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  1. #11
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Some info about her:

    - She's INFJ. Very, VERY INFJ. She's told me that she agrees with literally every sentence of every INFJ description she's read. But if she were another type, it would be ISFJ - she sometimes takes things too literally, she's an upstanding citizen, and she HATES philosophical discussion, because she doesn't think it "has a point".
    - Based on what she's told me about what she was like as a kid, she definitely sounded like a 4 (lots of emo-ish, lonely artist, "No one understands", marching to a different drummer type stuff), but she doesn't strike me as that now.
    - She's incredibly type-A, and can sometimes be pretty bossy (but only towards friends and family); she often doesn't trust anyone except herself to do things, but then she'll make resentful comments at family members, like "Apparently no one cares about getting this done except for me". She puts so much pressure on herself, with stuff like that, that it's as if she intentionally puts the whole world on her shoulders because she doesn't trust Atlas to do as good a job holding it up.- She worries a lot, and she's a big-time perfectionist (I think she scored 100% J).
    - You would never guess that she's an introvert, until she tells you that crowds make her anxious. She's very, very loud when you get to know her. I'd say that she talks more than I do when we're chatting.
    - Often, when I get really upset about something and vent to her, she'll feel so much empathy or get such strong bad vibes or something that she'll actually get upset with me and tell me to calm down, instead of being reassuring. She doesn't do this with anyone else that I know of (so maybe it isn't relevant - I dunno).
    - She's a lot more Fe with acquaintances than with close friends.
    - I'd describe some of the INFJs I know as sweet and gentle, but I would not describe my mom that way. If I were to describe her in three words/phrases/etc, they'd be "opinionated", "clever", and "type-A".
    - She's a history buff, and a music theory/history/etc professor. LOVES lecturing and telling stories. I asked her how lecturing in front of a class is different from chatting with a crowd, and she said that it's different because in a classroom, she's the boss.
    - Sometimes I don't think she's capable of thinking objectively...

    The reason why I haven't been able to figure out her Enneagram type is that she hardly ever gives away her motivations about anything. So, feel free to ask any questions you think are necessary...
    1

    1! 1! 1! 1! 1! 1!

    1.



    She's a lot more Fe with acquaintances than with close friends.
    A social 1?
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  2. #12
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloé View Post
    does she likes having attention from you in family and being pitied? my mom does this, after every fight.. if that no there's NO way she's 4 so she must be 1.
    She's not like that. Here's her (presumed) thought process after a fight: "That was horrible. And there are still bad vibes. Must... get... rid of them! GAH! Okay, what do I do? I guess I have to pacify everyone. That's the only way things'll be calm again. Regardless of whether it's actually my fault... I've got to apologize." And I don't think she's resentful about that process - she just accepts it as necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    1

    1! 1! 1! 1! 1! 1!

    1.

    Wow, what do you REALLY think?

    But seriously - what about my concerns with the idea of her being a 1? What are your thoughts on those?

    And how is that fifth bullet point (about her telling me to calm down) 1-related? When anyone else in the entire friggin' world freaks out around her, she's fine with it, and she's nice and reassuring, regardless of whether she wants to be. (Because, based on my experience, that's just how INFJs are.) Only with ME does she get uncomfortable. That's why I figured it was a bad-vibe thing - getting upset that her daughter is upset.
    A social 1?
    Not at all! She has a very select group of friends, and an absolutely HUGE range of friendly acquaintances that she doesn't see at all outside of her work. For example: Students. Hundreds and hundreds of students and ex-students who love her and who she often sees. But I still wouldn't call her "social".
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  3. #13
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Default Long post to posit type 2! ;)

    Time to buck the trend with an alternative suggestion! I'd conditionally type her as a Two from what I've read about her so far. I think it's far more likely than One for a number of important reasons which I'll highlight in a sec. I'm not wholly supportive of the concept of the wings, but 2w1 as a type for her actually fits qite well; it helps to explain her perfectionistic tendencies while agknowledging that her personality seems at hear to be more driven by the need to put herself into a helper role and all that is consequent on that, which fits much better with type 2 from what I'm reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Based on what she's told me about what she was like as a kid, she definitely sounded like a 4 (lots of emo-ish, lonely artist, "No one understands", marching to a different drummer type stuff), but she doesn't strike me as that now.
    4 is meant to be the security point of type 2. This would make sense if she generally felt quite fulfilled and appreciated, perhaps free to plough her own path, as a child, and slipped back more into her natural 2 type behaviour in response to the increased demands and responsibilities of adulthood. Perhaps she felt guilty about the 4-ish behaviour as it seemed too self-indulgent? And yet agknowledging the true needs of the self is what type 2's usually need to learn above all before they can find much fulfillment in life...

