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  1. #51
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I just want to clarify again, that I don't flirt. Unless we're dating or I'm truly into you and even then I wouldn't necessarily call it flirting. And I don't really get the (mostly indiscriminate) drive for flirting for validation or attention, it seems like something you'd want to work on, especially if you continue to do (with other people) once you are in a relationship.

    I'm honestly kinda surprised it's such a common trait for ENFPs and I'm the exception (ha, or at least I think I'm the exception, it's possible I do the same thing in more cases than I'm aware of, I just don't articulate it as such or notice it)

    I just want to chime in again from what aphrodite, ne, and mcd...p..etc (lol) said, you need to be more responsible and aware of where other people are coming from when you are an extravert and "poking" at people or waving them down.

    I personally don't really see how the bad behavior and manipulative flirting described so far in this thread is very different from the 'harmless and friendly flirting' described.

    If the root motivation is to get attention and validation, feel better, etc. it's the same thing in my opinion, the only difference is degree and how far you go with it. That is affected also by how aware/respectful you are of other people's boundaries. But, if you are driven by insecurity or stroking your own ego or your own agenda, then it's very easy to "not see" other people's boundaries or care.

    I almost wonder if the ENFPs describes behaving badly would even care when confronted or if they would bat their lashes in alarm and say "I was just being friendly because I'm so nice and I had no idea you would misinterpret". I wouldn't buy that response. I know you know better or you should (and by 'you' I mean people in general). It's your responsibilty to be, well, responsible. Doe eyed surprised and feigned innocence only goes so far.

    People who are manipulative know they are manipulative. You know when you are getting a reaction or rise out of someone. You know when your hunches are panning out.
    Agreed. It kinda baffles me really. I'm known for many things but mixed signals are pretty much impossible when you are with me. I'm very much aware of what could be interpreted as flirting by nearly everyone. If I'm really interested, chances are I'll have a really hard time saying it out loud... just like that. But if my interest is only on a platonic level I'll make it pretty apparent right from the get go.

    Like I said numerous times I can be quite abrasive/intimidating/whatever in the way I communicate. When chatting with guys there's no danger of them misinterpreting it for ...I dunno....being an actuall ass :P Guys don't usually sugarcoat stuff when talking with each other. I see this trend of guys being a lot "nicer" when chatting with girls in general though. Maybe that's why I never get misinterpreted by girls, because I usually talk exactly the same way.


    I might be subconsciously in denial or something, but threads like this coupled with some other stuff almost makes me doubt my type...

  2. #52
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Aphrodite, your friend's behavior is way past the flirting realm. It is manipulative and would be confusing to anyone. Flirting, for most of us, would imply a generally open, interested, warm approach to the world we live in. We are fascinated by people and love showing it in the way we know best. Your friend seems to have misused that way of being in an unethical manner. The problem seems to be more about questionable ethics and less about the general way of being.
    well, thank you for the validation, but i'm condensing about one and a half year's worth of relating into a few paragraphs. it wouldn't appear to be manipulation in the real world, and didn't. it's really only in hindsight that i can see it all in context; that i was just her latest project and she milked me for all she could get. and there is no doubt in my mind she did all this subconsciously. i just think other enfps could glean something from my sharing of this personal experience and remember that a new person/friend/love interest is not the same thing as a new hobby.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    People who are manipulative know they are manipulative. You know when you are getting a reaction or rise out of someone. You know when your hunches are panning out.

    I wonder if the "manipulative flirts" described in this thread brag about how great they are at flirting? Or if they maintain that they don't flirt and were just being friendly? Or both?
    i honestly didn't know. i thought what i was doing was what the other person needed, even though he said he didn't need what i thought he needed. i was relentless and weilded my fine-tuned Fe like the sword of eowyn *geek alert*, and it was just one of many weapons in my love arsenal. and, yes, i inwardly thought it was pretty cool that i could make men fall down before me, indeed that is how i 'won' my husband. i have only recently come to see it for the manipulation that it truly is.

    but that is in the worst sense of the word 'flirt.' there is obviously a wide range of behavior, but it is the wise person who consciously considers where they fall in that.
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  3. #53
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    love is my hobby, so i am intrigued here. is love selfish? is love unselfish? is love good? is it bad? or is it just a strong emotion waiting to have meaning attached to it, for good or evil?
    You are unique, as is your relationship with your husband. You two have agreed to love each other, even as you open yourselves sexually to others. I respect that, but it is not typical that people feel as capable of freely loving as you do. Most people could never do what you are doing, and one of the biggest reasons why they couldn't is because they view their "love" as a personal possession(mind, body, and soul).

    It is possible for a couple to be close to unconditional love(I believe healthy, open relationships come closest), but most couples(judging by the rates of spousal abuse/divorce and divorce drama) do not achieve this level of unselfish love. Once their needs are unmet(in divorce, in relationship trouble, etc..)
    the "beloved" soon becomes the enemy.

