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  1. #331
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Here may lay a fundamental problem: I think that filtering information does destroy the information. My greatest goal is to understand all viewports to an arguement, if I was to filter stuff, following my own whim, it's like falsifieing documents.
    Hmmm. I have to agree with this, but I may not represent all Ni-doms. My internal world consists of every conceivable viewpoint I can hold in my mind and a continual revision process. Every person is an ever flowing river, a dynamic system, every issue has many viewpoints. My lack of filtering is a huge source of the underlying stress of my personality. I feel that Ni is like an endless pile of every perceived notion that continually tries to organize and reorganize everything without throwing anything away. Even false information has meaning because there is a reason someone perceived it. For me the process does continually try to distill the whole down to core concepts to aid in organizing, but everything is in a continual process of reorganizing.

    I can get overwhelmed by too much information, but I don't want others to distill it. When I hear one-sided information (especially if it is manipulatively derived) I get a really high level of stress because I know I will internalize it as well. What happens when I am flooded with facts and perspectives is just that I need a lot of quiet time to process it. It is difficult to leave it all in the external world, and so I have to figure out where to put it all in my head.

    As part of distilling data down to core concepts, I organize information along continuums along which information can continually shift. If you can picture many intersecting poles of concepts with each idea as a point along them ever sliding and reconfiguring. This is how my mind is organized.

    As a side-note which is relevant to the Ne-Ti thought process, I live with a Ti-dom and finally was able to conceptualize his thought organization. His is like an interconnected, multidimensional web of ideas, each point of which is more fixed, but the interrelationships and configuration of the webs are ever shifting. He creates these kinds of structures as his work, and so his mind could be compared to semantic space in which each term is defined, but the interrelationships between terms reconfigure.
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  2. #332
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Hmmm. I have to agree with this, but I may not represent all Ni-doms. My internal world consists of every conceivable viewpoint I can hold in my mind and a continual revision process. Every person is an ever flowing river, a dynamic system, every issue has many viewpoints. My lack of filtering is a huge source of the underlying stress of my personality. I feel that Ni is like an endless pile of every perceived notion that continually tries to organize and reorganize everything without throwing anything away. Even false information has meaning because there is a reason someone perceived it. For me the process does continually try to distill the whole down to core concepts to aid in organizing, but everything is in a continual process of reorganizing.

    I can get overwhelmed by too much information, but I don't want others to distill it. When I hear one-sided information (especially if it is manipulatively derived) I get a really high level of stress because I know I will internalize it as well. What happens when I am flooded with facts and perspectives is just that I need a lot of quiet time to process it. It is difficult to leave it all in the external world, and so I have to figure out where to put it all in my head.

    As part of distilling data down to core concepts, I organize information along continuums along which information can continually shift. If you can picture many intersecting poles of concepts with each idea as a point along them ever sliding and reconfiguring. This is how my mind is organized.

    As a side-note which is relevant to the Ne-Ti thought process, I live with a Ti-dom and finally was able to conceptualize his thought organization. His is like an interconnected, multidimensional web of ideas, each point of which is more fixed, but the interrelationships and configuration of the webs are ever shifting. He creates these kinds of structures as his work, and so his mind could be compared to semantic space in which each term is defined, but the interrelationships between terms reconfigure.
    This's a thing my gf suffers from or is blessed with aswell: she has a total hard time to filter information and has to take even those stuff in which does hurt her. She then often takes days to process stuff and then comes up with it, a two weeks old topic, and I am all like: huh ?

    The thing is bottom line at least for me: I am an ignorant. My intrest in people is really low and I am only intrested in the things that intrest me in general. I am able to juggle a dozens opinions and switch sides but on the inside I maintain a state of emptiness. To a feeler this would prolly be hell but for me, when my internal firewall is working, I am empty on the inside and I find that cushy and relaxing.
    This changes when something emotionally bothers me that can not be solved to easily, then I understand exactly what it means to struggle with decisions.

    The problem tho is, its like with Faust, there are two souls in your breast. Intuition is a powerful tool, it in every situation gives you the hunch for the right thing or the subjective right direction spawning from your current experience in life. You basically do not have to think on your own no more. So what they say about entps that they can "switch sides in a discussion for the sake of an arguement" normally happens intuitively. I could go own debating about a thing and not feel a thing (sadly that doesnt work too great for me cause I am too sensitive and get hurt quite fast). Theoretically tho this all could happen and in the whole time there could remain a complete feeling of nothingness on the inside.

