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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #701
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    my ESTJ friend's birthday is coming up and there are two things in life she totally loves- cooking or historical fiction novels... I can't decide whether to get her something food related or a novel

    any input on which would be more sensible?

    (for background, she and her husband even take cooking classes together... and she rides the metro to work and reads while riding)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #702
    [bento boxed] EJCC's Avatar
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    I'd probably go with both. You could get her a novel (I'd recommend one of the Master and Commander books if she hasn't read them already, and I've heard "Wolf Hall" is amazing) and some cooking-related goodie that she needs. e.g. if you've heard her complaining about not having a good spatula or something.

    Of course, I don't know your spending limit or anything...
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  3. #703
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    What do ESTJ women make of certain 'feminine' behavioral expectations from more 'traditional' family, friends or romantic partners? For instance, that they be emotionally sensitive, not too loudly opinionated, docile, not overly ambitious, etc. So (I'm thinking specifically of you EJCC ) is it usually 'enough' to knit, cook, etc.? Or are there sometimes more expectations related to your manners and way of approaching people than related to your work, preferred activities and hobbies themselves?
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    cataplum!

  4. #704
    [bento boxed] EJCC's Avatar
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    ^ I was lucky enough to grow up in an environment that didn't really involve gender roles. My mom did do all the cooking, but that was because my dad worked long hours and couldn't do any himself. Based on school, family, etc, I'm to the point where I hardly think about my gender at all (e.g. sometimes I'll have the thought "Oh right, I'm a girl! I forgot that it actually MATTERS" ). So in terms of hobbies and such, my love of knitting and cooking literally has NOTHING to do with my gender. In fact, a man's clothes were what inspired me to knit.

    Specifically, this man's clothes:

    When I was in late elementary school/late middle school, I fell in love with Pokemon, and, in turn, fell in love with Ash Ketchum's gloves. This was before fingerless gloves were back in fashion, so there was nowhere to buy them. Therefore, a couple of years later, I started to knit so that I could make fingerless gloves for myself. And I did!

    But to answer your question...
    1. When people expect women to act a certain way similar to what you mentioned, it makes me SO ANGRY! Especially angry, since I can't REASON with those people, because those beliefs AREN'T RATIONAL, and I don't do well when I try to debate irrational people.
    2. There are some gender expectations that I have to deal with. Most of those expectations are from other girls, actually, and those expectations involve me needing to fake Fe at them, i.e. pretending like I'm happy to see them all the time, pretending like I care about their problems, pretending like I'm okay with how incredibly boy-centric their minds are when I couldn't care less about that sort of gossip. I think my ESTJ-ness makes me a bit intimidating to guys my age, which has made it difficult to get dates... but whatever.

    You have no idea how thankful I am that I didn't grow up in a decade where women were expected to be any/all of those adjectives you listed. Things are so much better now *sigh*
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #705
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    my ESTJ friend's birthday is coming up and there are two things in life she totally loves- cooking or historical fiction novels... I can't decide whether to get her something food related or a novel
    any input on which would be more sensible?
    (for background, she and her husband even take cooking classes together... and she rides the metro to work and reads while riding)
    Why not a book or cooking voucher? If somebody tried to give me something in my passions (fantasy fiction, physics, writing), it would probably be something I have got already or something I'm not interested in. I'm not morally obligated to be interested in everything that has something to do with physics, even if I *am* a physicist. New Age ravings about quantum mechanics, no thank you. Problem is, if you aren't a physicist (and probably you aren't), it's practically impossible to distinguish between an interesting physics-related gift and something nonsensical.
    I guess it would be the same with any other passion you don't share. You don't know the subject well enough to know what is interesting to the other person.
    Or would that appear too "impersonal"? If I know the ESTJs well enough, "practical" is more worth than "personal"

    About the expectations for females... I'm happy I don't have to live the nightmare BlueSprout described. The only thing that our society needs to learn now is to liberate the men, too. If it's perfectly okay for a girl to be interested in marbles and cars, why wouldn't it be okay for a boy to be interested in fashion?

