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  1. #1
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Default Video: Ask Dr. Mike: Introverted and Extraverted Feelings

    • Dr. Mike talks about the difference between extraverted and introverted feeling.

      Here are notes from the discussion.

      You speak extraverted functions. You listen with your introverted functions. In order to understand this, you really need to look at the functions and how they interrelate with each other – for example Fi + Ne and the specific ordering of those functions. Looking at functions in isolation is too reductionary.

      Introverted feeling is the listening version of feeling. The way we hear something is the way it makes us feel.

      Extraverted feelers speak through their feelers. It is feeling language. They are good at expressing and talking through feelings.

      On selfishness – he feels it is a little misunderstood. It’s not that Fi types are selfish. It’s that they are self-absorbed. This is when you are hyper focused about your own experience and what is happening to you. That is not the same as narcissism or things centering abound you. It is not a feeling of superiority. You can be humble and still can be self-absorbed. You are hearing the world through your feelings and when the world comes in, it has an effect on your emotions – it’s a direct emotional experience. It’s not selfishness. It is self-absorption.

      INFP has this very deep feeling – very good emotional listeners. It’s like a dog that hears on another emotional bandwidth. Goes right to their heart. Some do come across as very self-absorbed for that reason.

      XNFP types express concepts and abstractions. They feel deeply inside but don’t express things that way. It is easier for the ENFP to talk about their inner world than the INFP because ENFPs they have a stronger extraverted function (Ne). The INFP can’t get it all out. They will say all the time that they can’t express how they feel. Fi types will put themselves in the shoes of the other person.

      Looking at XNFJ and Fe types - they care but they are not as sensitive as Fi types. It’s because they don’t listen as much with their feelings. The feeling itself is the communication of what is going on. They are not communicating abstractly. When information comes in, it hits them in a non-emotional place. If you look at INFJs, they are listening with their intuitiveness. They speak through their feeling. The number of abstractions that comes in is a lot more than they are able to express out. That’s why things come out in metaphors, poetry, symbolic – because they don’t have the words. When things are coming in, they are not hitting the heart. Feeling judgment is more objective with Fe types. With ENFJs – you are never confused as to where they stand. They can talk very strongly about ideas that they don’t understand as well as compared to an INFJ. ENFJs will come across as smarter than then they are. They can be more insensitive. They are speaking through an emotional place and not from an emotional place. What is behind that is not necessary emotional – it is objective in a way. INFJ will always understand more than you think they do.

      The most important points are to:
      1. Take into account this holistic combination of functions that a person has – look at how they are hearing and how they are feeling.
      2. You can’t mistake the way people talk for the way they listen – biggest lesson of all of this.
      3. Don’t judge a type by the standards of your type. You judge a person through your own process – this is why Fi types can be viewed as selfish. You are judging them by your standards.
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  2. #2
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    • Dr. Mike talks about the difference between extraverted and introverted feeling.

      Here are notes from the discussion.

      You speak extraverted functions. You listen with your introverted functions. In order to understand this, you really need to look at the functions and how they interrelate with each other – for example Fi + Ne and the specific ordering of those functions. Looking at functions in isolation is too reductionary.

      Introverted feeling is the listening version of feeling. The way we hear something is the way it makes us feel.

      Extraverted feelers speak through their feelers. It is feeling language. They are good at expressing and talking through feelings.

      On selfishness – he feels it is a little misunderstood. It’s not that Fi types are selfish. It’s that they are self-absorbed. This is when you are hyper focused about your own experience and what is happening to you. That is not the same as narcissism or things centering abound you. It is not a feeling of superiority. You can be humble and still can be self-absorbed. You are hearing the world through your feelings and when the world comes in, it has an effect on your emotions – it’s a direct emotional experience. It’s not selfishness. It is self-absorption.

      INFP has this very deep feeling – very good emotional listeners. It’s like a dog that hears on another emotional bandwidth. Goes right to their heart. Some do come across as very self-absorbed for that reason.

      XNFP types express concepts and abstractions. They feel deeply inside but don’t express things that way. It is easier for the ENFP to talk about their inner world than the INFP because ENFPs they have a stronger extraverted function (Ne). The INFP can’t get it all out. They will say all the time that they can’t express how they feel. Fi types will put themselves in the shoes of the other person.

      Looking at XNFJ and Fe types - they care but they are not as sensitive as Fi types. It’s because they don’t listen as much with their feelings. The feeling itself is the communication of what is going on. They are not communicating abstractly. When information comes in, it hits them in a non-emotional place. If you look at INFJs, they are listening with their intuitiveness. They speak through their feeling. The number of abstractions that comes in is a lot more than they are able to express out. That’s why things come out in metaphors, poetry, symbolic – because they don’t have the words. When things are coming in, they are not hitting the heart. Feeling judgment is more objective with Fe types. With ENFJs – you are never confused as to where they stand. They can talk very strongly about ideas that they don’t understand as well as compared to an INFJ. ENFJs will come across as smarter than then they are. They can be more insensitive. They are speaking through an emotional place and not from an emotional place. What is behind that is not necessary emotional – it is objective in a way. INFJ will always understand more than you think they do.

      The most important points are to:
      1. Take into account this holistic combination of functions that a person has – look at how they are hearing and how they are feeling.
      2. You can’t mistake the way people talk for the way they listen – biggest lesson of all of this.
      3. Don’t judge a type by the standards of your type. You judge a person through your own process – this is why Fi types can be viewed as selfish. You are judging them by your standards.

