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  1. #41
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Exactly, because of your twisted perception of extraverted feelers. Those who need people and human warmth and can't get any of it will turn out to be desperate and miserable.

    Forget the movie cliches about the evil genius and all this bullshit, I know it's really romantic and tragic and whatnot, but not applicable to real life. ITJs usually do not need the same degree of attachment as other types. They may be quiet and misanthropic, but won't blow your ass up if they hate you, because they don't really fucking care.
    this
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Exactly, because of your twisted perception of extraverted feelers. Those who need people and human warmth and can't get any of it will turn out to be desperate and miserable.

    Forget the movie cliches about the evil genius and all this bullshit, I know it's really romantic and tragic and whatnot, but not applicable to real life. ITJs usually do not need the same degree of attachment as other types. They may be quiet and misanthropic, but won't blow your ass up if they hate you, because they don't really fucking care.
    Agreed. I seriously doubt "unhealthy" INTJs are more likely to become serial killers or shoot up their school or whatever. A healthy INTJ is likely to ignore people they don't like... an unhealthy one - depending on the degree of unhealthiness - is probably more likely to become a hermit than they are to behave violently.

  3. #43
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Exactly, because of your twisted perception of extraverted feelers. Those who need people and human warmth and can't get any of it will turn out to be desperate and miserable.
    I never met someone who "doesn't need people and human warmth". I think 99.9% of people who have no friends and is despised by all around them will hate it, regardless of MBTI type.

    The question is, is an INTx more likely to suffer that than an xNFJ? In my experience, yes.

    Also the tertiary Fi can lead to strong aspects of moralism and inability to accept "what exists", moreso than an Ni-Ti loop.

    But whatever, it's just my experience vs yours I guess. Maybe we had different experiences.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

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  4. #44
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I never met someone who "doesn't need people and human warmth". I think any person who has no friends and is despised by all around them will hate it, regardless of MBTI type.
    Don't quote something I didn't write.
    As I said, ITJs do not need "the same degree of attachment" as an EF type. They are less likely to become depressed because they won't get enough - they need to be in a worse situation to "snap" compared to EFs.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    The question is, is an INTx more likely to suffer that than an xNFJ? In my experience, yes.
    What is your experience? I seriously doubt it's relevance, since I don't think you've managed to gather enough comparable data with INTJs being relatively rare. Being an introvert yourself, you possibly didn't get to know more than two or three of them. Besides, I'd venture a guess that you didn't meet any of the high school butchers. Reading a book about Columbine won't take you close to the minds of the perpetrators.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Also the tertiary Fi can lead to strong aspects of moralism and inability to accept "what exists", moreso than an Ni-Ti loop.
    Moralism, yes. Unreality, no. Te has a strong grasp on reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    But whatever, it's just my experience vs yours I guess.
    I don't think so.

  5. #45
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    Agreed. I seriously doubt "unhealthy" INTJs are more likely to become serial killers or shoot up their school or whatever. A healthy INTJ is likely to ignore people they don't like... an unhealthy one - depending on the degree of unhealthiness - is probably more likely to become a hermit than they are to behave violently.
    Well, unhealthy INTJs can get wrapped up in some pretty impulsive Se-oriented behavior when they get pissed off. It's not pretty.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Well, unhealthy INTJs can get wrapped up in some pretty impulsive Se-oriented behavior when they get pissed off. It's not pretty.
    I'm sure that's true for all types, but there is a huge difference between "impulsive Se-oriented behavior" and blowing someone up.

  7. #47
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Litvyak;1162033]
    Don't quote something I didn't write.
    As I said, ITJs do not need "the same degree of attachment" as an EF type. They are less likely to become depressed because they won't get enough - they need to be in a worse situation to "snap" compared to EFs.
    No you said:

    Those who need people and human warmth and can't get any of it will turn out to be desperate and miserable.
    Clearly implying a comparison with those "do not need" said variable.

    What is your experience? I seriously doubt it's relevance, since I don't think you've managed to gather enough comparable data with INTJs being relatively rare. Being an introvert yourself, you possibly didn't get to know more than two or three of them. Besides, I'd venture a guess that you didn't meet any of the high school butchers. Reading a book about Columbine won't take you close to the minds of the perpetrators.
    Actually due to the field of my interest (socialist activism) I met a high number of INTJ's. I worked itnensely alongside two different INTJ's for a year spell each, getting to know them very well. I also know a fair few others through poltiics. I also used to post on INTJ-forums and have posted here for quite a long time.