    I just finished reading what you said about using flirting on men in the past, and even your husband, and you seem to regret it. Why is that?

  4. #54
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    You are unique, as is your relationship with your husband. You two have agreed to love each other, even as you open yourselves sexually to others. I respect that, but it is not typical that people feel as capable of freely loving as you do. Most people could never do what you are doing, and one of the biggest reasons why they couldn't is because they view their "love" as a personal possession(mind, body, and soul).

    It is possible for a couple to be close to unconditional love(I believe healthy, open relationships come closest), but most couples(judging by the rates of spousal abuse/divorce and divorce drama) do not achieve this level of unselfish love. Once there needs are unmet(in divorce, in relationship trouble, etc..) the "beloved" soon becomes the enemy.
    Why should the ultimate form of love be unconditional love though? My parents' love for me is probably unconditional but still doesn't make me want to spend the rest of my life with them. :P With romantic relationships though, people often have to sweat a bit to make things work. You can't just do anything and still be loved. And that is fair. I don't want a blind fool to love me unconditionally. There's a reason why they say you can't love if you don't love yourself.

  5. #55
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Aphrodite, your friend's behavior is way past the flirting realm. It is manipulative and would be confusing to anyone. Flirting, for most of us, would imply a generally open, interested, warm approach to the world we live in. We are fascinated by people and love showing it in the way we know best. Your friend seems to have misused that way of being in an unethical manner. The problem seems to be more about questionable ethics and less about the general way of being.
    I have to agree. What this girl was doing is not "flirting" imo. It seems she may have been playing you, or perhaps just lost interest and doesn't realize how interested you genuinely were. That's not flirting though. Flirting has many definitions, but I personally think that flirting is interest LITE. It is playful in the most basic sense, and while it can lead to more serious engagements, in and of itself, flirting is not serious. It is a playful means of communicating. Some people like it, and some people don't and I'm guessing it depends on what your own personal intentions are as to rather you enjoy it or not. If you are flirting with someone with the intentions of going deeper with them, and they are just flirting with you for fun, then there is a more serious issue of mis-communication going on.

    I personally have never been flirted with by anyone and felt "used". I don't take people seriously until they are explicit with me, in word and action(on a consistent basis), that their intentions are serious. That being said, I am not usually the initiator of social interactions, and so it's always been typical that I flirt with others who like to flirt and not with people who are likely to get their feelings hurt.

  6. #56
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Why should the ultimate form of love be unconditional love though? My parents' love for me is probably unconditional but still doesn't make me want to spend the rest of my life with them. :P With romantic relationships though, people often have to sweat a bit to make things work. You can't just do anything and still be loved. And that is fair. I don't want a blind fool to love me unconditionally. There's a reason why they say you can't love if you don't love yourself.
    To me, love is love. I don't believe the ultimate form of love has to be unconditional. But the OP posted a blog by a man who spoke of flirtatiousness as being "selfish". My response is that most love is selfish, and is not unconditional, had he thought of it like this, he wouldn't have seen flirting as an "evil" but as simply another part of the human need to have our needs met. Flirting is a form of communication that seeks to engage another at some level. It goes wrong when people misinterpret signals, or go from flirting to manipulating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobe View Post
    How do you ENFP's show that you are really interested in someone? (not in a flirty way)
    If I'm really interested in someone, I usually wait for the person to express their honest interest in me(in words) and then I will respond in kind. That's when I know the "game" is off, and we're being serious. With people I'm serious with though, I have always done more than just flirt. I will do things to make their life easier, take real interest in their social/family life, help them with anything, do anything for them....ENFPS are known for getting used because we often overextend ourselves to people when we really care about them. I don't know any ENFP who would flirt for the sole purpose of manipulating and using someone else. That seems like a character flaw having nothing to do with type.

  7. #57
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    You are unique, as is your relationship with your husband. You two have agreed to love each other, even as you open yourselves sexually to others. I respect that, but it is not typical that people feel as capable of freely loving as you do. Most people could never do what you are doing, and one of the biggest reasons why they couldn't is because they view their "love" as a personal possession(mind, body, and soul).
    i'm not even sure myself where i/we fall on the polyamory(multiple loves)vs.swinger(multiple sex interludes) scale. what i'm talking about is separate from that, for the purpose of this thread.

    It is possible for a couple to be close to unconditional love(I believe healthy, open relationships come closest), but most couples(judging by the rates of spousal abuse/divorce and divorce drama) do not achieve this level of unselfish love. Once their needs are unmet(in divorce, in relationship trouble, etc..)
    the "beloved" soon becomes the enemy.
    i could see how it could become misconstrued because i have posted various things on various topics, but i have not related a context for what i mean by unconditional love because i feel that is not the point of what i was trying to relate here. for the record, i don't think a 'couple' is necessarily capable of unconditional loving. i see being able to achieve unconditional loving as a personal thing, or way of being. and i am not necessarily including nor excluding my family when i say i am capable of unconditional loving.



