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  1. #71
    Senior Member Emotionalogic's Avatar
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    Yes, Elsa is INFJ. INFJs always have a kernel of power-hunger beneath all the fe propriety, pointed self sacrifice, and pseudo-aristocratic, too-good-for-this-world retirement.

  2. #72
    Senior Member HBIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    I still think Elsa is INTJ. I don't see Fe from her. Also Anna is ESFP so this makes the whole Fire/Ice duality work well
    No leading Ni, so no INTJ. But it would have been very interesting to see an INTJ Disney Queen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emotionalogic View Post
    Yes, Elsa is INFJ. INFJs always have a kernel of power-hunger beneath all the fe propriety, pointed self sacrifice, and pseudo-aristocratic, too-good-for-this-world retirement.
    Because a type can be contained in a highly stereotypied and negative sentence like this .

  3. #73
    Senior Member Emotionalogic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Look Alive_Sunshine View Post

    Because a type can be contained in a highly stereotypied and negative sentence like this .
    I don't see the sentence as either stereotyped (is it a stereotype that INFJs secretly want power?) or negative (is it a bad thing to be ambitious?). The point is that XXFJs often like to see themselves and their fe as gentle, tolerant, and cooperative, but that describes their methods, not their goals. Fe is still a judging function, so XXFJs still have an idea of how things should be (especially NFJs, since ni lends itself well to strong opinions and ideas), which they want to see actualized in the world. They might prefer to do so through pro-social means, but the desire is still there. It's often repressed along with inferior se though, leading to a withdrawal from the world and the sublimation of what are seen as "base" desires to have a strong effect on it. This effect is compounded when theses desires are socially unacceptable, which triggers the XNFJ's fe and encourages them to internalize these negative judgments (which is particularly easy for introverted INFJs, of course) and direct their considerable will against themselves, where it manifests as strong and ruthless self-control. Hence, the INFJ's withdrawal from the world can be seen as a kind of self-sacrifice, with the INFJ suppressing their agency to protect social harmony, and taking up the role of observer, rather than participant. But this role is actually very unnatural to the INFJ, being a judger and a se-user. It is the INFP who truly wishes to withdraw from the world, not the INFJ. Eventually, the INFJ's inferior se will inevitably come into play, and the INFJ will release all their pent-up judgmental energy on the external world in the blunt, direct, almost involuntary manner which characterizes both se and inferior functions. Since acceptance and integration of the inferior function is a healthy development in Jungian psychology, this release can be seen as the INFJ reaching their full potential.

  4. #74
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    I thought it was pretty obvious that Elsa was INFJ, especially seeing the transformation halfway through with the Se-burst of crazy that came out.

    Anna sort of rode the line between ESFP and ENFP for me with a slight lean on the ENFP side because her personality was a lot softer than ESFPs can come across as. (At least the ones I know IRL who are very much grounded in reality and telling the world how it IS, etc.)

    The differences/conflict between the two when they interacted came across as the white noise static often seen between Fi and Fe types.

    (There... is nothing INTJ about Elsa... like, at all.)

  5. #75
    Senior Member Pinker85's Avatar
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    I didn't read all the way through. So Elsa can't be an ISFJ because she's just too awesome of a person? All the ISFJs I've known are plenty good at confronting difficult situations and don't respond by breaking down as you suggest. And don't ALL people want to find their place?
    "My comrades and my beloved, upon your way you shall meet men with hoofs; give them your wings. And men with horns; give them wreaths of laurel. And men with claws; give them petals for fingers. And men with forked tongues; give them honey words." --Kahlil Gibran, The Garden of The Prophet

  6. #76
    Senior Member Pinker85's Avatar
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    And wouldn't going on a long kick about letting go of the past and your occupation with being dutiful imply you think a lot about those things? I'm not saying this is the case, but could it be that Elsa just hits a point of frustration with feeling unable to uphold tradition that she feels forced to be rebellious?
    "My comrades and my beloved, upon your way you shall meet men with hoofs; give them your wings. And men with horns; give them wreaths of laurel. And men with claws; give them petals for fingers. And men with forked tongues; give them honey words." --Kahlil Gibran, The Garden of The Prophet

  7. #77
    Senior Member HBIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emotionalogic View Post
    I don't see the sentence as either stereotyped (is it a stereotype that INFJs secretly want power?) or negative (is it a bad thing to be ambitious?). The point is that XXFJs often like to see themselves and their fe as gentle, tolerant, and cooperative, but that describes their methods, not their goals. Fe is still a judging function, so XXFJs still have an idea of how things should be (especially NFJs, since ni lends itself well to strong opinions and ideas), which they want to see actualized in the world. They might prefer to do so through pro-social means, but the desire is still there. It's often repressed along with inferior se though, leading to a withdrawal from the world and the sublimation of what are seen as "base" desires to have a strong effect on it. This effect is compounded when theses desires are socially unacceptable, which triggers the XNFJ's fe and encourages them to internalize these negative judgments (which is particularly easy for introverted INFJs, of course) and direct their considerable will against themselves, where it manifests as strong and ruthless self-control. Hence, the INFJ's withdrawal from the world can be seen as a kind of self-sacrifice, with the INFJ suppressing their agency to protect social harmony, and taking up the role of observer, rather than participant. But this role is actually very unnatural to the INFJ, being a judger and a se-user. It is the INFP who truly wishes to withdraw from the world, not the INFJ. Eventually, the INFJ's inferior se will inevitably come into play, and the INFJ will release all their pent-up judgmental energy on the external world in the blunt, direct, almost involuntary manner which characterizes both se and inferior functions. Since acceptance and integration of the inferior function is a healthy development in Jungian psychology, this release can be seen as the INFJ reaching their full potential.
    Of course wanting power and being ambitions (both characteristics overlap a lot) isn't a bad thing, neither did I imply it.