    I think this could be an important integral part if you want to understand dom-N types, cause under the skin I am as stubborn as an intp with some benevolence of an esfj. 90% of the time tho I do everything out of Ne and the real me actually only those people now that hang around with me for some time. I feel this to be a vulnerable thing. I often too easy criticize people for making the wrong decisions, tho I really havent made a lot of decisions myself in life yet. Nor thought about stuff.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #333
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Hmmm. I have to agree with this, but I may not represent all Ni-doms. My internal world consists of every conceivable viewpoint I can hold in my mind and a continual revision process. Every person is an ever flowing river, a dynamic system, every issue has many viewpoints. My lack of filtering is a huge source of the underlying stress of my personality. I feel that Ni is like an endless pile of every perceived notion that continually tries to organize and reorganize everything without throwing anything away. Even false information has meaning because there is a reason someone perceived it. For me the process does continually try to distill the whole down to core concepts to aid in organizing, but everything is in a continual process of reorganizing.

    I can get overwhelmed by too much information, but I don't want others to distill it. When I hear one-sided information (especially if it is manipulatively derived) I get a really high level of stress because I know I will internalize it as well. What happens when I am flooded with facts and perspectives is just that I need a lot of quiet time to process it. It is difficult to leave it all in the external world, and so I have to figure out where to put it all in my head.
    This is why I typically find it ignorant when profiles that describe what are supposed to be Ni-dominants explains them as if they form one viewpoint and believe it is true. Although an Ni dominant who does such a thing is going to be assertive that they know more because they know how other people are limited in what they know, it doesn't mean they necessarily think they have all the information or understand everything that is going on; rather, they want everyone to know what they know so someone can truly challenge them and they can learn. If other people haven't put as much thought into the matter or are unaware of certain things, it's hard to get constructive criticism without first getting them to know what they don't, which can make people annoyed or feel they are being attacked or told what is the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    This's a thing my gf suffers from or is blessed with aswell: she has a total hard time to filter information and has to take even those stuff in which does hurt her. She then often takes days to process stuff and then comes up with it, a two weeks old topic, and I am all like: huh ?

    The thing is bottom line at least for me: I am an ignorant. My intrest in people is really low and I am only intrested in the things that intrest me in general. I am able to juggle a dozens opinions and switch sides but on the inside I maintain a state of emptiness. To a feeler this would prolly be hell but for me, when my internal firewall is working, I am empty on the inside and I find that cushy and relaxing.
    This changes when something emotionally bothers me that can not be solved to easily, then I understand exactly what it means to struggle with decisions.

    The problem tho is, its like with Faust, there are two souls in your breast. Intuition is a powerful tool, it in every situation gives you the hunch for the right thing or the subjective right direction spawning from your current experience in life. You basically do not have to think on your own no more. So what they say about entps that they can "switch sides in a discussion for the sake of an arguement" normally happens intuitively. I could go own debating about a thing and not feel a thing (sadly that doesnt work too great for me cause I am too sensitive and get hurt quite fast). Theoretically tho this all could happen and in the whole time there could remain a complete feeling of nothingness on the inside.

    I think this could be an important integral part if you want to understand dom-N types, cause under the skin I am as stubborn as an intp with some benevolence of an esfj. 90% of the time tho I do everything out of Ne and the real me actually only those people now that hang around with me for some time. I feel this to be a vulnerable thing. I often too easy criticize people for making the wrong decisions, tho I really havent made a lot of decisions myself in life yet. Nor thought about stuff.
    There was an episode on Law and Order. I think it was called Chosen. Peter Jacobson plays a defense attorney for a Jewish man who was accused of murdering someone. Turns out the accused did it in order to cover up the fact that he was stealing money from a business to send to Israel to help the Jewish people against the violence of the Arabs.

    The Prosecutor found it appalling when Peter Jacobson attempted to sway the Jewish jury into giving a not guilty verdict by appealing to their Jewish background. For the Prosecutor, there was a sense of misdeed or wrong in the accused committing murder no matter the reason; for the prosecutor this was implicitly a bad thing that should be punished. But on the part of the defense attorney (Peter Jacobson), he saw the act of wanting to help the people in Israel as not necessarily a bad thing, even if it meant murdering someone to do it. He saw the reason and played with it as best he could extemporaneously as extroverted intuition does, milking it for what it was worth. At the end of the episode, he lost the case anyway and complimented the Prosecutor for convincing the jury why that such a reason isn't enough to excuse someone for murder; the Prosecutor was surprised that Peter Jacobson didn't really care that he lost. He just saw different viewpoints and wanted to argue a defense, whereas the Prosecutor saw a moral problem.
    In other words, it's like you say that he was interested in seeing different viewpoints and not having an emotional connection about it (in this case, there was no moral dilemma about the murder, even though everyone knew the man committed murder and Jacobson didn't even try to deny it); and for him, when dealing with a situation of morals, he plays the role of a Sophist in denying any universal validity of the notion, as well as arguing for a position that suits him or his goals. Naturally, ENTP lawyers represent the kind of Sophist tradition that makes people hate lawyers, but it is what it is.

