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  1. #391
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I have no idea if what I'm calling literal versus contextual-associational communication is actually a thing that anyone has looked at/documented in a more rigorous way. If it is I'd love to get more info on that. I've been lazy and haven't done much searching yet.
    What you're noting is primarily a general difference between Te and Fe. Te types tend to be literal across the board. Te doms are painfully literal at times. But even Te inferior tends to both use and take language at face value.

    eta: wrt to Samvega's example, Ne dom in combination with Fe tert will make him more aware of the ways the word could be socially construed. Noting the direction of how it's construed will form part of the accretion of Si data on "how people react". A potentially literal meaning upon utterance is therefore helpful in this context. In his example, I would have sensed the Ne poised to go in different directions depending on what I said next. Which is why the best answer is, "What do you mean by interesting?'
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    When people see some things as good,
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  2. #392
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    ENTP is constantly passing on judgment about the external object...it's just that they are expressed externally in question form...
    No, they are not. They are accumulating data, which they then choose to use for purposes centered primarly in the present tense. Adaptive, reactive. Optimising on the fly.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #393
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor
    ENTP is constantly passing on judgment about the external object...it's just that they are expressed externally in question form...
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, they are not. They are accumulating data, which they then choose to use for purposes centered primarly in the present tense. Adaptive, reactive. Optimising on the fly.
    It might be wise to separate Judging as function/Rational logic process vs passing judgement - which has been at the core of many issues raised in this thread



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  4. #394
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    @Werebudgie that was an excellent contribution. Not to toss a wrench in it but I would like to add my worst misunderstandings have come from in interactions with IxFPs and IxFJs but that doesn't mean you aren't onto something. It may be a matter of your idea in a scale form so it changes depending on the types involved. Meaning, you see the INFP as more direct and while they're more direct than you they are not more direct than me therefore I have similar issues with them. What you're saying seems like a different perspective on the T/F communication differences.

    As an outsider I would also add that I see the INFJ/INFP pairing as one of the worst of any MBTI type couple. It's like me dating an ENTJ which I would see as equally bad. I'm not saying INFJ/INFP doesn't happen, in fact it's one of the most common but it kind of grosses me out personally and I know many INFJs that report it feeling "wrong". I'm also not sure how on earth an INFJ woman would be able to respect an INFP man though that may be my own issues on how I believe a man should be and really isn't relevant outside of my own mind.

    @PeaceBaby ENTPs can certainly be a pain in the ass with the behavior you mentioned. We like to understand things and people, we see patterns and adapt and adjust. I was reckless with people's emotions when I was younger and the Fe made me not want to face things or truths so I avoided them or lied and as an Enneagram 7 then avoided that I caused hurt by escaping into new and fun things, people or adventures. So, while I'm a T and speak very directly now that I've matured it's because I see that value in not dragging things out, I've learned that most times in my attempted to spare feelings I hurt them far worse, a lesson many INFJs could stand to learn.

    However, even with my direct wording I attempt to draw from the patterns of my past relating to similar people and be more clear, avoid certain types of phrases, add caveats, clarify that I'm not making a judgement, telling the person I care about them so if they feel attacked or I'm hurting their feelings to ask for clarification as I wouldn't intentionally do that and we may have a misunderstanding. This is high energy though and not something I could handle in a close day to day situation or one where I was attempting to get my emotional needs met by the person.

    Is any of what I'm saying still germane? I rant sometimes, clearly.

    This thread does seem to be heading in a positive direction adding much clarification to communication issues between the two types so thank you to those who have shared their experiences, thoughts, and perspectives.

  5. #395
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    It might be wise to separate Judging as function/Rational logic process vs passing judgement - which has been at the core of many issues raised in this thread
    Indeed. Words, so many meanings.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #396
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Meaning, you see the INFP as more direct and while they're more direct than you they are not more direct than me therefore I have similar issues with them.
    Agreed. We are only more direct about certain things. But it is true I think that we tend to take words more at face value. We are more trusting of something, and less trusting of something else, but I would have to pause for a bit to capture that with better words.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #397
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    @Werebudgie that was an excellent contribution. Not to toss a wrench in it but I would like to add my worst misunderstandings have come from in interactions with IxFPs and IxFJs but that doesn't mean you aren't onto something. It may be a matter of your idea in a scale form so it changes depending on the types involved. Meaning, you see the INFP as more direct and while they're more direct than you they are not more direct than me therefore I have similar issues with them. What you're saying seems like a different perspective on the T/F communication differences.
    I was worried that my comment would somehow start a derail, so I'm really glad to hear you find what I wrote useful as a contribution. I'm still looking into possible sources for this difference I'm exploring (literal versus contextual-associative). Am I understanding correctly that you've seen the literal/contextual as a T-F thing? Or is directness something different from literalness, in your view? Or something else?

    Also, since you don't seem to think this line of exploration is a derail, I'll go ahead and tag a couple of INTJs I PMed to see which side of the line they're on if any (trying to figure out if Ni/Ne has anything whatsoever to do with contextual-associative). (@uumlau, @Coriolis if you're willing to reply to my PM question about where you fall in the literal versus contextual communication thing, apparently it isn't derailing the thread to answer publicly if you're so inclined).

    And Samvega, I don't think you're tossing a wrench into anything from sharing information and data from your experiences! Truth is truth in any case. And while I'm certainly curious about the possible source(s) of this difference in me and my INFP re literal versus contextual-associative ... in the end, just explicitly knowing this difference exists and being able to discuss it with each other is much more valuable to us than knowing exactly where it's sourced in each of us. This is just icing on the cake, to explore it like this.

