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Thread: The PoLR Thread

  1. #121
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    What kind of shadow? That sounds more MBTI to me. So I'd like more precise terminology here to be sure what you actually mean
    What sounds like MBTI?

    An ISTp is an SLI is an Si dom is a Te aux...

    The broadest definition of a shadow. There are many tools that one can use to bring light to a shadow. MBTI, Socionics, and Enneagram, are only 3 tools of the many that one can use to do so....
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    What sounds like MBTI?

    An ISTp is an SLI is an Si dom is a Te aux...

    The broadest definition of a shadow. There are many tools that one can use to bring light to a shadow. MBTI, Socionics, and Enneagram, are only 3 tools of the many that one can use to do so....
    The word usage "shadow" wasn't really socionics. JCF/MBTI has a term for it. But, OK, if you mean outright jungian stuff...

  3. #123
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    Yeah.. Se for me.

    INFj.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Bringing this thread back, but with new stuff.

    The Vulnerable Function creates feelings of suspicion, loathing, and annoyance when it receives information specific to it, but due to the fact that the Vulnerable Function is a Producing function, it is a way of looking at the world in a critical light.

    In essence, the Vulnerable Function is what you think is wrong with the world, or why the world is bad, and works in tandem with the Accepting Role Function, which is self-critical, as Accepting functions view the self in a specific light, which in the Super-Ego block, is what is wrong with you, specifically, and why you are bad.

    • ExTp's think the world is bad because people are too concerned with political correctness, politeness, and manners, that people are too sensitive and fragile, instead of being concerned with being insensitive and to-the-point. ( Creative > Vulnerable)
    • IxTp's think the world is bad because people are too concerned with connecting emotionally, fostering emotional atmospheres, and producing socially comfortable environments (+ getting people to open up), instead of being concerned with the logistics, the data, what needs to be done, and producing things.
    • ESxj's think the world is bad because people are too concerned with the future, ulterior meanings, and abstractions (especially idealism), and not concerned enough with what is here and now and the problems we face today.
    • ISxj's think the world is bad because people are too concerned with possibilities, complex metaphors, and all sides of an issue instead of being concerned with what needs to be done at this very instant, what is realistic, and following the best side of an issue (the one with the most immediate compelling information).
    • ExFp's think the world is bad because people are too concerned with theories disconnected from reality, overly complex mathematical concepts, and mechanical answers to things, instead of being concerned with visceral connections to the world, being kind and polite, and following what you personally believe to be right.
    • IxFp's think the world is bad because people are too concerned with gathering knowledge and evidence, being objective and impartial, and because people rely on others' knowledge or second-hand knowledge instead of their own, instead of being concerned with fostering a group atmosphere, sharing emotions, and relating things to personal experience.
    • ENxj's think the world is bad because people are too concerned with being physically and even mentally comfortable, organizing the environment according to what is comfortable instead of what might be useful, and keeping things how they've always been, instead of following present trends to where they lead, taking risks on things that are not 100% certain, and adjusting for the future.
    • INxj's think the world is bad because people are too concerned with material things, doing things in the immediate physical reality, and that people are too aggressive and demanding, instead of being concerned with what could be possible under certain circumstances, complex metaphors and analogies (and finding meaning), and looking at both sides of an issue (instead of the issue at face value).



    Furthermore, each type's PoLR is specifically geared towards a specific avenue (denoted by the Role Function), which means that a type like the ILI finds suspicion in, loathes, and/or is annoyed by Fe things oriented in an Si way (Too concerned with people's emotions and making people "comfortable"), and a type like the SEE finds suspicion in, loathes, and/or is annoyed by Ti things in an Ne way (Too concerned with complex metaphors, analogies, abstractions embedded in unrealistic theories that can't be applied practically or aren't grounded in reality).

    To specify even further, here are the suspicions.