    - She's incredibly type-A, and can sometimes be pretty bossy (but only towards friends and family)
    It's also typical of 2's to have the most extreme and fraught, therefore stress-prone, relationships with those they're closest to due to their pattern of doing things for others in the expectation that they will reciprocate by caring for them. 2 is supposed to move towards 8 as the natural stress point, so domineering behaviour with family and those close is highly characteristic of (particularly frustrated) type 2s.

    she often doesn't trust anyone except herself to do things but then she'll make resentful comments at family members, like "Apparently no one cares about getting this done except for me". She puts so much pressure on herself, with stuff like that, that it's as if she intentionally puts the whole world on her shoulders because she doesn't trust Atlas to do as good a job holding it up.
    This is a really classic pattern of Type 2 behaviour, especially the passive-agressively expressed resentment. I suspect with type ones (and you're in a good position to judge that yourself) that it's far more likely that the responsibility will be accepted willingly

    - Often, when I get really upset about something and vent to her, she'll feel so much empathy or get such strong bad vibes or something that she'll actually get upset with me and tell me to calm down, instead of being reassuring. She doesn't do this with anyone else that I know of (so maybe it isn't relevant - I dunno).
    For an Fe type 2, this could represent her being overwhelmed by another's negative emotion (they tend to try to avoid their own, obviously that of those closest to them will have the strongest effect) and being driven into 8-ish controlling behaviour in response to the stress this causes. But this is just my hypothesis.

    - She's a lot more Fe with acquaintances than with close friends.
    Again, very typical of type 2. That need to be constantly in a helper role, always meeting the needs of others at the expense of your own, typically breaks down somewhat when the expectations of getting something in return are higher. 2s feel a sense of enhanced entitlement in this situation.

    - I'd describe some of the INFJs I know as sweet and gentle, but I would not describe my mom that way. If I were to describe her in three words/phrases/etc, they'd be "opinionated", "clever", and "type-A".
    2s are motivated, more than anything, by pride. Possibly no other type has a more strongly developed sense of their own personal and moral worth; they feel they earn the right to count for something through their continuous attempts at self-sacrifice, and are not usually hesitant about making judgements on the basis of the status they feel that gives them.

    - She's a history buff, and a music theory/history/etc professor. LOVES lecturing and telling stories. I asked her how lecturing in front of a class is different from chatting with a crowd, and she said that it's different because in a classroom, she's the boss.
    2's like to be in control in some respect, I think this is far more natural than with type ones because they are fulfilling their own needs more directly by doing so.

    - Sometimes I don't think she's capable of thinking objectively...
    And yet objectivity is supposed to be a characteristic attribute of type Ones! Most seem to pride themselves on their objectivity and put a great deal of effort into developing it - and this tendency seems to be typical irrespective of MBti type.

    The reason why I haven't been able to figure out her Enneagram type is that she hardly ever gives away her motivations about anything. So, feel free to ask any questions you think are necessary...
    2's tend to be highly self-avoidant, because all their conscious attention is typically focused on meeting the needs of others. Their own needs are buried deep in their unconcsious. If she's indeed a 2, it may be that she has trouble knowing what they are herself, and if she does, she's not likely to want to put herself in what she would see as a vulnerable position by revealing them.

    I'm not sure about 1w2, because I'm 1w2 and we're so different. But we're such opposite MBTI types - maybe it's possible?
    I can only say that I'm a type one who is a similar MBti type to her, possibly the same type, and I don't relate at all to her on most of the issues you've outlined here, where you differ to her. I do, however, relate quite a lot to your own perspective (and have in similar respects elsewhere).

    I dunno. I'm inclined to say that she's more judgmental about other people. But she doesn't exactly tell all of her personal insecurities to the world.
    This can cut both ways, but I do think that type ones are more typically reserved about expressing their judgements about others, and acutely aware of their own failings. This is not to say that they won't express very firm judgements on other's behaviour, but are frequently equally harsh on themselves, if not even more so. The tendency to explain themselves at great length if they have got something wrong (which yourself are very aware of, I know) seems quite characteristic of type ones. You might not get a sense of what the insecurities are unless your perceptions in that area are particularly acute, but it is nonetheless possible to infer them from other information, such as what she chooses to excuse herself over. If excusing herself is not a strong characteristic of hers, this militates against her being a type one, because it suggests that a sense of personal responsibility and associated guilt are not such high priorities as they would normally be.