    Anyway, I imagine if you watch that episode, you would identify with Peter Jacobson's character as ENTP. And I just wanted to mention it because what you said reminds me of it and it shows Ne+Ti in action without such a person having to be a scientist or an inventor necessarily, which is kind of a silly generalization, like much of MBTI.

  4. #334
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Entropie, there’s something so endearing about you.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Here may lay a fundamental problem: I think that filtering information does destroy the information. My greatest goal is to understand all viewports to an arguement, if I was to filter stuff, following my own whim, it's like falsifieing documents.
    I think we might be referring to the term ‘filter’ in a slightly different way here. To filter in a way that ‘follows a whim’- which to me seems to suggest it isn’t mindful shaving off of excess argumentation, but rather picking and choosing which details to reveal and which ones to omit- then yes, I agree it’s like falsifying documents, it’s manipulating the details in a self-serving way. What I’m referring to is more of a “Okay, how is this going to sound? Are there flaws in what I’m presenting?” approach, which comes from a place of respecting the other person’s viewpoint- not trying to create a snowjob to falsify something, but rather it’s about catching oneself in the act before unleashing that inadvertent snowjob/falsified argument on others.

    There are some Pe’ers (even in this forum) who say things that are so mind-numbingly short sighted it’s hard to believe they’re not embarrassed to even be trying to argue it. [eta: but then, this is the point where I try to remind myself that Pe'ers work stuff out aloud and they're not trying to pass something off as 'finished product' as much as I'm inclined to think- that much admittedly takes effort on my part to remember. But still, some Pe'ers *do* go too far and are trying to pass it off as 'finished product'.] In the way that it’s stunning to Introverted Judgers- to deal with an overzealous Je’er who tries to enforce his/her (clearly flawed) views through sheer force of will (instead of realizing that ideas ‘win’ through their own merit, not because someone calls another person ‘idiot’ forcefully enough) and seems completely oblivious to Ji logic- Pe’ers can sometimes insist on some argument equally as short sighted. Sure, there’s usually some ‘logic’ in it that stacks up in some convoluted Escher way- but the person seems oblivious to how they are twisting immediate facts to some self-serving end. In the way that Ji’ers immediately pick up on details that Je’ers can miss- things which seem obvious, and it can be too distracting to ignore or move past until it’s ironed out- the same thing happens to Introverted Perceivers with overzealous Pe.

    [So yeah, I’d agree, ‘filter’ in way you describe it is actually the LAST thing a Pe’er should do because it’s precisely the kind of thing that throws obstacles in Ni's path.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #335
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I dont trust easily. I have my reasons, vulnerability makes breach of trust more hurtful. That is all i meant, no specific example or message was on my mind, just. Participating.

    I think im horrified by pure pragmatism in relationship decision because well. There is so little in me that is able to care, sometimes, and the price of control and stability would be too high. I do not want to make the choices that would, just make me hardened to the point of considering that good enough is enough, it would be a betrayal of everything that I am, selling out, in a way. It would feel like quite a dry life to have.

    I take risks, i go for high reward high risk (as long as i understand the risk, i dont gamble, i invest) and consider a myriad factors (not saying I'm the only one)
    As for stress, i think the perspective @cafe gave was that of the stressed. If you dont get bogged down into mud while walking under the rain then you re simply not slowed down, it doesnt mean you re running or running away from something. Throughout my life i saw people make decisions based on things i simply did not feel and which did not come into my decision making process. (Such as strong attachment to places, family, predictability over growth and the unknown)

    You can call it repression, i can only speak of what i experience.

    Its all about what we seek and risk perception. I know what i want from life, and stability isn't something i need for myself. Homeostasis is just not good enough.
    If you don't get stressed when you can't provide adequately for your children or go to the doctor when you need to . . .

    But, yes, I personally need stability and security. In part, I need them because I'm a mother. But I also need them for me. My mother is an ESFP so it's not like I don't know what it's like to live without those things. I can adjust to almost any circumstances. I am very adaptable and resourceful. But it does stress me out and take energy I'd rather spend on something else.

    My INTP has Ne, which makes him fun to throw ideas around with, but he usually is fine just thinking and talking about them. Sometimes that's a disadvantage, but most of the time, it works out better for me. He isn't disrupting my life with that stuff all the time.