    But "Kernel of power hunger", "pseudo-aristocratic" and "too-good-for-this-world retirement" aren't neutral choice of words at all.

    I agree with your assessments about both types, I think people mistake a lot of natural INFP's traits for INFJ ones.

    I do not see what you described in Elsa because her withdrawal from the world isn't voluntary at all. She has a choice made for her at the beginning and when she goes away later on, the sentiments expressed in "Let It go" lyrics are not indicative of Se, but of Fi. She finally expresses what she thinks of her powers and how she feels about having to suppress them.

  8. #78
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    As I've mentioned, with the crises Elsa was facing (and this being a cartoon movie), it was not particularly clear-cut what her natural personality was - albeit, an 'explosion' was nearly inevitable in the psychological sense. I will say that... INFJ's can be very (subtly) in-charge and responsible as kids, bossy even... as their Fe would begin to develop, but not quite - they may trust their own ideas when finding that they could be more correct than their parents at times.

    Nonetheless, one should not look at a single event and discount the circumstances. Her Fe was expressed as she was forced to grow up; she was aided in the choice to protect her sister and those around her... but Fe cannot thrive without emotional regulation and understanding - in which her dilemma didn't allow for. Suppressing emotions meant that she had to learn how to use Fe without her actual emotions to guide her - her outside assessments were limited and her internal assessments were incomplete. There being "beauty in [her] magic but also great danger" was also indicative of Ni-Se, symbolically (making such a creative ice castle when she'd never attempted that before was risk-taking and dangerous - if something went wrong, her safety would be compromised - but she'd trusted her Ni and Se at that very 'explosive' moment without equivocation); magic was a part of her, just like our abilities would influence our personalities. Everything counts to varying degrees; even her running away illustrated that she was trying to contently accept a lifestyle that she would not choose on her own in trying to protect those she loved.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Emotionalogic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Look Alive_Sunshine View Post

    I do not see what you described in Elsa because her withdrawal from the world isn't voluntary at all. She has a choice made for her at the beginning and when she goes away later on, the sentiments expressed in "Let It go" lyrics are not indicative of Se, but of Fi. She finally expresses what she thinks of her powers and how she feels about having to suppress them.
    Elsa makes the choice to leave in the face of social disapproval. Nobody forces her to do it. A te user would have pointed out that the disapproval of her subjects didn't really matter on account of her being queen and them not, and proceeded to rule well enough that they'd forget about it. A ti user would have argued that the ice powers would not hinder her ability to rule, and might actually help, if she used them to defend the kingdom. A fi user might have left, but would never have become ashamed of the powers before hand (self acceptance even if they're different is kind of their thing, you know?). So we see that, in her internalizing other people's negative emotional judgments, and making choices that show an inability to cope with social disapproval, Elsa displays fe. As for the idea that she's fi because she "expresses what she thinks of her powers and how she feels about having to suppress them": fe users have feelings too, and are more want to express them than fi users. A fi user would have expressed them much earlier, but Elsa waits for external emotional stimulus I.E. the reveal and the disapproval that followed. She feels her emotions in tandem with others, not by herself (contrast that with Anna, who gets her big "this is how I feel" songs in the first few minutes of the movie, with no-one else providing emotional stimulus. It's all in her head.)

  10. #80
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emotionalogic View Post
    Elsa makes the choice to leave in the face of social disapproval. Nobody forces her to do it. A te user would have pointed out that the disapproval of her subjects didn't really matter on account of her being queen and them not, and proceeded to rule well enough that they'd forget about it. A ti user would have argued that the ice powers would not hinder her ability to rule, and might actually help, if she used them to defend the kingdom. A fi user might have left, but would never have become ashamed of the powers before hand (self acceptance even if they're different is kind of their thing, you know?). So we see that, in her internalizing other people's negative emotional judgments, and making choices that show an inability to cope with social disapproval, Elsa displays fe. As for the idea that she's fi because she "expresses what she thinks of her powers and how she feels about having to suppress them": fe users have feelings too, and are more want to express them than fi users. A fi user would have expressed them much earlier, but Elsa waits for external emotional stimulus I.E. the reveal and the disapproval that followed. She feels her emotions in tandem with others, not by herself (contrast that with Anna, who gets her big "this is how I feel" songs in the first few minutes of the movie, with no-one else providing emotional stimulus. It's all in her head.)
    I'd agree with this.

    Additionally - with most things - people would tend to see characteristics in which they would understand most and embody themselves. Many Fi-users may see Elsa's critical moment as something she was solely doing for herself - whereas I (and Fe-users) may see it as Elsa trying to make the best of a difficult situation, with the primary goal of making sure that others were safe. Elsa to Anna in the ice castle (Fe): "I'm just trying to protect you." Elsa sang, "The past is in the past!" as she threw her crown (Se)... even though Ni would continue to synthesize past events.

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