    No. She doesn't go around correcting people all the time. Not entirely sure, but my first inclination is to say that she's better at telling people what to do than telling people what to NOT do. She's a really good proofreader, and she gets really frustrated with people's spelling and grammar errors when it's too late to change them, but she doesn't go that step further like I do (and I'm a 1w2, I think), by telling whoever's responsible that there's a spelling error there and they should fix it.
    Interesting that she gets irritated and yet doesn't seem to want to assertively and directly do anything to tackle it (thus it appears that she doesn't seem to be that motivated to take action, which she could easily take, to remove the source of her frustation). This is at any rate not terribly type one-ish. I think most ones would be more comfortable with tackling the source of their frustrations and trying to bring about change at this stage rather than complaining about it, fruitlessly, to others instead of actually doing anything about it. Though the mode of expression may vary widely, they are known as the reformers for a reason. Why does she not want to reform something that she could very easily deal with? If it's mainly about conflict avoidance, this one almost answers itself, in line with the general theme...

    She spends a lot of time making sure that what she says is tactful (not quite as much with close family).
    As mentioned earlier, it's typical for Twos to develop a sense of entitlement with those closest to them. It's as though they owe them something in return for all the effort that they feel they put in (though it's often extremely difficult to get them to understand this and admit to it directly).

    In fact, sometimes when she's talking about a touchy subject, she'll talk v-e-r-y slowly, as if she's talking to a little, confused child. (So I guess she's thinking a lot as she speaks?) She's definitely got a lot of that INFJ fear of conflict going on, but I don't know what that fear is based on. (Being criticized (1)? Being unloved (2)? etc.)
    It seems rather common for type 2s to take criticism and being unloved/unappreciated as the same thing, hence their strong tendency to accept or deflect criticism at a superficial level to try to resolve the situation in a conflict-free way, and react with strong negative emotions to conflict or being pushed to change in any way.

    I could see her being a 1, except that there are things that I experience as a 1 that I don't see in her at all - namely, the need to always be right. She takes criticism very well. She doesn't relate - and has never related - to my difficulty with criticism. She sees it as an issue that I need to take care of, as opposed to an inherent part of me.
    Typical type 2 reasoning = I know what's best for others, because I care about them and I have good intentions. If it makes you feel bad, it must be wrong for you. I don't think a type one would make such a basic error of understanding, as they're likely to have similar issues themselves.

    Also, I don't think she's resentful about the things that I'm resentful about - and she isn't resentful that much (I don't think). Most of her resentment is about things like what I mentioned earlier, i.e. feeling like everything is on her shoulders, not asking anyone for help, but still (irrationally) expecting people to help her. I never think like that. My resentment is usually related to anger that I want to let out at people - say, wanting to pick a verbal fight at someone, or yell at them for being stupid - when my mom would never want to do something like that. Just the thought of verbal conflict makes her want to run for the door.
    Again, the pattern of doing things for others and expecting something, unagknowledged, in return (rather than directly agknowledging your own needs and asking for them to be met) is very classically type 2.

    She'll snap at people sometimes, on rare occasions, but it has always seemed to me that she doesn't hold her anger in because it's "bad" to let it out - she holds it in because she wants to avoid conflict at all costs. Also, I suppose I would have thought that Ones would rather fix something by starting a conflict, than not fix something and maintain harmony. Maybe it's just because I'm an ESTJ that I have those priorities, though - like you said.
    I don't think it's really MBti-related actually. I certainly would rather fix what was broken and would be quite willing to enter into a conflict if that seemed necessary to do so, despite my innate dislike of conflict itself - and I'm not even close to being an ESTJ!

    She's not like that. Here's her (presumed) thought process after a fight: "That was horrible. And there are still bad vibes. Must... get... rid of them! GAH! Okay, what do I do? I guess I have to pacify everyone. That's the only way things'll be calm again. Regardless of whether it's actually my fault... I've got to apologize." And I don't think she's resentful about that process - she just accepts it as necessary.
    Wow! That is EXTREMELY type 2, again. All the focus is on meeting the needs of others, she ignores her own in order to focus on them and turn the situation into the harmonious one she sees as ideal. As a type one, I wouldn't even consider apologising if I thought I was actually in the right and apologising would undermine that, quite regardless of the effect that it might have on harmonising the situation (though I might indeed want to harmonise the situation, doing a disservice to what I saw as the truth in the circumstances would seem like a compromise too far).