    • ExTp's are suspicious of moral values (internally derived), passion, and scruples. ("There is no way they could honestly believe that/follow that")
    • IxTp's are suspicious of moral values (externally derived), making people "comfortable"/supporting people, and getting people to open up emotionally. ("There is no way this is just about "making people comfortable"/supporting people, there is something else going on")
    • ESxj's are suspicious of future predictions, idealism, and interpretations of things. ("It's all just wishful thinking, it doesn't reflect reality")
    • ISxj's are suspicious of ambiguity, metaphors/analogies, and what could hypothetically be (as, often, it is unfeasible). ("Why not just worry about what we could do now at this very instant?")
    • ExFp's are suspicious of theoretical models, unproven theories, and mathematical/logical information that doesn't have a physical manifestation. ("There is no way that can be true, that's just overly complex, ridiculous, and unrealistic.")
    • IxFp's are suspicious of second-hand knowledge, evidence, and objective data. ("Don't trust what you read, outside knowledge, or what the data points to, trust what you already know and what you think is going on/right")
    • ENxj's are suspicious of following the past, traditions (whether societal or individual), and taking it easy. ("Just because it has worked before doesn't mean it works good or can't work better.")
    • INxj's are suspicious of the immediate physical world and the face value of things. ("Nothing's this easy/simple, something else must be going on here.")



    Further information:
    Lead Function - Why you are good.
    Creative Function - Why the world is good.
    Role Function - Why you are flawed/bad.
    Vulnerable Function - Why the world is flawed/bad.
    Suggestive Function - What you need more of.
    Mobilizing Function -What the world needs more of.
    Ignoring Function - What you find boring. (Still under thought-construction)
    Demonstrative Function - What the world has enough of/What the world finds boring./Why the world is boring (Still under thought-construction)
    Last edited by Alea_iacta_est; 06-18-2014 at 11:31 AM.

  5. #125
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Interesting post. I see myself in the INxj one and to a lesser extent the IxTp.
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  6. #126
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    I don't think the world is bad.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #127
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Such Irony View Post
    Interesting post. I see myself in the INxj one and to a lesser extent the IxTp.
    Interesting, I see myself in the opposite way, Both IxTp and INxj, where INxj is the lesser one for me.

  8. #128
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Bringing this thread back, but with new stuff.

    The Vulnerable Function creates feelings of suspicion, loathing, and annoyance when it receives information specific to it, but due to the fact that the Vulnerable Function is a Producing function, it is a way of looking at the world in a critical light.

    In essence, the Vulnerable Function is what you think is wrong with the world, or why the world is bad, and works in tandem with the Accepting Role Function, which is self-critical, as Accepting functions view the self in a specific light, which in the Super-Ego block, is what is wrong with you, specifically, and why you are bad.

    IxFp's think the world is bad because people are too concerned with gathering knowledge and evidence, being objective and impartial, and because people rely on others' knowledge or second-hand knowledge instead of their own, instead of being concerned with fostering a group atmosphere, sharing emotions, and relating things to personal experience.
    IxFp one sounds like irritation with over-abundance of Te and lack of Fe. So in MBTI inferior function terms, IxFp corresponds to a Te-inferior type in MBTI. That would IxFps think that they are incompetent\flawed and inferior Te-wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    INxj's think the world is bad because people are too concerned with material things, doing things in the immediate physical reality, and that people are too aggressive and demanding, instead of being concerned with what could be possible under certain circumstances, complex metaphors and analogies (and finding meaning), and looking at both sides of an issue (instead of the issue at face value).
    INxj one sounds like irritation with over-abundance of Se and lack of Ne. So in MBTI inferior function terms, INxj corresponds to a Se-inferior type in MBTI. That would INxjs think that they are incompetent\flawed and inferior Se-wise.