    This tends to be a popular hot-bed on a lot of forums. This and SE vs. SI but this one seems more difficult to grasp initially.
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    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @highlander

    Thanks for posting this. I actually tend to agree with Mike on this.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  4. #4
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I finally got around to watching this video.

    Firstly- more as an aside- yes, there is a big difference between being self-absorbed and exuding some sense of superiority. I don’t think they’re even particularly in the same ballpark, or that they’re easy to mistake for one another- so I don’t understand how this guy thinks they get conflated. Even the capacity to refer to it as “self-absorption” is an indication of humility. [While this guy seems to see a significant difference between “selfish” and “self-absorbed”- I personally wonder if INFPs wouldn’t still find “self absorbed” to fall short in describing that world view. In my mind, the difference is that the former carries a stigma of active indifference towards the well-being of others and the latter a stigma of obliviousness to the well-being of others. “Self-absorbed” is, imo, still a somewhat derogatory phrase (if especially for an NF, I’d think)- moreso than the guy in the video seems to believe? ]

    I suspect “self-absorbed” is to INFP what “paranoia” is to INFJ: it’s a somewhat short-sighted/depreciating way to explain what that thought process looks like from an outside perspective. While it can be said that both are true (from the outside)- to say simply “paranoid” or (I’d think) “self-absorbed” belies adequate understanding of how that (respective) internal landscape works. While he does explain that (dogs hearing other frequencies analogy)- he also keeps saying Fi “is self absorbed,” instead of emphasizing “appears to be self absorbed.” So anyway, that was distracting to me- I think I’d take umbrage if I were an INFP. I personally think “self absorbed” isn’t that far removed from “selfish”- I’d think Fs (if not especially NFs) would agree, but maybe that’s just me.

    As far as what he says about INFJs:

    I think he’s spot on when he says incoming information hits a non-emotional place. This isn’t to say it won’t cause an emotional reaction- but the information definitely really does go to an unemotional place. Any emotional reaction usually just serves to push processing that information at a faster pace- but it feels like my emotions have almost nothing to do with the information, the emotion has to do with my reaction to the information. In such instances where there’s an emotional charge, it can be highly noticeable- and I presume that is what he means by “speaks through feelings”. And just like he mentioned how NFPs can sound like they are more emotionally invested in the ideas they're putting forth than they really are- I think Fe tends to come across as having a lot more conviction than is actually there.

    He says we’re not sensitive- I’d say it’s more that we’re not sensitive to the same things. When some important aspect of some pattern emerges- such as inconsistencies- though we generally aren’t able to articulate for an infuriatingly long time (“They’re taking in far more abstract communication than they can communicate out” is exactly right), we are incredibly sensitive to it. I think most of us try to ignore it until we can articulate it, or until we’ve got some bloody knife in hand to avoid sounding paranoid- but we’re very sensitive to it. We can’t turn it off. I think this is the whole reason we are notorious for simply backing away- if we weren’t so sensitive to incoming information, if it were available to simply *not* be sensitive to it, we would turn it off when it becomes unbearable.

    Towards the end, I very much agree with this too: “When you’re dealing with an INFJ, you have to realize they are taking in ideas very abstractly, very unemotionally. That’s what goes in. What comes out, they talk through their feelings. So how do you deal with them? You realize that their feelings are their way of communicating, not ways of thinking. They aren’t communicating feelings, they’re communicating through feelings and what’s behind that is unemotional.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #5
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Default Video: Ask Dr. Mike: Introverted and Extraverted Feelings

    This guy rambles way too much. It's a 90 seconds before he actually says anything!

  6. #6
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    All introverted functions are "self-absorbed". Fi is not any more or less so. If it appears that way, it's only because it deals with the realm of value in relation to the human experience. The self is a prototype for human, but it's not the self that the indiovial is actually fascinated with, but what truths it reveals, especially about human nature and what is meaningful, etc. This is true of all introverts; although they may deal with different realms, the inner world (what we are referring to as the self here) is focused on as the valid way to understand reality. Calling this self-absorbed is something of an extroverted prejudice, much as the introvert may carry the prejudice that the extrovert is shallow. The extrovert actually focuses on the self too, it's just that they define it in relation to the external, and I doubt that most of us would struggle to recall an extrovert who came across as very into themselves...

    I call myself self-absorbed, but in person, no one calls me that. I'm accused of being withdrawn and holding back, but not being so into myself that I am unaware of or disinterested in others or inconsiderate. I consider this a 4 issue anyway, not a Fi issue. Enneagram 4s, whether Fi or Fe types, can be self-absorbed, but 9w1s usually are not (arguably, the most common INFP).

    Other INFPS I know are never called selfish or self-absorbed and certainly don't seem that way at all. Rather, they do display the trademark intent listening and don't interject much with anything about themselves. I think we come across as lost in thought, basically.

    This is just internet prejudice and not realizing the very reasons Fi could be called self-absorbed applies to all introverts. This also makes the common mistake of equating feeling with emotion. It makes some good points, but pehaps is pandering to popular ideas in some ways, which detracts a bit.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  7. #7
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Hmm, self-*PING* for later perusal.

    Edit: why did I miss this the *first* time around? It's been three months...
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

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