    As an outsider I would also add that I see the INFJ/INFP pairing as one of the worst of any MBTI type couple. It's like me dating an ENTJ which I would see as equally bad. I'm not saying INFJ/INFP doesn't happen, in fact it's one of the most common but it kind of grosses me out personally and I know many INFJs that report it feeling "wrong". I'm also not sure how on earth an INFJ woman would be able to respect an INFP man though that may be my own issues on how I believe a man should be and really isn't relevant outside of my own mind.
    In our case, we're both women, so I don't know how that plays into (or not) your gender dynamic musings.

    To your other comments, this is my situation: I met the love of my life around four years ago, and it turns out she's INFP to my INFJ. The differences are very difficult sometimes. These days it seems to me that the hardest thing about the INFP/INFJ differences in our case is that they can really mask/get in the way of us seeing how very deeply we agree at the core of things. It's coming increasingly clear to us that we resonate quite closely and deeply at that core, but our information processing differences can make it seem like we conflict when we don't. We just come to that core from different and even opposite paths. The differences and our lack of understanding how they work has led to lots of wasted energy. We're learning, though. I really think we are. I hope I'm correct about that. I can certainly understand the sense that the INFP/INFJ pairing can be pretty terrible. If we didn't have such a very strong bond at some really deep levels, I don't see how we would have made it to this point.

  8. #398
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    It might be wise to separate Judging as function/Rational logic process vs passing judgement - which has been at the core of many issues raised in this thread


    I am confused...

    @phobik @PeaceBaby What constitutes as passing judgment then? What's the signifcance of it being momentary in ENTPs? and thru which function?

    @Samvega What was your aim when you said "Me - I figured you were an INFJ, interesting to find an INFJ with blank (blank used in place of a more personal detail that isn't germane to this context)."?

    What were you hoping for when you notified the other person about their X trait being interesting (doesn't fit?) in an INFJ...?

    If you weren't hoping for anything, why did you mention it at all?

    I think the problem here is more about one person taking offense at what the other says... hence the feeling judged thing... ENTP has a Ti-reservoir (and it is not momentry, it's their personal database)... it contains collected judgments in it... They are expressed thru Ne.. whereas an INFJ expresses them thru Fe... One is just more straightforward...

    This is how I think about it... I want to learn more and revise though... non-sarcastic approach is more welcome...

  9. #399
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    @Werebudgie I will put more thought into your experience with this. There's a speaker and a receiver and clearly the issue stems from an inefficiency in conveying the information from one to the other. I tend to feel it's the job of the person getting the information to ask for clarification as the other option would result in needless over-clarification more often than not. There are many quotes that come to mind on this such as:

    "One of the worst mistakes we can make when it comes to human relationships is attaching our motives to others actions." - Me

    “If you are irritated by every rub, how will your mirror be polished?” - Rumi (wannabe namaste yogis have made me despise quoting him but it fits)


    I think a good way of addressing this when you identify the issue is to respond to things with something like "so what I'm hearing you say is" which will allow the people to pinpoint misunderstandings and better learn their partner as well as how differently things can be expressed. My experience on this is that it's a T/F issue with the F changing the meaning or words of how something made them feel to what was actually said. I have noticed it time and time again where I say something and my wording is changed to and quoted as what they felt not what I said. I had a close INFJ friend once tell me 50% of what my Ni tells me is total trash which is why I needed to develop my Ti, to help me better sort out what to keep and what to toss out. Underdeveloped INFJs feel to just roll with whatever their Ni/Fe spits out in the same way ENTPs do with their Ne/Ti.

    As for your relationship dynamic, that may be different, I think there's an INFJ/INTJ lesbian couple on here someplace as well. I would guess it would be a better fit with you both being women though honestly maybe it's pretty much the same as being with an INFP man (: After all, in response to an INFx inquiring about dating another INFx on here (they were a male/female couple) I gave some insight, paused and said "so basically just treat is like a lesbian relationship" or something along those lines.

    You sound like you're on the right path with each other so keep up the exploring, it's awesome to see you two putting effort into understanding each other. I'm sure the gender does help honestly as I think more about it, I just got off the phone with an INFJ male whom I get along with very well, if I were to date men I think I would choose an INFJ male above any other type while I fail to even view INFJ females as a possibility anymore.

  10. #400
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What you're noting is primarily a general difference between Te and Fe. Te types tend to be literal across the board. Te doms are painfully literal at times. But even Te inferior tends to both use and take language at face value.

    eta: wrt to Samvega's example, Ne dom in combination with Fe tert will make him more aware of the ways the word could be socially construed. Noting the direction of how it's construed will form part of the accretion of Si data on "how people react". A potentially literal meaning upon utterance is therefore helpful in this context. In his example, I would have sensed the Ne poised to go in different directions depending on what I said next. Which is why the best answer is, "What do you mean by interesting?'
    @prplchknz, I think you cannot recognize the Fi\Fe-layer of interaction... You are full T (i.e. literal) when you say and read\hear things... F layer carries the subtext\emotional content of interaction, you cannot read\hear and speak the F layer...you are F-illiterate... unaware of your feelings and how your words come across... You need a T model of how F works... some kind of flowchart...

    @PeaceBaby, about the last part, you would if there were any past rapport with the ENTP...
    Last edited by yeghor; 03-18-2014 at 02:56 AM. Reason: Blue added

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