Sherlock Holmes (movie with Robert Downey Jr.)

[tinkerbell]

He says something like, "There is absolutely nothing of interest out there for me at all." Clearly introverted.

Nothing to do with E/I type and very much NT type... I am often in that mind set myself. I have no idea how you translate that into Introversion at all.

 

[incubustribute]

He says something like, "There is absolutely nothing of interest out there for me at all." Clearly introverted.

Nothing to do with E/I type and very much NT type... I am often in that mind set myself. I have no idea how you translate that into Introversion at all.

Perhaps I should have been more specific. The idea of not needing anything in the outside world is highly indicative of a Ji function (introverted judging). In this case it is Ti we're looking at. Ti needs no external validation for its value system - it is only concerned with the self, as all introverted functions are. It needs an extroverted perceptive faculty to validate the judgments. This could be either Ne or Se. When Sherlock claims he has no interest in the outside world at that moment he is showcasing his Ti - all he wants is a case to solve, a puzzle to complete. When I say he is introverted I only mean that insofar as his main cognitive role is clearly introverted thinking (Ti). He may seem extroverted if you watch the movie at surface value, because you're listening to him talking, watching him in action, and physically seeing his role. You cannot directly observe an introverted role in action, you need to look at the motivations (what he's most concerned with in general) throughout the movie. ENTP would require that he has inferior sensing abilities, which is very obviously not true. I'll give you that he seems extroverted throughout a good bit of the film, but you have to look into his cognitive processes to get a more complete view of what's going on.

Also I spied another Holmes thread in the popular culture section, is there any way we can merge the two? I searched for one like I always do before I made it, so I think mine was up first, although the other one appears chronologically before mine.

 

[Killjoy]

Well, ENTP is something I considered as well, but I think some of you are making the mistake of assuming an outgoing, clever, and funny personality means extroversion. Pay close attention to his motives throughout the movie. Everything he exists for is solving the mystery...unlocking the clues and processing and exploring the data to construct a logical framework. His entire motivations in the movie are based on Ti. Remember the scene near the beginning where he's been sitting in that dark room for two weeks going crazy because he doesn't have a case to solve. He says something like, "There is absolutely nothing of interest out there for me at all." Clearly introverted. An ENTP would be much more concerned with simply endlessly exploring ideas to ever be as good as Sherlock at dissecting the data and doing something with it. Ne serves Ti's ends in this movie, not the other way around. As for ISTP, this is the most likely alternative, but I believe his sensing function is introverted. When he looks at a crime scene he never writes anything down, he internalizes it and recalls it later for Ne's end of exploration. Ne's exploration then serves Ti's end for solving the puzzle and you have a brilliant detective. As for secondary Se...consider that when he perceives something outwardly (Pe) he is quickly running through endless possibilities in his mind (he even vocalizes these sometimes when he "explains" his methods). It's all about exploration, experimentation, and then this gets processed and structured by Ti. The process by which he evaluates external data is a clear Ne/Si combination. Lastly, if you pay attention, inferior Fe is very evident throughout the film, which would seem to disqualify ENTP.

Agreed.

In this latest movie, he seemed more INTP than ENTP to me.

An (over)confident INTP.

 

[Venom]

this is reaching levels of insanity:

everyone think back to every INTP you've ever known, and all of your math professors doh. you REALLY think *those people* are going to be running around leaping from buildings, fighting people like its no big deal, calmly thinking on their feet as they get the person away from the band saw, suavely dressing and entertaining the prison mob like a stand up commedian?

You REALLY think that a "Behind The Scenes" INTP is more likely to do all of that than a "Get Things Going" ENTP?????

 

[incubustribute]

this is reaching levels of insanity:

everyone think back to every INTP you've ever known, and all of your math professors doh. you REALLY think *those people* are going to be running around leaping from buildings, fighting people like its no big deal, calmly thinking on their feet as they get the person away from the band saw, suavely dressing and entertaining the prison mob like a stand up commedian?

You REALLY think that a "Behind The Scenes" INTP is more likely to do all of that than a "Get Things Going" ENTP?????

...

care to offer more broad generalizations and stereotypes? I've tried to show with functional analysis why INTP makes sense, but perhaps you'd like to make some specific observations from the movie. I'd be willing to listen to anything that shows why INTP's functions don't work, but I don't think you'll find much.

 

[tinkerbell]

I personally think functional analysis is an overlay on MBTI that doens't work/is really badly used...... but I know that this is a an unpopulare opinion around here....

BC has a a really strong point, Inroverts dont' behave like that

 

[incubustribute]

I personally think functional analysis is an overlay on MBTI that doens't work/is really badly used...... but I know that this is a an unpopulare opinion around here....