    Edit: I'm laughing now because of your motto, EJCC. Can I have some Te too? Mine is exhausted already :P
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  6. #706
    [bento boxed] EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Why not a book or cooking voucher? If somebody tried to give me something in my passions (fantasy fiction, physics, writing), it would probably be something I have got already or something I'm not interested in. I'm not morally obligated to be interested in everything that has something to do with physics, even if I *am* a physicist. New Age ravings about quantum mechanics, no thank you. Problem is, if you aren't a physicist (and probably you aren't), it's practically impossible to distinguish between an interesting physics-related gift and something nonsensical.
    I guess it would be the same with any other passion you don't share. You don't know the subject well enough to know what is interesting to the other person.
    Or would that appear too "impersonal"? If I know the ESTJs well enough, "practical" is more worth than "personal"
    I think that a gift certificate to a favorite bookstore or favorite electronics/appliances/cooking-utensils store (whatever you call dem things) might be just as good as, or better than, what I previously described. Even if it's more impersonal, it still shows you know them well, and that you thought about it before you bought it.

    About the expectations for females... I'm happy I don't have to live the nightmare BlueSprout described. The only thing that our society needs to learn now is to liberate the men, too. If it's perfectly okay for a girl to be interested in marbles and cars, why wouldn't it be okay for a boy to be interested in fashion?
    +1

    Edit: I'm laughing now because of your motto, EJCC. Can I have some Te too? Mine is exhausted already :P
    Here you go!
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #707
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Thanks!
    That was a really strong cup of Te, it helped me through the spelling and grammar check of my novel
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  8. #708
    Senior Member ChildoftheProphets's Avatar
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    Default Improving Relations

    Hello, I'm new to the forums, and once I realized that this thread had nearly 700 more pages after the first 14, I decided to stop reading, and just get straight to the asking (so I apologize if this has come up before):

    I'm an INFP who has one or two ESTJs in my life whom I don't get along with, and apparently this is a somewhat common problem for people of our types.

    What can I do to strengthen my relationships with them?

    The first is my grandfather, who also happens to have a poor relationship with my dad, an ISTP. The second is my best friend's step-dad, whose house I actually lived in for about two years after high school.

    Both of these SJs exhaust me with their proclivity to talk for literally hours on end sometimes, and they have slowly driven me away from them by their tendency to belittle me and/or other people who do not agree with them on any and all issues.

    I'm in my early twenties right now and I am taking time off from school to develop myself in some nontraditional ways, which both of them do not approve of. I used to try to explain my actions and decisions as respectfuly, logically, and diplomatically as possible, but as time went on I realized that such efforts were futile, insofar as my logic and actions continue to fall short of their expectations and elicit their unwelcome suggestions.

    I know they both want the best for me and both want me to be successful, and I understand that their sarcastic humor is not meant to drive me away, but before I can return to the path they want me to take, I need to keep walking on my own for awhile.

    I just feel bad that my freedom has temporarily come at the cost of our relationships.
    "In the opening and shutting of heaven's gate, are you able to play the feminine part?" -- Lao Tzu

    "For when the One Great Scorer comes
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    He marks - not that you won or lost -
    But how you played the Game."
    -- Grantland Rice

    Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules. -- from The Catcher in the Rye

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do, and what a man can't do." -- Jack Sparrow

  9. #709
    Riva
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    Off topic.

    ESTJs simple but practical nature is truly admirable. Practical, get it done, simple, no delays....

  10. #710
    Senior Member ChildoftheProphets's Avatar
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    Curzon, would you agree that Miles O'Brien was an ESTJ? Uncomplicated?

    Nice avatar by the way. You obviously have very good taste. ; )
    "In the opening and shutting of heaven's gate, are you able to play the feminine part?" -- Lao Tzu

    "For when the One Great Scorer comes
    To write against your name,
    He marks - not that you won or lost -
    But how you played the Game."
    -- Grantland Rice

    Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules. -- from The Catcher in the Rye

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do, and what a man can't do." -- Jack Sparrow

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