to positive outcomes as well. People are often on the same track a lot faster due to similarity of culture; there's less time spent trying to navigate differences and more time spent on being together.

It's a bit like playing a sport where everyone already knows all the rules of the game and acts accordingly. In other words, you get to the game a LOT faster.

Some people prefer this dynamic. It is interesting you use the sports analogy because I personally can't function in those dynamics. I was required to participate in the organized fights over balls as a child, but was never particularly motivated. The agreed upon assumptions and values are necessary, but they appear arbitrary to me. I never cared enough about the ball to care to win, but the metaphor does apply to much of humanity who find it easy to be deeply invested in a ball. (Edit: I know the ball is a metaphor for the individual ego, but if your ego is not defined outwardly by its place amongst others, then there is really no point in competing over it to prove superiority socially.)

 

[Poki]

I think Fi is about search for truths just the same as Ti. Just the Fi realm instead of Ti realm. I never liked Fi as value as its to much related to everyone. Fe and Te are more searching for control. Both can be both positive and negative. Good control vs negative control. And good truths vs negative truths.

 

[Gawain]

Hey! You can show him a lesson without critisizing Ne as a main function. Im Ne-Fi and have nothing to do with OP.

I had exactly one reason for including Ne in that, and it was because it's his dominant function. Since what he is attacking isn't just Fi, but Fi as a dominant function. I have zero problems with Ne. In fact, it is sometimes difficult to tell whether my Ne or Fi is more pronounced. All of this confusion can be avoided with a closer reading of that second paragraph with the bold. From my experience the only way to get through to his type is this sort of thing, which is obviously hurtful to other types. Rest assured, it was purely for shock-value, which while it doesn't work well on our types does seem to work occasionally with his.

 

[Bush]

Hey! You can show him a lesson without critisizing Ne as a main function. Im Ne-Fi and have nothing to do with OP.

Also, all....every single ENTP I have ever met, has a problem with Fi. There's nothing to do about this and they need to grow up and be less obtuse/offensive/arrogant.

Hey! You can illustrate a point without critisizing etc

 

[prplchknz]

I get along with most entps and they get along with me, but i guess the ones i don't is the immature ones.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

Hey! You can illustrate a point without critisizing etc

Well, since OP was offensive I feel totally free to express what i really think without having to use social camouflage.

 

[Rune]

What is unhealthy Fi exactly?

 

[Coriolis]

And Franklin's son was a major bureaucrat and remained a loyalist. Again, they were representative.

And you reject accepted social science????? Not very Te of you......

So we don't need to import anyone, right??? We got the internet, after all.

Asians have long valued education. It is a cultural thing.... But Asians are discriminated against at many universities for admissions...hmmmm

Well, for this handful of assertions:

Many of the "founding fathers" may have been demographically representative, but were exceptional in their thinking and approach to the problems of their day. For one, they acted boldly to shape the future, rather than clinging out of fear to the status quo.

I do reject some of social science as self-fulfilling prophecy, and sometimes professional circle jerk. Not sure which particular finding of social science you refer to here.

The internet is great for surveys, overviews, getting an introduction to something. True understanding on a human level, though is best (not exclusively but best) done face to face. If anything, the internet should be able to help us overcome our fears of things and people outside our experience, so when we encounter the same, we do so from a position of understanding rather than ignorance.

I have heard of Asians being on the positive end of discrimination in education, if there is such a thing. In any case, they are usually overrepresented, especially in technical and medical fields.

Now on to the main point:

It is mass immigration, combined with the exporting of blue collar middle class jobs that is largely responsible. When formerly middle-class blue collar jobs like mining and meatpacking are now minimum wage jobs full of immigrants, you see the price of immigration.

A complete fabrication pushed by Silicon Valley billionaires. I guess you didn't read about Disney dumping a bunch of tech workers for H-1Bs?

There is no lack of stem workers. They just got screwed. Tech job growth is gone almost entirely to immigrants.

Why not? Why not them all? We don't have a legal, moral, or ethical obligation to allow anyone, no matter what their goals. Our country is sick. We have 95 million out of the workforce. This is having a huge impact on the American dream. New college grads have few job prospects and huge debt. The median wage has declined adjusted for inflation.

Until we can fix this and assimilate the results of mass immigration, we are screwed. This country will collapse. They can only play smoke and mirrors with the system so long.

And a dictatorship is the likely result, if not complete division and conflict and chaos. The patterns are clear. We need to get our house in order before it is too late. It might already be.