BC has a a really strong point, Inroverts dont' behave like that

Functional analysis is the capstone of MBTI. Without Jung's functions you have overly generalized categorizations that lump people into vague 4 letter categories. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. Introverts will behave this way if it suits their needs. Regardless of how you define cognitive processes, you have to agree that everyone uses multiple faculties of some sort to deal with internal processes and external judgments. If you accept that, I don't see what's so hard to understand about my assertion that extroverted processes are much more easily identifiable in a movie. To get the introverted ones, you have to have inner dialogue, sort of like J.D. in Scrubs. You actually get that during the fight scenes a little bit - he goes through a planned, structured sequence of fighting maneuvers (Ti). But mostly it's not as obvious. You've got to look at why he does the things he does, not just what specifically he does.

 

[simulatedworld]

I personally think functional analysis is an overlay on MBTI that doens't work/is really badly used

You also think astrology has demonstrable validity. Your point?

 

[Thalassa]

If you want to see the arguements go see the Mr Holmes thread as this has been discussed at length.

But what sort of ENTP pays attention to every little detail they notice? There a thread up now about how bad ENTPs are at rememberingand noticing details. Yet that is holmes strength!

Hi. I never said he was ENTP. The literary Holmes is supposed to be an INTJ. That's not just my personal opinion.

Also, I took an entire class on Mystery and Detective fiction this past semester and made an A. I've made it my business to reflect upon Sherlock's character, and how he's another (slightly less dark) manifestation of Edgar Allan Poe's Dupin character.

I would definitely not make an argument for ENTP under any circumstance, but I haven't seen the movie, and I know how movies can completely and utterly change from the original literary source.

 

[Bubbleboy]

Downey Jr. (almost) always plays INTP characters. I haven't seen the movie, but doesn't he behave like "himself" in it?

 

[Orangey]

The personality of Sherlock Holmes in the movie is basically an amalgamation of (1) the literary character, (2) Robert Downey Jr., and (3) the Pikey from Snatch (Holmes needed to be sufficiently swashbucklified to provide the necessary Guy Ritchie appeal.) As such, it is useless to talk about either the original character OR Robert Downey Jr. as measures, by themselves, of the film-Holmes' type. Taken all together, I found the film-Holmes to be quite extraverted. I'd say ENTP or ENTJ (the J just because he was lost without work. Wouldn't a P be most at home without work?) I could not see an INTP behaving as he did, and I think any functional analyses used to make him INTP are simply cases of fitting the interpretation to a desired end (namely, the desire that he be INTP because he is 'cool'.)

 

[Venom]

The personality of Sherlock Holmes in the movie is basically an amalgamation of (1) the literary character, (2) Robert Downey Jr., and (3) the Pikey from Snatch (Holmes needed to be sufficiently swashbucklified to provide the necessary Guy Ritchie appeal.) As such, it is useless to talk about either the original character OR Robert Downey Jr. as measures, by themselves, of the film-Holmes' type. Taken all together, I found the film-Holmes to be quite extraverted. I'd say ENTP or ENTJ (the J just because he was lost without work. Wouldn't a P be most at home without work?) I could not see an INTP behaving as he did, and I think any functional analyses used to make him INTP are simply cases of fitting the interpretation to a desired end (namely, the desire that he be INTP because he is 'cool'.)

THANK YOU

Functional analysis is the capstone of MBTI. Without Jung's functions you have overly generalized categorizations that lump people into vague 4 letter categories. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. Introverts will behave this way if it suits their needs. Regardless of how you define cognitive processes, you have to agree that everyone uses multiple faculties of some sort to deal with internal processes and external judgments. If you accept that, I don't see what's so hard to understand about my assertion that extroverted processes are much more easily identifiable in a movie. To get the introverted ones, you have to have inner dialogue, sort of like J.D. in Scrubs. You actually get that during the fight scenes a little bit - he goes through a planned, structured sequence of fighting maneuvers (Ti). But mostly it's not as obvious. You've got to look at why he does the things he does, not just what specifically he does.

1. without jung's functions we have overgeneralized categories? I think with or without functions we are stuck with generalizations .

2. the problem with analyzing people's functions without actually being them is that no function exists in a vacuum. In reality functions are always being mixed together in ways that to the outsider, are easily confusable. The interaction-styles+temperament method appears MUCH more reliable:

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...27-quick-guide-double-checking-your-type.html

A great example of why interaction-styles+temperament is far superior when typing someone other than yourself is the ESTJ vs ENFJ. Based on interaction styles, the ONLY difference between the two types is that ESTJ is concrete, while the ENFJ is abstract.
--They are both affiliative (over pragmatic)
--They are both directing (over informing)
--They are both initiating (over responding)
--They are both In-Charge team styles
the ONLY difference is abstract vs concrete. Using functional analysis, think how hard it would be to get either of these types differentiated when their interactions are so similar? I strongly recommend you take some time to think over the interaction styles method of typing, and how much easier it is to use reliably than peeking inside people's heads .