    I just finished reading what you said about using flirting on men in the past, and even your husband, and you seem to regret it. Why is that?
    it is not easy to talk about, but i do it because where i am at in my life and with my growth makes me feel compelled to share my story and experiences at times. i kind-of feel sick to my stomach talking about it actually, so i probably won't respond anymore! i think it is not unfamiliar for Fe dom/aux personalities to be able to turn good intentions, or what you perceive is best for others (Ni/Fe?), into manipulation. i have not been the healthiest in that, although i haven't caused that much harm, per se. i just have been paying attention to threads which discuss manipulative abilities, and can see that, combined with flirting and more, i have been guilty of that. furthermore, i do not like the way that if i flirt with another guy, i sort-of lead him on to think that i am emotionally available in a romantic way, which i really am not. i just don't have any desire anymore to lead anyone on in that way. yeah, it feeds my ego and makes me feel good, but since i am not available, it does a slight disservice to the other person, and sends a mixed message which i do not like to convey. perhaps i'm just being sensitive right now, having come off of some personal stuff in that regard. but i DO think regardless, that flirting isn't just the harmless fun it's cracked up to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Why should the ultimate form of love be unconditional love though? My parents' love for me is probably unconditional but still doesn't make me want to spend the rest of my life with them. :P With romantic relationships though, people often have to sweat a bit to make things work. You can't just do anything and still be loved. And that is fair. I don't want a blind fool to love me unconditionally. There's a reason why they say you can't love if you don't love yourself.
    i like your posts. you make me think about things in a different way. i tread uncomfortably close to the relativistic line in most things in my life; i can rationalize and reconcile to the point that i feel like almost nothing matters at times. with two exceptions: my family and close friends. so, for me, unconditional love gives me something to strive for and a healthy context to grow within, while fostering one the the most important focuses in my life: others. i think the most positively influential people in history have striven to unconditionally love others, and that is good enough for me. plus it just feels right and good. loving (not necessarily romantic love) someone feels wonderful to me. loving unconditionally releases me from only being able to do that when another returns the love. perhaps my pursuit of unconditional love is akin to others' pursuit of knowing their God or Gods. ?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  8. #58
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post

    it is not easy to talk about, but i do it because where i am at in my life and with my growth makes me feel compelled to share my story and experiences at times. i kind-of feel sick to my stomach talking about it actually, so i probably won't respond anymore! i think it is not unfamiliar for Fe dom/aux personalities to be able to turn good intentions, or what you perceive is best for others (Ni/Fe?), into manipulation. i have not been the healthiest in that, although i haven't caused that much harm, per se. i just have been paying attention to threads which discuss manipulative abilities, and can see that, combined with flirting and more, i have been guilty of that. furthermore, i do not like the way that if i flirt with another guy, i sort-of lead him on to think that i am emotionally available in a romantic way, which i really am not. i just don't have any desire to lead anyone on in that way. yeah, it feeds my ego and makes me feel good, but since i am not available, it does a slight disservice to the other person, and sends a mixed message which i do not like to convey.
    Well, I appreciate your sharing.

    I've never experienced a time where I've flirted with a guy and he thought I was emotionally/romantically available, when in fact, I wasn't.

    Unless the guy is another NF, I don't see most men going from flirting to thoughts of "emotional availability" and "deep feelings" and all that stuff. I mean, I'm an NF too, and when a man flirts, his emotional availability and rather or not he deeply cares for me is not on my mind. Flirting is a game of lite communication-imo.

    I dated one "romantic" for years, and we were serious from the very beginning because he didn't flirt at all. He was an INFP, and he just flat out told me how he felt and we started from there. But I've had lots of experience with ES..P men who flirt for fun, and I've always enjoyed it and never been hurt by it. Our opinions of things are often clouded by our personal realities, and for me, flirting has never ended in hurt feelings for me, or anyone that I know closely for that matter.

    My husband is an ISTJ, and he actually makes a great flirt too. When women flirt with him, I find that attractive and he finds it attractive when men flirt with me. We have some of the best sex after a night out having gotten hit on by a number of different people.

    It's really about who you are, and what you need. For me, when I feel secure(sexy, attractive, worthy of attention and admiration), I flirt. If I feel insecure(unattractive, uninteresting), then I'm shy, I hide, and I don't flirt because I don't want to be seen or noticed. This is contrary to what a lot of people seem to assume: that people flirt out of insecurity. It seems to me that the most confident people flirt, and the least confident don't.

    Flirting can be fun and innocent, so long as both people understand the terms and conditions of the game. I wonder if extroverts gravitate more towards flirting because of our need to be with other people, interact with them, and impact our social environment?

  9. #59
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    ^ what she said, all of it
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  10. #60
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    My husband is an ISTJ, and he actually makes a great flirt too.
    A ISTJ good at flirting?
    Freedom Isn't Free. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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