    Regarding extraverted feelers, my brother and mother are such.

    Moralism, yes. Unreality, no. Te has a strong grasp on reality.
    But an unhealthy type gets stuck in a loop of their dom and tertiary functions. we are talking about unhealthy INTJ's. Likewise a grasp on reality does not mean that mean that Ni-Fi can accept said reality. By which I mean it sees it as an affront, intolerable.

    Regarding the high school butchers, perhaps you could tell us what you know then?

    Because I am not thinking about emotional people who fell out with a friend and cracked, but regimented, miltiaristic intellectual narcissists who, although very likely subconsciously motivated by intense feelings, in fact consciosuly udnerstood and expressed this as a desire for power and domination over inferior people.

    As such they match the worst tendencies, in an extreme and exaggerated form, of the INTJ's I have known IRL and online.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #48
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Clearly implying a comparison with those "do not need" said variable.
    I don't really see a clear implication. I've expanded my take on this in the second part of my first post, you seem to be fixated on the phrasing instead of the actual meaning. More need for love = greater emotional vulnerability.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Actually due to the field of my interest (socialist activism) I met a high number of INTJ's. I worked itnensely alongside two different INTJ's for a year spell each, getting to know them very well. I also know a fair few others through poltiics.
    Meeting people does not really mean "knowing" them, right?
    So you know two of them very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I also used to post on INTJ-forums
    Those people are not INTJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Regarding extraverted feelers, my brother and mother are such.
    2.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Regarding the high school butchers, perhaps you could tell us what you know then?
    I don't use examples or anecdotes, since neither of us has any real experience on the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    But an unhealthy type gets stuck in a loop of their dom and tertiary functions. we are talking about unhealthy INTJ's. Likewise a grasp on reality does not mean that mean that Ni-Fi can accept said reality. By which I mean it sees it as an affront, intolerable.
    Ni gives vision, Te gives the ability to hold tight to reality, Fi gives moral support. The vulnerability of Ni-Fi is exaggerated.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Because I am not thinking about emotional people who fell out with a friend and cracked, but regimented, miltiaristic intellectual narcissists who, although very likely subconsciously motivated by intense feelings, in fact consciosuly udnerstood and expressed this as a desire for power and domination over inferior people.

    As such they match the worst tendencies, in an extreme and exaggerated form, of the INTJ's I have known IRL and online.
    INTJs are not more militaristic than any other thinkers.
    Intellectual narcissism does not make you shoot people with a shotgun.
    Power and domination won't be achieved through massacres, and Ni knows that.
    Deep feelings might just as well be a subconscious motivation for rationalized moral decisions as immoral ones. I could easily see a detested Fe-dom snap, moreso than an INTJ. Their world consists of being with people and for people, and if they lose this possibility, they might do horrible things.
    INTJs have their own world - the dangers of nerd revenge fantasies are overrated.

  9. #49
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    in my experience it can go both ways. either

    1.)neurotic and clingy, unable to overcome Ni-FI sensitivity/moralism and subordinate it to Te logic;

    or

    2.)completely emotionally retarded and dominated in their thinking by abstract logical with no bearing on reality (like libertarianism).



    not really.
    Seconded. I was going to write, but it was sort of done for me.

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  10. #50
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Meeting people does not really mean "knowing" them, right?
    That's a very INTJ way of looking at it.

    I didn't say I had "met them" I said I "know them" meaning I've been working continuously with them for 3 years, though not as intensely as the other two.

    Those people are not INTJs.
    You could be right, there are probably a hell fo a lot of ISTJ's there. Not many extraverted feelers though I am sure you will admit.

    Ni gives vision, Te gives the ability to hold tight to reality, Fi gives moral support. The vulnerability of Ni-Fi is exaggerated.
    But we are talking about unhealthy INTJs so what is the point in listing what these functions do when developed healthily?

    INTJs are not more militaristic than any other thinkers.
    Well from my experience, I compeltely disagree. The two INTJ's I was good friends with had some very militaristic tendencies, moreso than other types.

    I could easily see a detested Fe-dom snap, moreso than an INTJ.
    Yes, but I think the nature of it would be very different. A cold blooded, planned massacre by a set of gun-nuts driven by ideologies of superiority (even if subconsciously motivated by feelings of rejection), is different to the guy who falls into depression and kills his whole family when he lose shis job, or whatever.

    INTJs have their own world - the dangers of nerd revenge fantasies are overrated.
    I am not arguing it is a high danger. And out of interest then, what do you think an unhealthy INTJ looks like?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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