3. For the record, I am not totally poo pooing functional analysis. I think it works great when you yourself analyse your own motivations like these two pages of Lenore Thompson:

Not Cognitive Processes

Philosophical Exegesis

 

[A592]

Assuming the movie version of Holmes in an INT, can someone please explain to me why he'd be a P rather than a J?

 

[evilrobot]

The literary Holmes is supposed to be an INTJ. That's not just my personal opinion.

I’m inclined to agree after re-reading a few of the stories. Holmes is an eccentric genius: an NT temperament and surely a 5/introvert. INTP would be the next choice, bringing to mind the enigmatic L from the Death Note series, who was partly fashioned after Holmes (I assume). But INTJ seems to fit better.

 

[Uytuun]

Personally speaking
homes = ENTP
Watson = INTJ

thats how I would see it in the books and previous films... Watson was more E in this version of Homes.

I don't know about the books, but Watson in Ritchie's film is no NTJ. An NTJ would clash with Holmes, not defer to him. They make for better villains than they do sidekicks.

 

[Moiety]

Holmes - INTP

Watson - INTJ

Irene - ENTP


Blackcat : Watson is an ESFP?

 

[StephMC]

Wow, I was almost positive on these types, and thought there would be more agreement.

Well, Holmes is definitely an NTP. Ne + Ti, for sure. I would lean towards ENTP, though... He reminded me more of the ENTPs I know than the INTPs I know.

Watson is an ISxJ. I would lean towards ISTJ.

This might be my desperation to find a female ISTP in movies/tv, but I thought Irene was an ISTP :X... Possibly an ESTP. She seemed to use Se rather than Ne.

 

[cant think of one]

half way through watching it i thought for sure he had to be a intp. the voluntary isolation, the restaurant scene, his 'depravity' yet apparent lack of sex life, his obsession with adler..
however, someone was saying earlier that there's no way an intp would be leaping around, brawling with people, but i can tell u, i'm living proof that an intp can most definately engage in fights and other 'adventurous' activities like leaping around a city.. mostly getting into fights.. he doesnt do this because he's a go go action guy, he does it because it interests him. the thought of beating another man to a pulp in the most efficient way possible excites him. the actual beating itself just doesnt do much for him, other than validate his deduction.
i might add that in a real confrontational situation, plotting out your every strike in your head before hand, reeaally doesn't work... but it was cool in the movie.

as for the moments of extraversion, its entirely possible for an introvert, even an extreme intovert, to appear, even feel ultra confident, in front of groups of people. me, for example - when i'm drunk or arguing about something i believe in. from what i gather, Holmes was into his cocaine (which has a somewhat lifting effect) and he was always knew he was right.

there i've done it - related an awesome fictional character to myself in an almost coherant way. you could say it was.. elementary, my dear personality type forum...

 

[Asterion]

CJ I don't buy this..... not a bit, he is so obviously and NT, screamingly so.... N don't ignore detail where is it relevant to what they are doing, they obess about it, its a different type of detail. I do statistics and research, I have to be detailed about a fair bit of what I do... I'm a fully top of the scale N type... but I still know the detail, remember it, find it again..... what I don't do is administration, tidiness etc...

S = use concrete language
N = use abstract language

Homes is oober abstract, things into the neuance of problems etc....


The guys is fiction to this is all conjecture, but never in a million years would I consider him an S type in any of the films etc....

Intuitives will often read deeper into the information they gather, rather than looking at the surface information in depth. That's what holmes was doing, reading motive... which is tertiary Fe business I think.

Agreed.

In this latest movie, he seemed more INTP than ENTP to me.

An (over)confident INTP.

Usually, when you have to add an exeption to a typing, you know that you're overthinking it, or not completely within the boundaries. In the movie, Holmes thought his ideas up on the spot. I can see how he could be an INTP, but he fits ENTP better... XNTPs are pretty similar anyway. As to the person who said he was a five... what the hell kind of 5 would experiment on their dog?

 

[StephMC]

^ Agreed. I feel like INTPs theorize in their heads first (Ti), THEN use Ne to gather information. To me, it looked like Holmes was always gathering information through Ne and then using Ti to piece it together. I feel like the fight scene where he imagined the fight before he completed it was a really good example of an overractive Ne with Ti as a support