    And how is that fifth bullet point (about her telling me to calm down) 1-related? When anyone else in the entire friggin' world freaks out around her, she's fine with it, and she's nice and reassuring, regardless of whether she wants to be. (Because, based on my experience, that's just how INFJs are.) Only with ME does she get uncomfortable. That's why I figured it was a bad-vibe thing - getting upset that her daughter is upset.
    Again, I think this links back to the tendency for type 2s to feel entitlement with those closest to them. A thought that occurs to me is that perhaps she feels that she tries not to vent at you over things that upset her, therefore expects something similar in return? Just a thought though, as there may be other explanations...

    Not at all! She has a very select group of friends, and an absolutely HUGE range of friendly acquaintances that she doesn't see at all outside of her work. For example: Students. Hundreds and hundreds of students and ex-students who love her and who she often sees. But I still wouldn't call her "social".
    Seems like she's spreading herself out a lot and doing many, many things for others. Seems like it could well represent a type 2 in that typical "helper" mode again...
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Onceajoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    She's incredibly type-A, and can sometimes be pretty bossy (but only towards friends and family); she often doesn't trust anyone except herself to do things, but then she'll make resentful comments at family members, like "Apparently no one cares about getting this done except for me".
    One. Resentful. Type A. Perfectionist.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    She puts so much pressure on herself, with stuff like that, that it's as if she intentionally puts the whole world on her shoulders because she doesn't trust Atlas to do as good a job holding it up.
    One. Uber Responsible. World on their Shoulders "If I don't do it, no one else will"

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    - She worries a lot, and she's a big-time perfectionist (I think she scored 100% J).
    One. Perfectionist.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    - Often, when I get really upset about something and vent to her, she'll feel so much empathy or get such strong bad vibes or something that she'll actually get upset with me and tell me to calm down, instead of being reassuring. She doesn't do this with anyone else that I know of (so maybe it isn't relevant - I dunno).
    It probably is relevant. She overidentifies with you (possibly) since you're also 1w2. She projects her own anxiety.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    She's a lot more Fe with acquaintances than with close friends.- I'd describe some of the INFJs I know as sweet and gentle, but I would not describe my mom that way. If I were to describe her in three words/phrases/etc, they'd be "opinionated", "clever", and "type-A".
    One. Opinionated. Clever. Type A - possibly she's borderline INTJ.

    I think the first part you posted about the Four and childhood is One going to Four. Maybe she had difficulties in childhood.

    I say 1w2, just like you. BTW: I'm right because I'm 1w2 and Ones know everything.

  5. #15
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onceajoan View Post

    I say 1w2, just like you. BTW: I'm right because I'm 1w2 and Ones know everything.
    Ones, however, are prone to doubt themselves. You might be a type 2 as well come to think of it!
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Onceajoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Ones, however, are prone to doubt themselves. You might be a type 2 as well come to think of it!
    I've got a strong Two wing, if that counts. I also am a strong J so I make decisions (judgments) easily and trust my decisions implicitly. A strong moral center helps. Ones know what's right and what's wrong. Unfortunately, the rest of the world doesn't know and doesn't comply. (I'm joking here).

    Sixes are much more likely to doubt themselves and look to others for guidance and direction. I thought that also might be a good guess.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onceajoan View Post


    One. Resentful. Type A. Perfectionist.



    One. Uber Responsible. World on their Shoulders "If I don't do it, no one else will"



    One. Perfectionist.



    It probably is relevant. She overidentifies with you (possibly) since you're also 1w2. She projects her own anxiety.



    One. Opinionated. Clever. Type A - possibly she's borderline INTJ.

    I think the first part you posted about the Four and childhood is One going to Four. Maybe she had difficulties in childhood.

    I say 1w2, just like you. BTW: I'm right because I'm 1w2 and Ones know everything.


    Agree with everything here.. and also about childhood.. it's very typical for people to act as their stress point in childhood, i know bunch of 8s who acted as 5s for years, 3s as 9s and 7 as 1.
    so totally makes sense if she acted as 4. if your observation is correct, it could simply be that she's INF too.

    and as 2 you want help people to get something from them in return, and if you dont you get pissed. is she like that? dont think so.... and she'd have to want other people depend on her... and define herself through others... with "Bob's wife", "EJCC's mom" ... never "ME"

    when I was watching movie about Paul McCartney's marriage with Linda , she seemed very 2 imo, i liked her and she was special but appeared as she organized her all identity around Paul, and 2s use a lot sexuality to manipulate others, she seemed that way (before paul)

    anyway, 2 is the rarest E type of all, and it's suggested that you type as 2 only if you eliminated all others, especially NFs because NFs are prone to codependence and 2 and codependence looks so much alike, except that you can get rid of codependence issues but you cant 2, you'll always be one if you are.

