F7 vs T5
I think it's interesting that as for as the neocortex goes, there are two "mirror neuron" regions (using Nardi's terms):
F7 - "Imaginative Mimic" - Mirroring other's behavior, imaginatively entering into other situations and "what if" scenarios
T5 - "Sensitive Mediator" - Noticing and responding to social cues, wondering how others evaluate you, being embarrassed
I think F7 sounds kind of Ne (with a little F/Fi flavor, as far as mirroring), and T5 sounds somewhat Fe. Nardi did find that FJ was associated with T5, and Ne with F7. But the T5 association was a little more complex (see below).
Regardless, I do think it's interesting that mirror neurons are divided into who separate regions, both of which might relate to empathy in different ways.
Nardi and T5 (an aside)
T5, the region of the neocortex related to attending to social feedback and feeling ashamed/embarrassed, is used heavily by Fe types (and seems to be an obvious fit for at least some qualities we associate with Fe).
Conversely, ISTPs tended to show the least activity in T5, with some ISTPs never showing any activity in the region no matter how embarrassing the situation in the lab. INTPs generally showed low activity in T5 as well. However, when that region finally activated for INTPs in the lab, it tended to spill over into neighboring speech and movement centers (which may be one reason why most of us, regardless of type, get clumsy and tongue-tied when embarrassed).
T5 is also used by heavily by male FPs, but far less so by female FPs... but what does that mean (Nardi didn't speculate on that, that I recall)? Could it mean that male FPs tend to feel more socially constrained than female FPs (and so perhaps are less likely to be visibly quirky)? Do male FPs learn to blend socially for some reason (social pressure)?
Of course, some studies have also shown that men tend to use T5 for facial recognition, which might explain a greater use of T5 in male FPs.
What I mean is, can someone who is not naturally empathetic learn how to become empathetic?
I kind of think they can learn but only if they see their own deficit and want to learn without seeking any other gains.
What do you think?
Absolutely it can be learned.
The only question is if it is learned consciously or subconsciously - much of it is learned by anyone, but for some it isn't an intentional learning process, but just how their family operated or something.
I think there are also some instinctual aspects to it like a strong mothering/nurturing instinct makes someone more naturally aware.
I am required to have empathy for some of my jobs, and so I work at it very intentionally and with significant effort. I think this has helped me progress with it.
First of all we should define empathy.
If you mean cognitive empathy, i.e. knowing/understanding what the other person is experiencing: yes
This can definitely be learned by careful observation. Psychopaths train themselves to read others. People with Asperbergs can learn it, as far as I know.
If you mean affective empathy, i.e. having a (socially) appropriate emotional reaction to another person's emotions, sharing their emotions: probably not
I think the latter has a lot to do with mirror neurons. Not sure how much of a fixture their strength is, i.e. if you are born with very active mirror centers or if they develope as they are trained.
My hunch is that a good part of it is either hardwired or set at an early age.
It's funny you should mention this as I have long been wondering about the relationship not only between affective empathy and mirror neurons but also between those two and Fe/Fi
Some people do teach themselves to read and write. There are children to figure out how who read by the age of three or five even with minimal or no help. I've seen people self-teach almost any skill and knowledge. In general the self-teaching process may not be as efficient as having a trained guide and teacher, but for certain minds and personalities it can even be more efficient than with the wrong mentor. You see this process more with people at either end of the norm. The gifted/genius child self teaches the majority of concepts and teachers just guide in places. I even have developmentally delayed autistic students who have taught themselves how to transpose chord progressions to any key.
I don't empathize with people who don't want to learn how to empathize...LMAO
It can be learned.
But some of us did exactly that, at least with the piano. I won't make any claims about empathy. And some of us learned to read long before we set foot in a school.Learning to empathise is like learning to play the piano - at first there are mechanical exercises, until they become second nature, then we can start to play the piano and use empathy without thinking about the mechanics.
However it is quite vain to think we can play the piano or learn to empathise without first practising the mechanical exercises.
What I mean is, can someone who is not naturally empathetic learn how to become empathetic?
I kind of think they can learn but only if they see their own deficit and want to learn without seeking any other gains.
What do you think?
Moral of the story, be who you are and the people who love you for that will stick around. The people who don't, don't deserve your time.
If you want my empathy, you play by my rules when you enter my life.
This is the classic authoritarian position.
And it is a military position where we first learn to take orders before we can give orders.
However I for one have not the slightest intention of putting myself under the orders of an authoritarian.
If you want my empathy, you play by my rules when you enter my life. Once you manage to put your ego beneath mine, I suddenly become the most humble and caring person you'll ever meet
This is pretty much the text book definition of NPD. Not ESTP.
Sure, its one of the symptoms, doesn't mean its NPD though. Its a test to see if your ego is going to interfere with the relationship. People who submit are usually mature enough to do what it takes to make the relationship work, and I'm the only person I know who appologizes and admits when he's wrong. I need to make sure the other person is the same before I get emotionally invested. Being assertive of my own rights as a human is not the same as narcissism.
You know how people feel when they don't want to learn, but you don't feel it yourself - this is called empathy.
Learning to empathise is like learning to play the piano - at first there are mechanical exercises, until they become second nature, then we can start to play the piano and use empathy without thinking about the mechanics.
However it is quite vain to think we can play the piano or learn to empathise without first practising the mechanical exercises.
But the fact is that almost no one learns to empathise unless they are compelled to learn for their job.
Just as almost no one learns to read and write unless they are compelled by Law to go to school.
This is because reading and writing and empathising are counter-intuitive and unnatural.
People who submit are usually mature enough to do what it takes to make the relationship work, and I'm the only person I know who appologizes and admits when he's wrong. I need to make sure the other person is the same before I get emotionally invested
I think almost everyone can develop empathy. Mirror neurons seems to be distributed in at least 4 regions of the brain, making it likely that they have been conserved because they provide an evolutionary advantage. And, given their ubiquity in the brain, it seems unlikey that a lack of empathy is created by their absence. Anti-social tendencies, sociopathy, etc, seem therefore to be a product of environmental factors and not exclusively genetic.
It's sad