We don't get anything in order by knee-jerk reactions rooted in fear. The issue of jobs and immigration is tied up with other issues, especially the sorry state of American education. I am not familiar with the Disney situation, but do know that in most parts of the country there is a shortage of STEM workers. Just type "job applicants lack basic skills" into a search engine to see page after page of accounts. In my area alone, there are tens of thousands of people unemployed, and about as many STEM jobs going unfilled. Why? It is because those without jobs lack not only the technical skills, but also basic literacy and other skills like simply showing up on time, and doing one's assigned work. (Yes - home-grown US job seekers too often can't read and write their mother tongue enough for available jobs, much less calculate their way out of a paper bag.)

As a scientist and a longtime STEM education volunteer, I think it's a crying shame that we cannot fill these jobs with domestic applicants. This problem won't be solved, however, by prohibiting immigration. We need a serious overhaul of education in the US, and don't have a hope of "getting our house in order" until we do. Meanwhile, jobs go unfilled, work goes undone, and businesses should be free to find the labor they need where they can get it. I wouldn't be opposed to an extra tax or fee on business for each employee they import for this purpose. That might provide some encouragement to prefer domestic workers while still allowing them to meet critical needs.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Well, for this handful of assertions:

Many of the "founding fathers" may have been demographically representative, but were exceptional in their thinking and approach to the problems of their day. For one, they acted boldly to shape the future, rather than clinging out of fear to the status quo.

I believe many were "Great Men", but there were many "Great Men" who were not there, as well. It was a great era for illumination and thinking. And it only happened in America. There was a distinct combination of factors necessary here and the cultural heritage was key.

Again, I recommend Samuel Huntington's book, "who are we?"

I do reject some of social science as self-fulfilling prophecy, and sometimes professional circle jerk. Not sure which particular finding of social science you refer to here.

Studies have shown that increased diversity leads to decreased civic engagement. It fragments rather than unites. It divides rather builds up.

The internet is great for surveys, overviews, getting an introduction to something. True understanding on a human level, though is best (not exclusively but best) done face to face. If anything, the internet should be able to help us overcome our fears of things and people outside our experience, so when we encounter the same, we do so from a position of understanding rather than ignorance.

Again, so what? If anyone wants to learn about Russia, go live there for a bit.

Multiculturalism is rooted in an anti-Western ideology, yet somehow it is Western culture that is largely responsible for all the advances in modern world. It is Western culture that draws people here.

Why do we need to bring in other people who have a different culture, in many cases a barbaric culture as shown in Cologne? If people want to come in, they need to assimilate.

But again, we don't need them. At all. Zero need to bring in a single person from anywhere else.

Besides, we are draining off the most capable people. We are hurting their countries.

I have heard of Asians being on the positive end of discrimination in education, if there is such a thing. In any case, they are usually overrepresented, especially in technical and medical fields.

Asians are openly discriminated against at Ivy League schools and the University of California system among others. They need better grades and scores than whites, while blacks and Hispanics need lower grades and scores to be admitted.

There is a lot of discrimination against Asians in many fields and businesses. There have been many articles on these issues.

Now on to the main point:

We don't get anything in order by knee-jerk reactions rooted in fear.

Knee jerk? Interesting. Prudence means we study the issue, make judgments on it, and move on. We don't need immigrants. There is zero interest to bringing in one more.

The issue of jobs and immigration is tied up with other issues, especially the sorry state of American education.

Nope. It is exploitation by corporations. They don't want to pay. They want to outsource and use cheap labor.

My brother told me yesterday that he might go work at Paramount Pictures in their computer related marketing department. His friend is there and has to leave. They only have temp workers, 18 months tops.

There have been many articles about tech jobs that require 10 years experience in a language that is less than 5 years old. They use intentional job description excluders so they can justify guest workers.

I have read of architects being replaced by guest workers at half the rate.

Again, studies show that we don't have a lack of qualified people. We have companies that are exploiting.

I am not familiar with the Disney situation, but do know that in most parts of the country there is a shortage of STEM workers. Just type "job applicants lack basic skills" into a search engine to see page after page of accounts. In my area alone, there are tens of thousands of people unemployed, and about as many STEM jobs going unfilled. Why? It is because those without jobs lack not only the technical skills, but also basic literacy and other skills like simply showing up on time, and doing one's assigned work. (Yes - home-grown US job seekers too often can't read and write their mother tongue enough for available jobs, much less calculate their way out of a paper bag.)

