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Thread: Desiderata

  1. #21
    heart on fire
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    Yeah, that might help.

  2. #22
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    As it was something I found on the front of a card that my ISFJ mother sent me, finding it only after she had died, I can say that I've spent one hell of a lot of time thinking it over. It is good advice for most people, NFs included (certainly kills a lot of ghouls and ghosts of paranoia if it's taken to heart).

    As for a call to duty, perhaps you should READ the thing instead of intuiting what it may say between the first and last letters. It's not about duty except in terms of duty to yourself. It quite clearly shows the reader that they are worth something, that they do have a place in existence and aren't just rattling around. It does NOT however define the reader's place in existence, it just shows that you deserve one just as much as anybody else no matter how you define it or yourself.

    I must say I'm kinda disappointed in the interpretations so far. Did anyone actually read it or just skim over it?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #23
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I must say I'm kinda disappointed in the interpretations so far. Did anyone actually read it or just skim over it?
    I've read it. I had it memorized when I was a kid.


    The author of the OP suggested NFs had some particular association with it.


    That "NF quality" is the thing we've been discussing.




    So far, I don't see any interpretations, just comments that it's not particularly NF (which you also gathered ) and that it could be rewritten in a more idealistic and inspiring manner.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    NFs, you dont have strong opinions concerning ideas this poem invoked in regards to how a life is best lived?
    Sorry are you telling me I don't or asking me for my opinon???


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Max Ehrmann


    Desiderata

    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible without surrender
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even the dull and the ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
    they are vexations to the spirit.
    If you compare yourself with others,
    you may become vain and bitter;
    for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
    Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.


    Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
    it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
    Exercise caution in your business affairs;
    for the world is full of trickery.
    But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
    many persons strive for high ideals;
    and everywhere life is full of heroism.


    Be yourself.
    Especially, do not feign affection.
    Neither be cynical about love;
    for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
    it is as perennial as the grass.


    Take kindly the counsel of the years,
    gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
    Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
    But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
    Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
    Beyond a wholesome discipline,
    be gentle with yourself.


    You are a child of the universe,
    no less than the trees and the stars;
    you have a right to be here.
    And whether or not it is clear to you,
    no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


    Therefore be at peace with God,
    whatever you conceive Him to be,
    and whatever your labors and aspirations,
    in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.


    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
    it is still a beautiful world.
    Be cheerful.
    Strive to be happy.
    Wisdom comes in many forms, and some more cliche than others, this poem contains wisdom that most of us have heard at times but do not always hold close to our hreats (NFs) and our minds (NTs)

    Of course I disagree with it in part, being an occasionaly loud and agressive person.. lol

    I think this kind of thing assists NT's better than NFs because if you can keep it in your mind it may assist an NT to modify their behaviour, by helping alter the their principals. The NF however, will base his decision on the values he feels are most important and though he will read this and understand it to be wisdom, it is a goal to move towrd as he matures through the emotional rollercoaster of this world, modifying his values, softening them, to a point where he walks as himself at peace with his values and those around him. The NT typically makes decisions based upon his principals; which are the result of his thoughts and reasoning, the NFs values are the result of his reasonings combined with the experience of emotional reaction he feels.

    In other words something that is cerebal is going to affect the more cerebal type.

    This was written by an introvert....

  5. #25
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    I've read it. I had it memorized when I was a kid.


    The author of the OP suggested NFs had some particular association with it.


    That "NF quality" is the thing we've been discussing.




    So far, I don't see any interpretations, just comments that it's not particularly NF (which you also gathered ) and that it could be rewritten in a more idealistic and inspiring manner.
    Interpretation would cover inspiration (though that's a personal thing and is , in your case especially, probably dulled due to knowing it for so long [you know being old as you are ), and also what type wrote it.