  8. #18
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onceajoan View Post
    I've got a strong Two wing, if that counts. I also am a strong J so I make decisions (judgments) easily and trust my decisions implicitly. A strong moral center helps. Ones know what's right and what's wrong. Unfortunately, the rest of the world doesn't know and doesn't comply. (I'm joking here).

    Sixes are much more likely to doubt themselves and look to others for guidance and direction. I thought that also might be a good guess.
    6 would be my second guess, one would be third in preference, but quite a distant possibility compared to the first two. I was leaning towards one to begin with, then very seriously considered six as a more likely alternative, but in the end the combination of characteristics seemed to be pointing most strongly at type 2; in particular 2w1. It's tempting to look at characteristics in isolation, more rewarding, however, if you're trying to determine someone's most plausible type, to look at the overall pattern to be expected of that type and determine which they best fit into.

    For the reasons I've outlined, it seems (at present, this is open to revision as far as I'm concerned) that she best fits the pattern of an assertive type 2 - a type I'm personally pretty familiar with, having had a number of close relationships and encounters with the type. She shows certain behaviours and attitudes that I would consider to be relatively untypical in type 1s but extremely characteristic for type 2s, as EJCC has highlighted. In the absence of further evidence I'm going to favour the more plausible, because complete, explanation at this stage. I'm not completely certain by any means, as such issues as self-perception of appropriate gender roles and simple individual difference have to be considered as important factors; but I do think that if we attempt to synthesise her characteristics at present they better fit the type 2 pattern of self-sacrifice, self-avoidance, focus on others and pridefulness than they do the type 1 pattern of perfectionism, seeking to assertively "do the right thing" to make changes in the world and repression of personal frustrations. In particular, I think the tendency to want people to help her without actually asking them to, then becoming frustrated with them for not doing so, the particularly heavy expectations she seems to place on those closer to her (and her tendency to be harsher and less sympathetic to them in consequence) and her preference to avoid and diffuse conflict at all costs as opposed to asserting her personal belief in what is right are very classic type 2 patterns, which I would expect to be uncommon in type 1s. If you're going to say she's a type 1, I do think you need to explain these satisfactorily. Or EJCC could just get her to do a good test and save us all the bother!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chloé View Post
    Agree with everything here.. and also about childhood.. it's very typical for people to act as their stress point in childhood, i know bunch of 8s who acted as 5s for years, 3s as 9s and 7 as .
    so totally makes sense if she acted as 4. if your observation is correct, it could simply be that she's INF too.
    With this one, I prefer personally to simply wait for information on what sort of childhood she had. I don't regard the theorised mechanisms of the stress or integration points as anything like conclusive, any more than the wings, but they might just help to corroborate her type if there is anything in them.

    and as 2 you want help people to get something from them in return, and if you dont you get pissed. is she like that? dont think so.... and she'd have to want other people depend on her... and define herself through others... with "Bob's wife", "EJCC's mom" ... never "ME"
    Well, how many type 2's have you known and been able to identify with certainty? It's a type that one would expect to be reasonable and relatively frequent for Fe types, I have encountered a number of people who posess strong type two characteristics, and far fewer type 1's; yet type 2 appears to be one of the rarest types on this site and on other personality-related sites online. This does make me suspect that there is a lot of misunderstanding of how type 2 characteristics actually manifest and a high tendency to mistype them by self and others due to the percieved negative characteristics of the type - unless it's simply the case that type 2's are commonly less interested in investigating their own personalities than many other types. This is plausible, but doesn't carry any particular weight at this stage. I refer you to your later comment as you appear to think the type itself is rare:

    anyway, 2 is the rarest E type of all, and it's suggested that you type as 2 only if you eliminated all others, especially NFs because NFs are prone to codependence and 2 and codependence looks so much alike, except that you can get rid of codependence issues but you cant 2, you'll always be one if you are.
    I honestly don't think it IS the rarest type. Type 2 characteristics are something I've encountered pretty commonly Irl, it may in fact be the commonest type. At all events, it represents something of an idealised one for many people, particularly women. If you're going by onlinepatterns you might as well say that ESFJ is the rarest MBti type too, but this would be self-evidently absurd.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Porcelain Hearts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    It's no secret! She seriously said to me on MORE THAN ONE occasion: "I refuse to watch Tom Cruise movies anymore, because he cheated on his wife."
    LOLL I literally laughed out loud when I read that.

    My mom's a very judgmental person too. She's an ISFJ that can relate to a lot of what you've posted. She's very dedicated and pretty hard on herself to fulfill the parental role.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    @ragashree and @Onceajoan helped nail this typing down. Putting it all together you have a 2w1, the more altruistic wing of the 2.
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