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  1. #11
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Logic isn't exactly rocket science.
    Yeah, that's basically what I wanted to say. Perhaps I just hang out among "intellectual" ppl (but I don't think so), but really, logic is...easy.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  2. #12
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    ^No, I don't. It was an example. And all the countries I've lived in (Russia, Norway, Belgium), had a similar focus. I also specified adequate social skills vs specialisation in an earlier post. I recognised that society does penalise you for sucking at it. The specialisation of social skills though is also penalised, as stated above, while Logic skills are encouraged above and beyond. I doubt our country devotes precious school time to social skills either - it is all logic based. Social skills is learned in the playground without any finnesse. It's just a matter of drowning or surviving, and that, society deems good enough. And in college you can study psychology, and Pr and what have you, but even there - the highest degree in psychology is a doctorate - and its all IQ and research based. It's the scientist approach. And from what I've seen, the people I know, you don't need social skills or any EQ *whatsoever* to be granted a doctorate in psychology, or any of those fields.

    It is the perfect testament to our obsession with logic and reason, aka IQ.

    Funny enough, I have more respect for those who are actually competent counsellors and only hold a Bachelors or a Masters in Psychology as they *actually* know what the fuck they are doing within their field, as they are putting their knowledge to use instead of just observing. Sadly, their competence aint guaranteed by that degree either. PR, yes you need to have some social graces to get ahead, but mostly enough to game the system. If I see what kind of laughable standard we demand from 'social professions', compared to the average standard set on IQ in most jobs, I want to cry. Bunch of fucking EQ frauds, no offence.
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  3. #13
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Overall, in most of the world, IQ is still the thing that is measured and appreciated most and often the definition of intelligence. And that thing relates for the most part to NT strengths - which is not to say that other types cannot score high.
    The stats seem to show it as an INxx and the N type of intelligence, not NT. I'm not disagreeing with your basic idea, but instead of calling it "IQ", I'd just call it "NT" type of intelligence.

    I've never felt intellectually inferior to anyone I've dated, including NTs. Perhaps I was, maybe they thought I was, but I didn't think so . I don't know my IQ, nor do I care.

    Now, people I date have felt an "inferior sense of aesthetics" as compared to me. I'm not talking good looks, but tastes. And rightly so, because I had a more refined taste. "EQ" (if by that, you mean casual social skills), though, I am usually inferior, unless it's an INTx.

    In the end, people like you will find it easier to date, so I really have no sympathy. If not having fantastic social skills did not have any stigma or not create real problems than there wouldn't be so many embittered INTx types 'round here.

    Not being able to define what you like about someone is more an individual's problem with their own Feeling (they experience it as very emotional, hard to put into words), not a commentary on what is valued in society. The average, say, ExFJ would likely be able to articulate clearly what they feel for you & why with ease - because they naturally put emotion into rational feeling terms. Maybe this is just who you hang around then, because I don't find it strange to hear people say they like someone because they are charming, fun, personable, warm, sweet, etc. This seems more highly valued for women especially.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  4. #14
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The stats seem to show it as an INxx and the N type of intelligence, not NT. I'm not disagreeing with your basic idea, but instead of calling it "IQ", I'd just call it "NT" type of intelligence.

    I've never felt intellectually inferior to anyone I've dated, including NTs. Perhaps I was, maybe they thought I was, but I didn't think so . I don't know my IQ, nor do I care.

    Now, people I date have felt an "inferior sense of aesthetics" as compared to me. I'm not talking good looks, but tastes. And rightly so, because I had a more refined taste. "EQ" (if by that, you mean casual social skills), though, I am usually inferior, unless it's an INTx.

    In the end, people like you will find it easier to date, so I really have no sympathy. If not having fantastic social skills did not have any stigma or not create real problems than there wouldn't be so many embittered INTx types 'round here.