As a scientist and a longtime STEM education volunteer, I think it's a crying shame that we cannot fill these jobs with domestic applicants. This problem won't be solved, however, by prohibiting immigration. We need a serious overhaul of education in the US, and don't have a hope of "getting our house in order" until we do. Meanwhile, jobs go unfilled, work goes undone, and businesses should be free to find the labor they need where they can get it. I wouldn't be opposed to an extra tax or fee on business for each employee they import for this purpose. That might provide some encouragement to prefer domestic workers while still allowing them to meet critical needs.

I don't know your specific field. I do know what I have read over and over again. I do know what people have told me.

It is a wage issue, which is why tech companies conspired to keep wages down in Silicon Valley. Most H1-Bs are computer jobs and we have more than enough qualified people.....

The logic and reasoning is clear. Until we can employ most of the 95 million, many of which are young college grads, why bring in one person?

 

[Jaguar]

How is a personal value system a "they"?

 

[Virtual ghost]

What is unhealthy Fi exactly?

 

[Rune]

Hmm.. o_o

I don't understand why people roll their hair and then think they can tell people with natural curly hair how to take care of their hair... natural curly hair is a pain in the butt..

As for the cigarettes, crying, and wine, those are just coping mechanisms..
Dunno why she'd take a picture when her hair is still not finished, though..

 

[Masokissed]

ME.

 

[sculpting]

I don't know your specific field. I do know what I have read over and over again. I do know what people have told me.

It is a wage issue, which is why tech companies conspired to keep wages down in Silicon Valley. Most H1-Bs are computer jobs and we have more than enough qualified people.....

The logic and reasoning is clear. Until we can employ most of the 95 million, many of which are young college grads, why bring in one person?

I have no idea what this has to do with Fi, hahaha.

I have to second @Corialias in her argument that we cant find americans to fill STEM jobs.

My little boy goes to school in an area most would consider a bad part of town. I drive 1.5 hours everyday so he can get to school. His school is 80% hispanic, most first generation mexican americans, 10% african americans and the rest is a mix of asian, middle eastern and a few random Caucasian kids. His teachers are a mix of american and turks, with a number being Muslim, so all said and done, he gets to live diversity everyday. Its odd...Its not "american" or "turkish" but instead its a micro-culture that has evolved.

Maybe the nice part of being in a diverse nation is that we have the freedom to find the micro-cultures that are the best match to what we value or think?

OP, I think you are just starting to evolve your own extroverted feeling and its somewhat rudimentary judgments are harsh upon you and others around you. As Jung noted, you are projecting that Fe onto the Fi users and making a ton of incorrect assumptions about their underlying motivations and values, based upon your own principles and values.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I have no idea what this has to do with Fi, hahaha.

I have to second @Corialias in her argument that we cant find americans to fill STEM jobs.

My little boy goes to school in an area most would consider a bad part of town. I drive 1.5 hours everyday so he can get to school. His school is 80% hispanic, most first generation mexican americans, 10% african americans and the rest is a mix of asian, middle eastern and a few random Caucasian kids. His teachers are a mix of american and turks, with a number being Muslim, so all said and done, he gets to live diversity everyday. Its odd...Its not "american" or "turkish" but instead its a micro-culture that has evolved.

Maybe the nice part of being in a diverse nation is that we have the freedom to find the micro-cultures that are the best match to what we value or think?

OP, I think you are just starting to evolve your own extroverted feeling and its somewhat rudimentary judgments are harsh upon you and others around you. As Jung noted, you are projecting that Fe onto the Fi users and making a ton of incorrect assumptions about their underlying motivations and values, based upon your own principles and values.

This post, as you are obviously aware since I never once used Fi or Fe, is not directed at either, so your entire post seems filtered though some dynamic that you want to project on me. Or were you not really responding to me and just wanted to post something? I don't know if you expected a response from me...

You don't know me. You have zero idea as to my life experience, background, profession, values, or anything else about me, just this lens of Fe.....

So, I will not presume as your own background. I do know the data is clear about hiring practices, visa abuses, conspiracies among tech companies to keep wages down, etc.

I don't presume to know what data you based your assertion that we can't find STEM employees domestically. I know that the claim is false.

It sounds like your son goes to a charter school run by a Turkish cult whose leader has been accused of plotting to overthrow the Turkish government and whose followers have used the charter school program to access government money and bring in Turkish followers. We have a few of their schools nearby. They do good work, for sure, but not due to a lack of US STEM teachers.

Diversity is a nice thing, but it isn't a great value for a successful country historically. Mass immigration was planned to change the country for political power. And give cheap labor. The purpose of a country is to serve its citizens, so both these goals hurt the citizens already here, increasing inequality and straining resources. Diversity leads to host of problems I could detail but I don't know if you would care to entertain or consider.