    As far as I intuit from it, it could be an SF who wrote it (I'm coloured by the factor of my mother having sent it to me) writing what they intuited as a pattern to things (like recognising we all have a right to a place in the world) or it could have been an NF merely pointing out what they consider to be intuitively obvious ( ). So I think that the type is more complex to extrapolate than many have thought about.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #26
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    Wisdom comes in many forms, and some more cliche than others, this poem contains wisdom that most of us have heard at times but do not always hold close to our hreats (NFs) and our minds (NTs)

    Of course I disagree with it in part, being an occasionaly loud and agressive person.. lol
    ? Sometimes?
    *makes note to bring tape recorder to next conversation for purposes of proof*

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    I think this kind of thing assists NT's better than NFs because if you can keep it in your mind it may assist an NT to modify their behaviour, by helping alter the their principals. The NF however, will base his decision on the values he feels are most important and though he will read this and understand it to be wisdom, it is a goal to move towrd as he matures through the emotional rollercoaster of this world, modifying his values, softening them, to a point where he walks as himself at peace with his values and those around him. The NT typically makes decisions based upon his principals; which are the result of his thoughts and reasoning, the NFs values are the result of his reasonings combined with the experience of emotional reaction he feels.

    In other words something that is cerebal is going to affect the more cerebal type.

    This was written by an introvert....
    I think I agree.

    Personally I found it helped my recessive F realise that it should not feel lonely or out of place. It gave me the inspiration to claim that which others claim out of confidence or bravado, so yeah I guess it is introverted now I think about it.

    However I also think it is of great use to the Fs of the world, NF or SF, as it should belay some of that haunting about if they are welcome in the world or not. Perhaps it could bolster the confidence in acting as they feel is right without trying to check and recheck it a dozen times to figure out if they are allowed to be so bold.

    Mind you I'm not that much of an F so I'll take your word for it.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #27
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Xander,

    The problem for the NF specificlly is that when they feel out of place in the world it's not because we don't know that they are welcome.

    This is something I struggle to explain in a way NTs understand. Sometimes it does not matter what I know (I've moved into talking about me as I do not wish to speak for all NFs but I think they feel this too) I can still feel rejected and like I don't belong.

    I know I'm not bad looking, but I feel it and so when I get whisked off by my NF to gaga land, the fact I know I'm not makes no odds to the depression and rejection I'm feeling.

    Recently I was feeling like I was a shit bag, a horrid person of little or no worth to his partners or friends. I thought this because I've hurt people I care about, however I KNOW it isn't really true, but that didn't stop me convincing myself that it was.

    That is what I mean in regards to the peom and NFs, we can know we belong in the world, and while that may dispell an NT's ghosts, it will only slightly affect the NF's.

    I'm so not sure any of that makes anysense. lol

  8. #28
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    The problem for the NF specificlly is that when they feel out of place in the world it's not because we don't know that they are welcome.
    ...

    That is what I mean in regards to the peom and NFs, we can know we belong in the world, and while that may dispell an NT's ghosts, it will only slightly affect the NF's.

    I'm so not sure any of that makes anysense. lol
    I think this makes sense. Let me try to play it back at you.

    "Although the *facts* suggest acceptance when taken at face value, you sense an underlying current suggesting rejection. Regardless of what others say to the contrary, your gut feeling remains."

    Is that what you're saying?
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  9. #29
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    I get it now. It's not T nor F dear boy, it's just I didn't see it before.

    It's like knowing your type, I know that I'm an INTP and I know that I will do certain things like shut people out when I want a little alone time. I know what I do and I know why, changing it however... well that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

    Realisation does not equal actualisation. Well said.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #30
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    I think this makes sense. Let me try to play it back at you.

    "Although the *facts* suggest acceptance when taken at face value, you sense an underlying current suggesting rejection. Regardless of what others say to the contrary, your gut feeling remains."

    Is that what you're saying?
    Bingo!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I get it now. It's not T nor F dear boy, it's just I didn't see it before.

    It's like knowing your type, I know that I'm an INTP and I know that I will do certain things like shut people out when I want a little alone time. I know what I do and I know why, changing it however... well that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

    Realisation does not equal actualisation. Well said.

    Bingo!!!

    Oh I am doing well today....

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