    Not being able to define what you like about someone is more an individual's problem with their own Feeling (they experience it as very emotional, hard to put into words), not a commentary on what is valued in society. The average, say, ExFJ would likely be able to articulate clearly what they feel for you & why with ease - because they naturally put emotion into rational feeling terms. Maybe this is just who you hang around then, because I don't find it strange to hear people say they like someone because they are charming, fun, personable, warm, sweet, etc. This seems more highly valued for women especially.
    While I concur largely with what you've outlined here, and I do understand, my posts were a ranting/soapbox moment, so do take it with the necessary disclaimers.
    I have no qualms with people not being able to specify what they like, it's more a symptom of the overall problem for me: it is the fact that it is taken for granted and not even deemed worthy of a second of consideration, in which you might actually self-reflect as to what exactly it is you value about that skillset or at the very least acknowledge it as a fucking skill set instead of just a basic perk in the package. You're right that it is highly valued in women, to the point where women who aren't like that necessarily get scorned for it - like not having supposedly enough IQ can get you scorned, for that matter. My problem with it though is that you are supposed to be average. Nothing else. It does not get recognised as something worthy of high praise, it's just something that is part of the basic package, and specialisation gets you fear and labels like 'evil' whereas with IQ, or NT skills, whatever you wanna call you, get you called genius and talented. Meanwhile, for sure, it is expected in women coz of the whole mothering thing. It's just a role that is taken for granted though. It is expected that you smoothe the conversations, that you support and care and make room for 'their genius'. And that bothers me *incredibly*. A spoonful of recognition and humility on their part would be just...lovely. Of course, ironically, that is part of the social skill set so perhaps I'm just...frustrated with ineptitude, the same way they are frustrated with my assumed ineptitude - sorry, I suffered from the blonde bimbo stereotype way too many times and as much fun as it is to prove them wrong and make them eat their words and play the underdog, it's fucking infuriating.

    It reminds me of the time I was a veterinarian assistant. All the doctors insist on being called doctor and being treated with respect - meaning that we had the screaming customers that then went in and were too intimidated by the 'doctor' to do the same, only to have the doctor mock you later as that patient wasn't so hard to handle, was he? Or have the doctor demand you keep their personal preferences in mind when organising their schedule - of 7 fucking different people - and yell at you when they had a bad day, coz hey, thats what you're there for, right? Your job is to smile and take it. Until one day we told them to either change or run the desk themselves. Suddenly they couldn't say enough good things about us and praise us for how hard our jobs really are - despite all the derogatory comments about how what they did was something that nobody else could and our jobs were easy peasy for everyone - coz NOBODY wanted to go near a phone with 3 lines at once, and screaming customers while organising an entire waiting room. Suddenly, they made it a point on their agenda to occasionally at least acknowledge the shit we took for them and from them, as well as the skills it took to multitask and organise like that.


    Tl;dr: it's the typical secretary-boss gripe, basically, that I have with this. And again, this is just one type of other intelligence out there that deserves some modicum of recognition.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    I certainly have more of an NF skillset when it comes to intelligence, but I find my INTP besty doesn't need me to be as "NT smart" as him, just within a reasonable range to follow him. He doesn't want me to solve his puzzles/problems (he likes working alone, anyway), he just wants to explain them to me, and share his work. If I couldn't follow him, then it would be like he's cut off from expressing the things that matter most to him. But as long as I am smart enough to appreciate what he's saying, it's all good.

    Sometimes I think he prefers that I'm not his equal, in this respect. He wants a Watson when he plays Sherlock.

    I'm not sure, if that applies to romantic relationships, but it seems like it could.

  6. #16
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    I think if you find a woman who is emotionally intelligent you would have two birds with one stone.: she would - although might not be on par with you on logic - be able to handle you/understand you and would have the social competence that you desire in a partner.

    Emotional intelligence is more useful that IQ I believe.

    Anyway to give you some ideas without theorizing too much and without getting into the core: Next time you feel a girl is feeling insecure tell her that you are a nerd who likes to read a lot of book etc. Just turn it into a joke.

  7. #17
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    My INTP partner is obviously more intelligent than me in analysis and skill with language. My skill set is completely separate in the arts, so there isn't even an external reason for competition, for which I am thankful. He is really kind and supportive about my intelligence and doesn't think I'm less, but I am.