Balkanization is very bad (look at the Balkans if you doubt me, lol). Again, there is a lot of research into this and I don't want to presume if you have read it or not.

I could detail a lot of horrible things that have happened as a result of the radically increased diversity, but I am in no mood to presume anything

The only thing I get from your desire to respond to a month old post is to stir up some Fe/Fi fight. Or a political pissing contest. If really want to explore my decades of study of the topic, I would be more than willing to do so, but not just to argue. And this isn't the place to discuss immigration.... I have numerous posts in the politics section on the subject, including employer abuses....

 

[sculpting]

This post, as you are obviously aware since I never once used Fi or Fe, is not directed at either, so your entire post seems filtered though some dynamic that you want to project on me. Or were you not really responding to me and just wanted to post something? I don't know if you expected a response from me...

You don't know me. You have zero idea as to my life experience, background, profession, values, or anything else about me, just this lens of Fe.....

So, I will not presume as your own background. I do know the data is clear about hiring practices, visa abuses, conspiracies among tech companies to keep wages down, etc.

I don't presume to know what data you based your assertion that we can't find STEM employees domestically. I know that the claim is false.

It sounds like your son goes to a charter school run by a Turkish cult whose leader has been accused of plotting to overthrow the Turkish government and whose followers have used the charter school program to access government money and bring in Turkish followers. We have a few of their schools nearby. They do good work, for sure, but not due to a lack of US STEM teachers.

Diversity is a nice thing, but it isn't a great value for a successful country historically. Mass immigration was planned to change the country for political power. And give cheap labor. The purpose of a country is to serve its citizens, so both these goals hurt the citizens already here, increasing inequality and straining resources. Diversity leads to host of problems I could detail but I don't know if you would care to entertain or consider.

Balkanization is very bad (look at the Balkans if you doubt me, lol). Again, there is a lot of research into this and I don't want to presume if you have read it or not.

I could detail a lot of horrible things that have happened as a result of the radically increased diversity, but I am in no mood to presume anything

The only thing I get from your desire to respond to a month old post is to stir up some Fe/Fi fight. Or a political pissing contest. If really want to explore my decades of study of the topic, I would be more than willing to do so, but not just to argue. And this isn't the place to discuss immigration.... I have numerous posts in the politics section on the subject, including employer abuses....

ummm....uhhhhh.... lol at the evil turks? Uh, Fe...uh I didnt mention anything about you? I am so confused.... I like Cor, she is brilliant, like this wonderful mind that makes me happy to watch think. I enjoy reading her posts mostly, hahahaha. lol, I did ten years in biochem/biophyics grad followed by 8 in biotech bench and business, so I speak to what I see, and to what positions I couldnt get hired.

Yay, my child will be EVIL!!

 

[SearchingforPeace]

ummm....uhhhhh.... lol at the evil turks? Uh, Fe...uh I didnt mention anything about you? I am so confused.... I like Cor, she is brilliant, like this wonderful mind that makes me happy to watch think. I enjoy reading her posts mostly, hahahaha. lol, I did ten years in biochem/biophyics grad followed by 8 in biotech bench and business, so I speak to what I see, and to what positions I couldnt get hired.

Yay, my child will be EVIL!!

Wtf, you quoted me.....

And I never called your son evil or the Turks evil, lol

 

[Coriolis]

Wtf, you quoted me.....

And I never called your son evil or the Turks evil, lol

There is no need to make the discussion personal. [MENTION=6166]sculpting[/MENTION] took issue with your comment on STEM employment, which she quoted. This makes no assumptions about you or your life experiences, but is a simple reading of your posted text. She then shared her experiences with her son's school - again, nothing to do with you.

As for your STEM jobs argument, I'm not sure where you are getting your statistics. You can start by checking these publications:

Short on STEM talent

Brains not brawn

America desperately needs more STEM students

And finally this one, which starts to explain the conflicting views on this topic.
Debating the STEM crisis

The two main reasons for disagreement as to whether STEM graduates are in short supply is (1) whether to count health professions (if counted, this vastly inflates the number of available grads); and (2) failing to account for the not insignificant number of students who start off in a STEM major, but switch to something else before graduating.

All the statistics I hear from the professional societies to which I belong, at scientific conferences I attend, and even in my own workplace agree that there is a shortage of US citizens qualified to take many of the STEM jobs that are out there. In many industries, e.g. those that are defense-related, taking foreign applicants is simply not an option.