    I am mentioning this to point out once more the possibility that INxj in socionics = INxJ in MBTI and IxFp in socionics = IxFP in MBTI, contrary to common knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Furthermore, each type's PoLR is specifically geared towards a specific avenue (denoted by the Role Function), which means that a type like the ILI finds suspicion in, loathes, and/or is annoyed by Fe things oriented in an Si way (Too concerned with people's emotions and making people "comfortable"), and a type like the SEE finds suspicion in, loathes, and/or is annoyed by Ti things in an Ne way (Too concerned with complex metaphors, analogies, abstractions embedded in unrealistic theories that can't be applied practically or aren't grounded in reality).
    So this would mean INFj would be irritated with Se information (selfishly?) being used for Ti (internal decision making) purposes or Se information being proposed by others to rule out INFj's Ti reasoning?

  9. #129
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    IxFp one sounds like irritation with over-abundance of Te and lack of Fe. So in MBTI inferior function terms, IxFp corresponds to a Te-inferior type in MBTI. That would IxFps think that they are incompetent\flawed and inferior Te-wise.



    INxj one sounds like irritation with over-abundance of Se and lack of Ne. So in MBTI inferior function terms, INxj corresponds to a Se-inferior type in MBTI. That would INxjs think that they are incompetent\flawed and inferior Se-wise.

    I am mentioning this to point out once more the possibility that INxj in socionics = INxJ in MBTI and IxFp in socionics = IxFP in MBTI, contrary to common knowledge.



    So this would mean INFj would be irritated with Se information (selfishly?) being used for Ti (internal decision making) purposes or Se information being proposed by others to rule out INFj's Ti reasoning?
    IxFp loathes and ignores all Te related data, is suspicious of it, and is generally oblivious to it. Does that sound like the inferior or anima/animus? (Because if you honestly say yes, I question your understanding even more)

    The one thing you have completely wrong is the idea that irritation is somehow linked to the presence of the inferior function, which is preposterous considering that the inferior function represents that which is unconsciously craved and desired.

    The INFj is irritated, suspicious of and loathes anyone who tries to organize pragmatic systems based on rationalization or a priori reasoning (without evidence, Se-Ti). This is NOT because it is the Jungian inferior, as it obviously is not, it is Beebe's Trickster Archetype, clearly, as it is both unwanted and seen as a force used to manipulate instead of to uplift (as seen with the inferior or anima/animus).

    The INFp wants someone who can motivate them to achieve their goals, plans, and ideas (Se inferior to aid Ni Dominant in its pursuits).
    The INFj wants someone who can help them create efficient external systems, reason pragmatically and realistically, and based their decisions on statistics and data (not on a priori or rationalization) (Te inferior to aid Fi Dominant in its pursuits).

    The only thing that the two functions share in common (the Suggestive/Inferior and Vulnerable/Shadow Tertiary) is that they are the two weakest functions (in relation to dimensionality of functions, where they are both 1-dimensional). One is loathed and seen as a flaw with humanity or the world (wanted to be eradicated and is mocked by the Demonstrative function, this is the Vulnerable Function), the other is loved and seen as something you specifically need more of to live happily (the Suggestive/Inferior).

    Lead Function -> Hero Archetype/Dominant Function
    Creative Function -> Parent Archetype/Auxiliary Function
    Role Function -> Daemon Archetype/Shadow Inferior Function
    Vulnerable Function -> Trickster Archetype/Shadow Tertiary Function
    Suggestive Function -> Anima/Animus Archetype/Inferior Function
    Mobilizing Function -> Child Archetype/Tertiary Function
    Ignoring Function -> Antihero Archetype/Shadow Dominant Function
    Demonstrative -> Critical Parent Archetype/Shadow Auxiliary Function

  10. #130
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Perhaps it will place it in context for @yeghor when he reads this.

    Socionics Model A



    edit:
    One has to keep in mind that the MBTI's 3rd function maps to the 6th and the 4th (MBTI) function maps to the 5th function in socionics. So the 4th function seen in socionics is not the 4th in MBTI.

    MBTI strong/weak/strong/weak. Socionics strong/weak/weak/strong.

    Socionics, 2 rings of functions, conscience (strong/weak), unconscience (weak/strong).
    Expanding on this:
    Ring 1 (conscience) (2 strong functions, 2 weak functions), Ring 2 (unconscience) (2 weak functions, 2 strong functions)


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