    I think the difference in language use is an issue and the difference in degree of will and certitude. I go through life very fuzzy like a cloud in both my analysis and language use. He would probably be ideally better off with someone more intelligent at least in language, but at his level that isn't particularly easy to find.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  8. #18
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I don't think it's NT's abilities that necessarily make me insecure so much as their focus on "getting it right" and competitiveness and need to be competent off the bat. To me it seems like undue stress. I easily acknowledge that NTs are better logicians than I am but in some individuals the skills aren't always worth enduring the baggage.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe
    My husband is smarter and more logical than I am, but I can follow his rationale just fine. I don't feel inferior to him. I feel lucky to have his brain at my disposal [...]
    Yeah, ditto. I don't feel inferior either. We have different strengths and I appreciate when we can work together synergistically. I expect my partner to feel the same way. I don't have any interest in someone who sees themself as baseline "better" than me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung
    I find my INTP besty doesn't need me to be as "NT smart" as him, just within a reasonable range to follow him. He doesn't want me to solve his puzzles/problems (he likes working alone, anyway), he just wants to explain them to me, and share his work. If I couldn't follow him, then it would be like he's cut off from expressing the things that matter most to him. But as long as I am smart enough to appreciate what he's saying, it's all good.
    Yeah, exactly. I think it's great when it's like this.

  9. #19
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    My wife is smarter than me in many areas. She doesn't seem to think so, which really irritates me.

    She's also much better at functioning in the everyday world, which I occasionally struggle with, so even if I am smarter (which I'm not), what good is that intelligence if I can't remember to turn off the stove or take care of our finances?

  10. #20
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Plus humility is something that is valued - especially in women still- and taught as a social skill, so you do not invoke jealousy or envy from others to keep the communication going and flowing.
    Humility is valuable to an extent. But, if you are too humble, people say you lack self-confidence. And if they say you lack self-confidence, they think you lack skills. Sucks, but that's the way most people think.

    Even myself.


    Meanwhile, being ruthless with logic, and 'impersonal' in taking advantage of others due to circumstances instead of by influencing them directly is considered compeitive and part of real life and how you become successful, somehow
    It is unclear to me how "influencing them directly" isn't a form of manipulation; you didn't say "communicating directly", and to me that suggests something that I would perceive as manipulation. Because they are more convinced that they are doing the right thing? The boundary seems arbitrarily defined as far as I can tell. I don't like hearing about the value of authenticity mostly because it makes no sense (not because I think manipulation is good), and being told when I point this out that I'm thinking about it too much doesn't really help.

    I do feel someone trying to influence me by trying to make me think it is about me, when it is partially about them is a form of manipulation. I don't care how good the intentions are. Someone who respects me as a person owes me the truth. If the intentions are honorable, then what is the secret?

    The only thing you could really do was grab the popcorn and watch them run circles around themselves and their ego, without them even realising it. That was kinda fun though.
    This is the kind of "compassion" a lot of NTs are used to from types with more people skills. This is probably why there is the tendency (which does exist) to look down or dislike types with more people skills. I am not saying that it is fair, but perhaps that is what was going on.

    I think some NTs also react poorly to NFs trying to "help them grow" in a manner that involves them acting more like NFs. The reasons for this can be varied, but perhaps some of them tried that and found they had to give up or sacrifice things that were important to them.

    I am not saying we shouldn't volunteer to feed the homeless or anything. I am saying that I think well-intentioned nfs with excellent people skills sometines are blind and deaf to what the NT truly wants out of life. It is often very different from what the NF wants. I find for instance, that the admiration and approval of others is worthless if it doesn't include the things I love, but a lot of people frown on as being a waste of time. If those are things I will have to continue to hide, or are not shared interests, I doubt that I would be happy in a romantic relationship.

    Hopefully you can read through some of the sarcasm and see the elements of sincerity present above. I can speak primarily of what I know through my own experiences so if I am assuming more common ground among NTs than their really is, I apologize.

    I know I could get more women if I was better at hiding stuff that people found off-putting, but what is the point? It is odd how someone can champion authenticity and then somehow imply that I should try harder to hide this stuff. Again, that is why I usually treat that word as meaningless.

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