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  1. #121
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    I know this particular block... It's very much like Ezra says. Do NOT mix feelings/opinions with facts. Use facts and never speculate. Don't get angry or upset, stay calm. And never look like you're in doubt.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  2. #122
    Senior Member JustDave's Avatar
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    ... and when in doubt push'em down a flight of stairs. That always does the trick

  3. #123
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    From my experience with ENTJ debators- they are not necessarily interested in "winning" an argument- but clarifying positions and finding similarities in thinking. I sort of think of it as chipping away at an iceberg- the more you do- the deeper into the sea you fall into, with the tip being the most shallow and vague.

    They are not interested in linear logic either- and tend to want to disprove anything cited with a statistic, more geared towards interconnecting ideas and segmenting them into categories.

    I've noticed a common tactic by some skilled ENTJ debators is that they'll pretend to agree with their opponent on a minor point, hence disarming them, then will use devil's advocate of their opponent's argument using flawed logic, hence winning the argument by default.

    Of course, this is on a formal basis. If you're attempting to win an argument with someone you're in a romantic relationship with, don't bother. ENTJs will suddenly become extremely angry and nitpick every single one of your flaws mercilessly until you're in tears.

  4. #124
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    How on earth does one argue a point with ENTJs? They seem so entirely convinced that they are more logical and correct than I am!
    You can't argue with an ENTJ. You can, however, win an argument with one.

    What i call the concubine's trick. i.e., Approach from a position of submission. Make him/her believe you *really, really* want it this way, and with a "please, i'm dependent on your mercy, you are so big/strong/powerful" shtick, *hero-worshipping eyes* so that he'll 'generously' give in to you. ENTJs have a lot of pride and self confidence. They want to be looked up to. The 'lower' they think you are, the more likely they'll let their guard down around you, and dismiss you as competition, hence giving way to you.

    you gotta be machiavellian enough to do so though. not all may be willing. but if banging your head against a brick wall isn't going to bring it down, then, why not flow around the obstacle? the ends justify the means.

    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    You can't argue with an ENTJ. You can, however, win an argument with one.

    What i call the concubine's trick. i.e., Approach from a position of submission. Make him/her believe you *really, really* want it this way, and with a "please, i'm dependent on your mercy, you are so big/strong/powerful" shtick, *hero-worshipping eyes* so that he'll 'generously' give in to you. ENTJs have a lot of pride and self confidence. They want to be looked up to. The 'lower' they think you are, the more likely they'll let their guard down around you, and dismiss you as competition, hence giving way to you.
    I don't think this would work with any ENTJs I know of. But it would probably work with ENFP males.

    you gotta be machiavellian enough to do so though. not all may be willing. but if banging your head against a brick wall isn't going to bring it down, then, why not flow around the obstacle? the ends justify the means.


  6. #126
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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  7. #127
    Senior Member theshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    You can't argue with an ENTJ. You can, however, win an argument with one.

    What i call the concubine's trick. i.e., Approach from a position of submission. Make him/her believe you *really, really* want it this way, and with a "please, i'm dependent on your mercy, you are so big/strong/powerful" shtick, *hero-worshipping eyes* so that he'll 'generously' give in to you. ENTJs have a lot of pride and self confidence. They want to be looked up to. The 'lower' they think you are, the more likely they'll let their guard down around you, and dismiss you as competition, hence giving way to you.

    you gotta be machiavellian enough to do so though. not all may be willing. but if banging your head against a brick wall isn't going to bring it down, then, why not flow around the obstacle? the ends justify the means.

    im really tired so im not going to say no. but huh? really? that doesnt seem like what should be done with an entj. my advice is simple/ use there system to of thinking to undermine themselves once you have done that you pretty much can tell them what you want. "its a respect thing,"

    hotmales comment about enfp's makes more since.

  8. #128
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotmale View Post
    From my experience with ENTJ debators- they are not necessarily interested in "winning" an argument- but clarifying positions and finding similarities in thinking.

    They are not interested in linear logic either- and tend to want to disprove anything cited with a statistic, more geared towards interconnecting ideas and segmenting them into categories.
    The problem is when someone accuses the ENTJ of simply trying to win by proving flaws in their opponent's logic. This may not be the case, and if not, it can be very annoying. It's really undermining to the ENTJ.

  9. #129
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotmale View Post
    I don't think this would work with any ENTJs I know of. But it would probably work with ENFP males.
    Quote Originally Posted by theshadow View Post
    im really tired so im not going to say no. but huh? really? that doesnt seem like what should be done with an entj. my advice is simple/ use there system to of thinking to undermine themselves once you have done that you pretty much can tell them what you want. "its a respect thing,"

    hotmales comment about enfp's makes more since.
    well. whatever works, i'll take it.

    had cited it as a personal experience actually, worked like a charm for me. forgot one thing though: gender difference. perhaps it matters when dealing with them? plus, different entjs would react differently, i guess. depending on the degree of how strongly ENTJ they are.

    dinner time!
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  10. #130
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    Attack the ENTJ personally through using smart rethoric and logical fallacies he/she would be too slow to respond to. This will put him/her of balance. Then, using your vast ammunition of rationality and logic, go for the kill (throat area preferrably). The ENTJ would back off. Consequence? Victory.

    I speak from experience.

    P.S.
    In fact, this strategy works against all types, except the INTP, or perhaps ENTP also.

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