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  1. #11
    Senior Member Lucas's Avatar
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    PC rights are probably the best way to go in terms of punishment/reward.

    Stuff like grounding or confinement to room will probably not be a particularly effective punishment if he has any books whatsoever. Basically, don't go for restriction of social contact, because it will be ineffective as a motivator.
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  2. #12
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    I am speaking as an INTP lazy student. Change the school system. Seriously, the way they make most school classes these days focuses way too much on things like rote learning, strict rules and requirements and a focus on the mundane rather than creative aspects of work. If more freedom were given in subjects (where this is possible, not so much math and stuff) then INTPs would do WAY better.

  3. #13
    (blankpages) Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    my ESFJ mom is killing herself (seriously she is overworked already and now this) trying to do my brother's work that he doesn't do.

    she wants to protect him and feels bad for him and does not see it this way. since i can't seem to change my mom's approach on this subject, any ideas on helping motivate my brother?
    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    She's doing him a total disservice by keeping him from learning. It's honestly not good parenting. I'm sure your mother is a very nice person, but you should probably confront her about this. Try to explain to her how this is going to hurt him in the long term. Maybe she's not thinking of it that way.
    I went back and did a double-take after reading marmalade's post. She actually does his schoolwork for him? lol. My mom's ISFJ and has been known to do the same. She's got me and my younger ISTP brother. I never needed to work hard in elementary school, and when I got into high school I smartened up on my own eventually. (She did step in and take over on the occasional project that was left to the last minute). He's had more problems though. Big into video games, doesn't care about much else. My mother's practically done writing and drawing assignments for him in the past. It goes beyond school too; he had a paper route and she'd routinely put all the packages together for him and drive him around, delivering half the fliers. She did the whole thing for him a couple times when he decided he'd rather play with a friend.

    Anyway, how old is this kid? If he's in his mid-teens, I agree with letting him experience the natural consequences. That doesn't always work so well with younger kids. If he's younger, it might be better to impose some more immediate consequences. I know I repeatedly left projects to the last minute no matter how much I hated the panic I'd experience the night before the due date.

  4. #14
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    @OP I'm just gonna assume your brother's type is INTP and has the same condition I've experienced.


    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    The answer is absolutely "natural consequences". He has to fall on his face a few times before he'll "get it". If you guys hand-feed him everything, he's going to think that's the way life works.
    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Feels bad for him?

    She's doing him a total disservice by keeping him from learning. It's honestly not good parenting. I'm sure your mother is a very nice person, but you should probably confront her about this. Try to explain to her how this is going to hurt him in the long term. Maybe she's not thinking of it that way.
    This. I have laid out days because of the fact that I didn't have to do anything. Because my supposed 'rational thinking' tells me that I don't want to do anything and so I don't have to do anything. The higher your mother carries your brother, the harder the fall.

    The "cooperative mindset" doesn't help either. "I don't care if I burden others by my own inactivity, it is them who chose to do these things that I don't really care about." Clear purpose is the most important. Talk to him about what is important. You should also let your brother experience first-hand what it is that he's working for. This may sound extreme, but you could let him experience hunger, homelessness etc.

    Second, your brother has to find something interesting in "work" and participate in work because of the "work". Everything can be interesting, you just have to find the right way of looking and accomplishing it.



    Quote Originally Posted by mrsherlockholmes View Post
    I am speaking as an INTP lazy student. Change the school system. Seriously, the way they make most school classes these days focuses way too much on things like rote learning, strict rules and requirements and a focus on the mundane rather than creative aspects of work. If more freedom were given in subjects (where this is possible, not so much math and stuff) then INTPs would do WAY better.
    I know, right? Personally, I love math, science, philosophy, and everything academia. But I don't like the way their arranging it. This is what I want the most: UNDERSTANDING and STIMULATION. Schools don't provide enough of that but instead they give you labors of do this then do this then do this. In the end, your potential becomes untapped. I want to know "why?" and "how?". I want to talk and explore, not just do these stupid mundane assignments.

    But that's it, most of the people aren't focused on creativity and freedom and schools go with most people.

    Oh wells...if you look for it, there's always a way of pushing creativity into work.

  5. #15
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I know, right? Personally, I love math, science, philosophy, and everything academia. But I don't like the way their arranging it. This is what I want the most: UNDERSTANDING and STIMULATION. Schools don't provide enough of that but instead they give you labors of do this then do this then do this. In the end, your potential becomes untapped. I want to know "why?" and "how?". I want to talk and explore, not just do these stupid mundane assignments.

    But that's it, most of the people aren't focused on creativity and freedom and schools go with most people.

    Oh wells...if you look for it, there's always a way of pushing creativity into work.
    I have an ISTJ IT teacher. It's awful. I think because Js so often go into organisation they're more likely to be running schools and education systems, which is bad news for Ps. I had a task to make a film for IT, and 45% of the mark was for the film. The rest was for design brief, layout, research, diagrams, random computer related knowledge reporting we'd already done for other tasks etc.

  6. #16
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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  7. #17
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    My grandparents always made me do my homework (after a brief rest) before I was allowed to go outside and play or do other fun things.

    I don't see how that's so hard for a parent to do...you know, you've got to do your work before you can play. Ironically, I was left much more to my own devices in high school. There was less enforcement on me at that time. You have to teach kids things like that at a young as possible age.

    However, if he's extremely young (I'm talking like first/second grade) I do agree that they're giving kids too much homework these days when they're way too little. But presuming this kid is at least in fourth or fifth grade...I mean, I can see HELPING him with his homework, but not doing it for him.

  8. #18
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Wait, wait...hang on a second. The mother is doing the INTP's work FOR him? You've got to be kidding. Who's the school trying to educate? The student or his mom?
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  9. #19
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Idk, I know where he's coming from.

    I was a C student in High School not because I wasn't smart enough for it, but because it was boring. as. hell. My ESFJ mom finally realized that the most she could do is be emotional support for me (an uniquely INFP thing) and just accept that I'd get energy to do the things that I found the excitement to energize myself with, and I'd sleep during the classes of all the stuff that wasn't fun.

    Which is how I pulled As and Bs out of AP classes, but skidded through general education classes like Economics with Ds.

    They key to remember is that you CANNOT force him to do it. It's not that he's lazy, it's that he doesn't get excitement out of the things he's doing in school. The best thing she can do is be supportive of the things he does get energy out of, and maintain just enough pressure to keep him from failing.

    But once he gets into college and has the freedom to jump into the things he loves with both feet, he'll really get up and get himself working hard.

    Anyways... yeah. Punishing him by taking away the things that interest him doesn't work. That'll just make him lazy and bored. It's not punishing him because he's not doing anything "wrong". He's just not doing what you guys think is "right". You can't punish someone for that. It's counterproductive.

    The way to do it is encourage him to work hard in the subjects that interest him, and try to keep the rest of his classes rounded out for his GPA. But with that type of student, you can't force him. It just won't work, and it'll do more harm than good...
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  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    my INTP brother is a very smart, very lazy student.

    the problem is that my ESFJ mom is killing herself (seriously she is overworked already and now this) trying to do my brother's work that he doesn't do.

    i say natural consequences. let him fail.

    she wants to protect him and feels bad for him and does not see it this way. since i can't seem to change my mom's approach on this subject, any ideas on helping motivate my brother?
    Offer to do your brother's homework for him, to get your mom off the hook. Then do a lousy job. By the time she figures out what is going on, perhaps sufficient natural consequences will have occurred to show him it is better to do it himself.

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