    As I said, I love my husband very much. When I considered leaving it wasn't because I wasn't in love with him or didn't like him. But love is only one factor in a LTR, especially when children are involved. I'd consider it the most important one, but you can't eat love.

    Entering any romantic relationship is gambling, IMO. It was a gamble when I married my husband and I knew it. I did not want to let my feelings, strong though they were, override my reason. I wanted my marriage to last but we have a high divorce rate in this country and I figured there must be a reason for that. It must, in some way, be difficult. I did my research, to the best of my ability at that time, but I'm a frigging NF, so I didn't really even think about money. Wouldn't have believed anyone if they'd told me at that age that it was important.

    I love being able to stay in one place. I love knowing, generally, what my day is going to be like. I love being able to predict what my husband is going to do, if not say. It does not feel confining to me, it feels like nurturing sunshine. Knowing where my next meal is coming from makes me feel comforted and safe. Not having my roots ripped out of the ground without warning makes me feel happy and it makes me feel not stressed.

    I know not everyone feels that way. My much-adored grandfather simply could not live in such an environment, even when he was an old man. But it is what I need in order to thrive. In my case, it's not a defect, it's a feature. Having someone believe it is a defect would make us incompatible on a basic level.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #336
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    @cafe quick answer. Gottag get back to work. In my case money is not really an issue. I do not see a situation where i would be struggling to get a sufficient income and what i consider a low income is already more than most people get in their 30ies (i am 26).
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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  7. #337
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    If it's rude not to tag and respond to specific people/posts, please issue a pardon this time around.

    Any human functioning with fear/anxiety as their motivating force will seek security. Can we acknowledge it's not a phenomena associated to one type? Can we recognize it as a human condition thing?

    As stated on here in many instances, ENTPs and INFJs are both runners in their own rights. Similarly with the comments, I agree, the only difference is if they are running to a "new world" or hiding in a cave.

    ENTPs and INFJs who are secure within themselves, have processed and resolved past crisis (the process INFJs are all too desperate for ahead of their emotional/cognitive maturation and ENTPs are all too desperate to avoid thus staging off their emotional/cognitive maturation), and are motivated by something greater (truth, a cause, life purpose, self-actualization) are the most fit to appreciate the power & intensity of this dynamic.

    It requires the ENTP to prize harmony over dominance and the INFJ to prize honesty over harmony. At this level, it is a healing dynamic for both partners. But it's certainly not for the faint of heart. It's what is required to develop your tertiary and inferior functions if you think the MBTI/interpretations of Jung can explain it all.

  8. #338
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    @cafe quick answer. Gottag get back to work. In my case money is not really an issue. I do not see a situation where i would be struggling to get a sufficient income and what i consider a low income is already more than most people get in their 30ies (i am 26).
    That would make you from a different social class than I am from. I'm not sure how much that effects this stuff, but it has to effect it some, I'd think. But I did address this in the post where I re-entered this thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I can't imagine having a successful long term relationship with an ENTP myself. I think I could have an amazing friendship with one, but I'm too introverted and have too strong a need for security and predictability to have an E_ _ P partner. The only way I could see it working is if we had money out the rear and didn't have kids. That might be enough to balance things out.
    I don't mind the occasional adventure, but I like to be able to come back to my quiet, predictable life. Just call me Bilbo Baggins.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #339
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    @cafe
    That would make you from a different social class than I am from. I'm not sure how much that effects this stuff, but it has to effect it some, I'd think. But I did address this in the post where I re-entered this thread:
    I'm just special. Also being a risk taker doesn't mean im not a successful risk taker. All that ne ti has to have some purpose after all. In my case risk is balanced by my SP and there's a forward push through extrovertion and 7w8 if you believe in these things (well, they correspond to a set of answers on preferences and behavior so its relevant whether the system is 'good enough' or not).
    Balancing the SP and the 7w8 and feeding my need of inspiration took a while, but I find it's an interesting mix.

    The result? I don't make impulsive decisions. I weight opportunity/cost through identifying niches where the environment's perceived risks differs enough from actual risk to extra value at a lowered real risk relative to return. After years of that process my risk perception tends to be quite different from that of most other people. So keep that in mind when I talk about risk taking.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

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    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  10. #340
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    @cafe

    I'm just special. Also being a risk taker doesn't mean im not a successful risk taker. All that ne ti has to have some purpose after all. Also my risk taking is balanced by my SP. i don't make impulsive decisions. My whole perception of risk also strives to be based on a large set of patterns and figure out perceived risk from real risk. After years of that process my risk perception tends to be quite different from that of most other people. I find the areas of bias/opportunity overlap to extract value.
    Go on with your bad self, then. My second breakfast awaits.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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